questions about nuke program?

[Bigwoodystyl]

This will be rather long, so if anyone who has been through the program could answer my questions, or give me any input whatsoever, I would be deeply grateful.

I don't know where to start...

I'm a 21 year old would-be college senior from the high school graduation class of 2002.  I entered college on a full academic scholarship and spent 2.5 years studying Electrical Engineering.  I was a sophomore in terms of credit before I even set foot on the university; I entered college with 50 hours of Advanced Placement credit.  I had an SAT score in the 1500s and I was accepted to every school that I applied to (including two Ivy League schools)   In retrospect, I had grasped the world by the tail, I truly did, but that sure as hell seems like AGES ago.

Since then, I have made countless mistakes in my life.  (I still have perfect physical health, thank God, but mentally and directionally, I am not where I need to be and I can't figure out why)  I had a great start on being the quintessential American meritocrat and also becoming a technically educated, well-rounded professional in the process. 

Anyway, to make a long story short: I let my grades slip terribly low, lost my scholarships and have been temporarily academically dismissed.  I was told that I cannot register for classes for at least a year.  I was told to get help to remedy my situation.  Over the last few years, I did a lot of things that I shouldn't have (ahh, the advantages/disadvantages of going to a university with a student population of 65,000).  I take full accountability for my actions: it wasn't the right time in my life for me to be away at collegel.  I only wish I would have realized it before I F'ed up my transcripts.  And, I do have a myriad of reasons as to my disenchantment with college and my disdain for the educational system, but those aren't important as they don't specifically pertain to the topic at hand, and I'm trying to keep this post short.


Anyway, I've always been somewhat interested in the military, so I talked to the ROTC coordinator at Ohio State.  He mentioned all kinds of great officer programs that would be great for me, if I could just get my degree first.  However, that's not an option for me at the present time.  (I won't go back yet)  Then, I talked to a recruiter and discussed military options and boot camp.  He mentioned the nuclear program, which I knew nothing about.

So I took a more in depth look.  I researched quite a bit on the internet and did a lot of reading on this forum.  I'm in shape, well-organized and I pay attention to detail.  I can't imagine struggling at boot camp.  (Plus, I need to get my head rescrewed on)  I've taken a look at the coursework that will be covered in A school and Power school, and I'm pretty sure it will be mostly review for me.  (which is good, because even though I've taken some advanced level engineering courses, I think it would be great for me to get basic single variable calc and physics redrilled into my head)  I went to the MEPS and took an ASVAB test (was told I didn't miss a single question on the whole test, got a 99 AFQT and perfect scores across the board).

My next step would be to take a physical and take the oath.  Before I do that, I would love to speak to a nuke who "has been there/done that".  I have full belief that I can do anything if I work at it.  I'm not scared of hard work, long hours, dedication, et al.  Whatever is thrown at me, I can handle it.  In terms of being a nuke, I love nuclear physics, I think it would be great to gain real-life experience working on nuclear carriers/subs at such a young age, and before I started partying, I was halfway through specializing in power within the Electrical Engineering degree.  I have no disillusions as to how hard it might be wearing those heavy suits in 100 degree heat, etc., working on reactors.  I have no qualms/worries about any of that.

I do have specific questions about military life within the nuclear program, however.  Where would I live while in Charleston?  Will I have my own apartment?  What will my actual daily schedule be like?  I'm considering proposing to my girlfriend, what would it be like if I had a fiance/wife?  Will I be able to see her?  How difficult is to get offered a ROTC scholarship or to be accepted to S-T-A 21 programs, etc.?  All payroll deductions aside, what is my actual net take-home pay on an E-3 payscale?   I'll be 22 in a few weeks, how comparatively old does that make me in contrast to what I perceive to be mostly 18/19 year olds??  I have questions like that.

I have other options available to me, obviously, but I really think this is what I want to do.  In addition to everything else, I can look back one day, and say that I served my country.  I could even see myself as career military.  If I had known about this when I were 18, I don't even think it would have been a question for me.  It would have been, "where do i sign?"  My private school didn't encourage the military, however.  The only thing that keeps me wavering right now, is that It is a 6-year committment, and I'm already almost 22 years old.

Anyway, if you made it this far, thanks for reading.  Hopefully you can add something worthful.

I can be reached by e-mail at woody2338@aol.com, and as I said, I really appreciate anyone saying anything.

[Already Gone]

Step One:  Relax boy!!!  You are young, and there is plenty of time.  So, don't commit yourself just yet.
Step Two:  Use this time to explore a variety of options.  The reason they told you to stay away for a year is for just that reason.  It is obvious that (despite your running start) your heart just wasn't in Electrical Engineering.  You might think it was just a lapse of judgement on your part, but even young people (and especially people with 50 semester-hours of AP credit) do not get distracted if you are doing what you love.  The mere fact that you could be lured away means that you just didn't have a passion for what you were doing.
Step Three:  Go back to step one.  Take a lot of trips to the museum, the library, the outdoors.  Keep a record of what you do, where you go, and anything that is interesting to you.  Pay attention to what you are telling yourself.  Eventually, it will lead you to a career.

A navy recruiter has one single duty:  To put people into the navy.  He is not going to tell you that you are overqualified.  He is not going to tell you about NROTC programs for non-scholarship midshipmen.  He isn't going to tell you to take a couple of years to complete your education.  His quota is for this month.  If he fails to meet that quota enough times, he's going back to sea - which sucks no matter what anyone tells you.  He's the guy at Circuit City who is NOT going to convince you to buy a laptop they don't carry, even if it is the best one for your needs.  He may be a genuinely nice guy, and he may honestly care about you, but he's not your career mentor and his duty is not to you.

As it happens, you may decide to enlist in the Navy nuclear program.  Don't put yourself in the position where you will be scrubbing a scummy strainer, up to your armpits in waste oil, and thinking back to today with regret that you didn't think it through completely.  If you hope to be an Admiral someday, go for it.  Just remember that Admirals earn about 1% as much as people with similar ( but less weighty) responsibilities.  If you want to ride submarines for a living - fine.  But, if you really want to do archealogical research you can't do that 600 feet under the surface of the ocean inside a tank full of people and their dirty socks.

Whatever you do, don't do it just because you "can't" do something else.  Wait until that year is up before you commit.  Menawhile, mow lawns or shovel snow to save up some money.  A good menial job is an experience that no young man should miss.

[sometoasteroven]

I do have specific questions about military life within the nuclear program, however.  Where would I live while in Charleston?  Will I have my own apartment?  What will my actual daily schedule be like?  I'm considering proposing to my girlfriend, what would it be like if I had a fiance/wife?  Will I be able to see her?  How difficult is to get offered a ROTC scholarship or to be accepted to S-T-A 21 programs, etc.?  All payroll deductions aside, what is my actual net take-home pay on an E-3 payscale?   I'll be 22 in a few weeks, how comparatively old does that make me in contrast to what I perceive to be mostly 18/19 year olds??  I have questions like that.

Does anyone have an answer to something like that they'd like to post here?

because, i'm itchin for it too.

[rlbinc]

Court of the Beers speaks the truth.
The Navy has opportunities. They may not be the right opportunities for you.

I'm 48, and started my career in the Nuclear Navy 30 years ago. Let me give you some advice.

Clear your head out. I recommend a solid week with Mr Jack Daniels, Old Number 7 on the shelf.

Once you've done that, select person you know and admire. Have a talk about where you'd like to be in 30 years.

In business? Retired? Never Retire? (WTYD Work Til You Drop)

You'll probably notice that the paths are more plentiful for a degreed person than a non-degreed person.

This is not an illusion. I think many ex-Navy Nukes you meet were non-degreed  ENLISTED, because the degreed OFFICERS had enough career mobility to select alternate paths. Think about that.

[Fermi2]

Court of the Beers speaks the truth.
The Navy has opportunities. They may not be the right opportunities for you.

I'm 48, and started my career in the Nuclear Navy 30 years ago. Let me give you some advice.

Clear your head out. I recommend a solid week with Mr Jack Daniels, Old Number 7 on the shelf.

Once you've done that, select person you know and admire. Have a talk about where you'd like to be in 30 years.

In business? Retired? Never Retire? (WTYD Work Til You Drop)

You'll probably notice that the paths are more plentiful for a degreed person than a non-degreed person.

This is not an illusion. I think many ex-Navy Nukes you meet were non-degreed  ENLISTED, because the degreed OFFICERS had enough career mobility to select alternate paths. Think about that.

Uh yeah right. Percentage wise there are just as many ex officers as enlisted in the commercial world. On absolute terms there are less ex officers but that has to do with there are LESS OFFICERS TO BEGIN WITH!!

Mike

[johnigma]

I'm an ET Staff Pickup at NPTU Charleston so maybe I'll be able to answer some of these questions.

Where would I live while in Charleston?  While in A School and Power School, you'll live in a BEQ (apartment) on base, unless you do marry, in which case you'll probably live in Housing.  All of this is in a small town called Goose Creek, about 20 miles NW of Charleston.  Once in prototype, you can live wherever you want.

Will I have my own apartment?  In A School you'll have on roommate, in Power School you'll have your own.

What will my actual daily schedule be like?  PT twice a week at 5:30-6 am, school 7-4, study hours 5-8 (depending on ability)

I'm considering proposing to my girlfriend, what would it be like if I had a fiance/wife?  Will I be able to see her?  I proposed to my girlfriend in A-School and we get married in between that and Power School.  You'll have plenty of time to see her.  I found having her made the whole program easier than some of my non-attached shipmates. 

How difficult is to get offered a ROTC scholarship or to be accepted to S-T-A 21 programs, etc.?  With your background, it should be no problem at all to get picked up for most commissioning programs, specifically STA-21.  The number of nukes who apply and are accepted is pretty good. 

All payroll deductions aside, what is my actual net take-home pay on an E-3 payscale?  Not much.  About $1000/ month Once you qualify and make E-4 you end up doing ok.  At this point as an E-5, I make more than enough to keep myself happy.

I'll be 22 in a few weeks, how comparatively old does that make me in contrast to what I perceive to be mostly 18/19 year olds??  I was 22 when I joined the Navy, as were alot of the other people in my class.  You might be suprised how many of us had problems in college and turned to the Navy.  That's not to say that it's a bad thing.  Joining the Navy and qualifying as a Reactor Operator is probably the best thing I've ever done.  Now, I've got my Bachelor's Degree, which was completely paid for, and I'm quite well set up for whatever it is I want to do down the road.

[blackwater]

I really have to agree with Beer Court here..you need to relax before you make a decision. This isnt something you want to jump into or need too...think of this, you'll still have a nuc job offer in a year, two, three..ect. You get the point.

[Bigwoodystyl]

I still have many unanswered questions, but first, I extend a big thank you to those who took their personal time to write detailed e-mails the past few days: so many people willing to help me for no reason.  So damn informative, full of creative tips and angles that have probably been passed on from generations of nukes...  (I'm on information overload.  There are just too many damn acronyms, though)  To those whom I haven't yet called, thank you so much for even providing your contact info.  I appreciate the opportunity to speak to guys who have done this. I will call, for sure.  As some have pointed out, there is no huge sense of urgency; this navy offer will remain on the table for a minute or two, so I am gathering as much as I can... I view this as a monumental decision.

I am writing most of this simply to put it on paper and to see where I stand with myself.  As long as I'm going to take the time to compose it, I might as well address it to this forum where people have already been more than helpful.  Maybe someone can help, or at the least find my Hamlet-like indecision comical.

Let me state that while I think I could be career military and possibly be happy, my ultimate goal right now is to return to a sensationally high level of productivity.  I do not have money concerns or career frustrations.  I am young; I can manage my not too significant debt, and I can afford to be without a lot of things at this point in my life.

I simply want a return to glory, a chance to reach exceptional heights and dreams that looked readily attainable just a few years back.  That is, before I self-destructed... so if going through boot camp, receiving extensive training and working hard while away at sea for a few years is what I need to get back on that fast track, then time, dedication and undeservedly low pay is an infinitesimally small price to pay.  Not to mention I would be serving my country, that also resonates with me.

In the event I leave the Navy without a degree, outside of the nuclear field, how is the nuke training that is provided in A school, Power school, prototype, etc., viewed in the private sector?  Can one get a decent job outside of commercial nuclear power with just that training alone?  I ask because the Electrical Engineering degree, in contrast, opens the door to most engineering jobs, as well as jobs from business marketing all the way to retail and sales and everything in between.  Is the nuke training similar?  I get the feeling that most nukes (without an additional degree) are locked into doing only nuke work.  Is that an accurate perception?  (Then again, maybe this is not the best place to ask that question, as this is after all NUKEWORKER.com)

For whatever reason, I have an understanding and a deadly intuition when it comes to standardized testing.  Over the years, that test-taking aptitude has certainly increased my academic and career opportunities.  I am not sure if the implications our society places on those tests are fair or not, as I have many friends that I deem considerably smarter than I am who do not score nearly as well.

Not being eligible to enroll in school since May, I had to find things to do to fill my leisure time.  Keep in mind scholastics have been a humongous part of my entire life.  Basically for my own curiosity, I registered and took the GRE, GMAT, LSAT, MAT and MCAT.  I am not sure, however, if I want to attend graduate/professional school.  (After all, I am having serious difficulties with my Bachelor's degree)  Anyway, I studied and prepared pretty intensely for each of them.  With the exception of the MCAT (had never seen the Chemistry) I ended up with near perfect scores on all of them.  I am talking about scores that hands down, undoubtedly would have me accepted to places like Harvard Law School or the Wharton School of Business.  I clearly would need to either start my college career over at a different school or petition the university to have my transcripts "cleaned up" before I could apply to either Harvard or UPenn graduate schools.  That is not much of an option at this point.  Doing that would be a waste of my time, anyway, and I would just mess up all over again (with higher stakes this time) if I cannot find some way back to that aforementioned level of productivity that I used to possess.

I think I would enjoy and thrive in a structured military routine.  If all that is being asked of me is to do the same thing everyone else is doing, I can certainly excel above and beyond most of my peers.  I think I would enjoy the long hours as long as I knew everyone else was putting them in too.  (No Man is an Island)  I have had trouble in the past pushing myself and remaining motivated in unstructured environments.


Avoiding all the nitty-gritty specific details of my life, the technical aspects of any  coursework, job responsibilities and future training, without talking about which military programs and benefits can do what for me or mentioning any kind of physical duties or qualifying for watches, etc.   Without getting industrial or in-depth in the least bit, and only looking at the overall big picture in layman's terms, I have full faith that one day my abbreviated biography could read something like this:

------------------------------
He grew up somewhat privileged in the rich suburbs, stereotypically happy playing video games and football... He traveled the world at a young age and excelled in academics, attended private boarding schools, and earned a scholarship to a land grant university.  He made many life long friends and enjoyed some good times, but his attempted studies regrettably fell short of the mark... He found himself at a crossroads in life, and enlisted and served honorably in the US Nuclear Navy; being specifically trained first in Charleston and then in New York.  Subsequently a few years later he finally earned, from a respected civilian university, the bachelors degree that had previously eluded him.  Uncle Sam paid for it all. He eventually left the Navy honorably at the end of service and used any remaining military benefits to attend The Harvard Law School...  He had a successful business career in [insert career here]

After retirement from business, due to his Ivy League background, coupled with military success and community service while working in the business world, he became popular enough and had met all the unofficial prerequisites to run for Senate/Congress, where he would serve for 2-3 terms while raising a family, specifically a son, who would be groomed to do whatever he wanted in life, including run for President of the United States.  (if he were so inclined)

------------------------------------


I would be OK with that.  With a BS from a top notch engineering school, naval experience/responsibility and a JD from Harvard, I could completely write my own ticket in life.  The great thing about this country is that you can do whatever you want if you are willing and able to work for it.  It's the Old American Dream.  Now that little story above may not be what I ultimately want.  It is a start, though.  The military could be great for me.  I can see it.

Conspicuously missing is what my actual career would be, because I just do not know what I love.  I could do anything I want and be good at it.  It's near impossible to pick something out of thin air and spend years dedicating myself to it if in the back of my mind, I might be happier doing something else.

Common sense dictates that if you aren't certain, then the best option is to do the thing that keeps the most doors open.  Nonetheless, taking the oath and leaving is still definitely in my consideration.  If that is what I decide, there will be no DEP for me.  Once decided, I will be gone... just like that.

I do have other options available to me.

------------------------
I can attempt to put my head to the grindstone and finish my degree by either accepting my year long dismissal or transferring elsewhere.  That might make the most sense, but that's not what is in my heart.
------------------------


I can choose to remain out of school for a while, as I contemplate my future plans.  I have a class A CDL (Commercial Driver License).  I drove trucks regionally one summer back when I was a freshman in college.  A good buddy of mine's grandfather independently owns and operates several semi tractor/trailers.  I'm just now old enough that I can hit the open road and do long hauls across state and international lines  I have no restrictions keeping me where I am.  As long as I drive solo, I can take my girlfriend with me on the road (she is head over heels in love with me and will go wherever I go, no questions asked) and we could basically spend 80 hours a week in the sleeper tractor and have fun in some first class hotels all over the country.  I'd make about $1,500 a week (most likely a good portion would be under the table), which is more than enough money to pay my bills while eating at restaurants every night and staying in nice places.  I would do this all while traveling the country.  As long as I don't have too many miles and as long as I can make my deliveries on time, there is a good bit of freedom.  It would be a good time and a hell of an experience, although it can get absolutely unerringly mind numbing at times.  Another thing: gas is expensive, that cuts into profits.  I'm certainly not your conventional truck driver: the majority can barely read at an eighth grade level.

--------------------------------


I could maybe get hired on a paid internship or a very low salaried entry-level engineer at an automotive plant, engineering firm or software company.  Maybe I could find a startup company and work for pennies, hoping to land a windfall with stock incentives, etc.  Despite my poor academic performance recently, I still have a respectable resume with some great accomplishments and a great work history with impeccable references.  I have a lot of poise in interviews.  I'm not sure how seriously I could get anyone to take me without a complete education, but I might just be able to get hired somewhere great.  I'd have to try obviously, and I might have to relocate.
-------------------------------------


I could travel to Europe and teach English while supplementing my income working a second job as a waiter or such.  There is a big demand for these positions.  You basically take a group of children for a few hours a day and speak English to them and nothing else.  You do not need to be a teacher, just a native speaker with a good dialect.  In return, you get free room and board and a very small stipend, but you also pretty much pickup their language.  Then I would be bilingual.  I might not be any closer to a career, but perhaps my head would be cleared out, and I would be ready to return to institutionalized education fully refreshed.

Or, maybe this would turn out to be one hell of a career move.  As tech jobs become increasingly popular in the Hispanic world, there will be a demand for American-educated engineers/businessmen who can speak Spanish.  Who knows?
----------------------------------------

What I cannot do is go home to daddy with my tail between my legs and tell him that I f***ed up and p**sed on all the great things that were given to me.

--------------------------------------------------



I clearly do not know what to do.  I do know for sure that I am not happy where I am in my life and that I need to make a conscious change before I run out of optimism.  I'm being wasted at a steel wire factory for roughly 12$/hour, with no room for any serious advancement.  I stay upbeat and I joke around with the workers, but I only get up in the morning because I need to sustain myself; I have no passion for it...

[BuddyThePug]

(lots of stuff snipped)

 Without getting industrial or in-depth in the least bit, and only looking at the overall big picture in layman's terms, I have full faith that one day my abbreviated biography could read something like this:

[more bloviation snipped]

what was your question again?

[spew]

join up, big woody style.
nowhere you can't go, nothin you can't do.   6 years is nothing but a chunk of someone else's time anyway.   this whole thing is a free ride.   look around and enjoy the view.  it's not what everyone else wants or expects, it's what you think might make you happy while you're drifting through.   
just step back a little... 
went to a tough tech school for two years, rode around in a sub, saw a few ports, bought a unicycle, sent some postcards...  after that it's up to you.

[JsonD13]

Just FYI, if you want a highly respected (aka Ivy League) engineering BS while you are in it is very difficult to do.  For putting in only 6 years, your first year and a half to two years will be spent in training where you will not be allowed to take any courses (I think you can take CLEPs though).  After your training is over you will probably be on a sea going sub or aircraft carrier (not much time to take classes while deployed).  As far as I know it (this may or may not be accurate) there are very few schools who offer distance learning true engineering degrees as a BS.  I know of a few who offer Engineering Technology degrees (which is what I have) and those can be completed through distance learning.  Many schools offer MS degrees in engineering through distance learning, however most of the admission requirements require a 3.0 GPA and an engineering degree or a tech degree with a few undergrad remedial courses.  The only problem with this would be that you would have to submit ALL your undergrad course transcripts.  I did poorly in my first attempt at college (0.6 GPA for two years) and I am currently in school for my MS in Engineering Management so it is still possible.  So if you expect to be able to attend classes (in a classroom) at a big name school and only put 6 years in the navy your choices are slim to none.

[taterhead]

went to a tough tech school for two years, rode around in a sub, saw a few ports, bought a unicycle, sent some postcards...  after that it's up to you.

I would skip the sub part.

Go carriers. 

[mlgranderson]

Hey Im looking for any staff at NPTU Charleston for a favor.  My buddy showed up there in class 0503, hes a great guy, but as we all know some of us can remmeber books and others shoot the shit, drink beer and have fun.  Hes got the books down but is as introvert officer.  I was a submariner blueshirt, DUI's cut my tour short but now Im spinning civilian turbines and the only reason I got there was was hardwork, the plant blazemasters, and a lot of good guys along the journey.  I truly wish there were do overs in life.  Reply if you can help.  I was a 0207 model.  Be good guys.

[M1Ark]

I still have many unanswered questions, but first,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah
,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah
,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah

but I only get up in the morning because I need to sustain myself; I have no passion for it...

Big Woody Style -

At first I thought you were the perfect candidate for Nuke School on your first post.  I still think that you might be.  But you NEED to do what Court of the Beers said, Relax.  You could possibly need some profesional help.  It's clear to me that you want to be heard and I think you should.

The nuclear navy pipeline is not just about academics and doing your job. It has a lot of highs and lows... an emotional roller coaster if you will.  This is more true if you plan to include a woman into the picture.

BTW,  I don't have a degree and only served for 6 years.  I have had many engineers work for me. Some with double majors in Nuclear/Mechanical eng.  Lots with MS in an Eng. discipline from well respected schools.  I earn a higher salary than most of the engineers at the facility I work.

Remember your earlier statement that you've met friends that didn't test as well as you but you perceived them to be smarter than you?  You've just described a prototypical navy nuke.  I believe navy nukes have a higher than average cognitive level that isn't readily identified by the classic 2-D testing of a traditional school.

My .02 cents

[visserjr]

Big Wood,
I'll be honest with you.... Didn't read your dissertation on War and Peace, but I can assure you, that your story is sooooooo stereotypical of a whole lot of enlisted Navy Nukes. They always start... I was in college....partied too much.....score>>>SAT...Blah blah blah. Seriously man. Relax. put the pipe down, and sign up for submarine service. You may not like nuc school, but nowadays, its cake. Best of luck.

John

[jamesa1rc]

This is a late reply, but I can only imagine the look on the acting NR Director's face while interviewing this guy.  I think someone once said that "Genius is one of the many forms of insanity." 

[graydragon67]

Can I call you Mr Style for short?

Ok, off to the races then.

Yup sounds like you need direction in your life.  Pity, only you can find it.  I hear the pang of pride in the comment of not going to Ma and Pa and saying, "Yup, I messed up big time".  Nothing wrong with that either.

Yes, 6 years is a drop in the bucket if you're living to be a 100.  To the Cook I had on my first boat it was a 1/4 of his life.  Something to think on...

Probably like most people here I'm EX Nuclear Navy and EX College prior to that.  Nothing burned me more than some snot nosed officer coming into MY engineroom and trying to tell me he knew my plant better.  Needless to say, they hated me.  The ENG loved me and the CAP'n didn't give a rat's hinney one way or another.

Yes, there are many great things you can do in this program.  I always found it funny that we go thru this expensive training to end up cleaning every day, sometimes for over 10 hours.  Just on the rumour that NAVSEA 08 is coming to town this month.  Bother!!

If you like working for people that have an excessive knee jerk response, weak backbone or down right stupid but got lucky on a test.  Then yes, join up.  Go carriers or subs it doesn't matter.  If you're going for the schooling, you're well beyond it.  If you're looking for the camraderie that being in a foreign land with a bunch of drunken guys.  By all means, join up.

IF NOT, look elsewhere.  Maybe help in a homeless mission or the peace corps. 

Ultimately the choice is yours.  Isn't it wonderful?  The only truely things we can call our own is the mistakes we've made in this life.  I've made several and I'd never change 'em.  Even that 14 year stint as a Nuke MM.