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Offline Hasher

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #25 on: Nov 05, 2007, 03:12 »
I have appreciated the lively discussion.  

The specifics to my problem here is quite a bit broader than most of the experiences found in a US facility.  

I have had a cold Juice Box out of the fridge at Farley back in the day and was quite glad to have the oppurtunity.  However, that really isn't the isuue here.  

The way a CANDU is laid out poses some unique issues regarding RP.  Most US facilities have one or two exits from the RCA, but you are still well within the confines of the plant or station.  We have two main exits from our operating island, but literally 40 or 50 doorways to go in and out of the RAB / Turbine and still be inside of a Radiologically Controlled Area.  

Consequently, it would take almost 30 minutes to go from a contaminated are (where we have no drinking areas available), monitor, change to civilian clothes, monitor and then get a cool refreshing drink.  Due to all of that, we have water fountains (old fashion press down with your thumb and slurp) all over the place.  Additional to those, we have the old Igloo coolers set up with Dixie cups all over the Turbine Building.

It was not much of a stretch to point out that the program needs some work.  The irony is I am trying to Benchmark a practice that no one seems to perfom.

I do appreciate all of the suggestions and I have contacted three stations so far.  I will also be checking overseas.

As far as general Candu trivia, feel free to PM me and I will try to answer any and all to the best of my ability.  Starting here was like your first day at a DOE site if you are a commercial rat.  Everything looks wrong.  Once you relax and stay a while, you realize that everything has a method and it isn't all madness.
Cheers,

Hasher

Offline Roll Tide

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #26 on: Nov 05, 2007, 03:15 »
Maybe we should add anti-oxidants to the water, and consider it part of our response to dose!

Quote
when mice engineered to be prone to skin cancer were given drinking water containing a two-percent solution of IP6, they were much less likely to develop tumors.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071105083735.htm
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Offline Roll Tide

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #27 on: Nov 05, 2007, 03:23 »
Consequently, it would take almost 30 minutes to go from a contaminated are (where we have no drinking areas available), monitor, change to civilian clothes, monitor and then get a cool refreshing drink.  

I would recommend "clean islands" for a case like this. Rather than having a drink monitored by RP inside an RCA (which most on this board are not real happy providing / monitoring), there is an area that is an island within the RCA. At Browns Ferry, there is a large area set up like this. Security even takes their meals inside there! (Their lunch boxes are moved by laborers with RP oversite in a wheeled wagon with a cover over the top.) 

That is assuming that you can operate personnel monitors inside the plant (never been to a CANDU, so I am assuming background levels similar to low dose areas in PWR Aux Building / BWR Reactor Building). If you really want to boost productivity, add restrooms (I know, probably not in the budget) to the clean islands.

Oconee had clean islands in the Aux Building last time I was there. Water fountains and restrooms only.
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Offline Hasher

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #28 on: Nov 05, 2007, 03:35 »
Now we are talking.  We have similar rooms already.  It is the additional temporary coolers and fountains that are "outside" of these very controlled areas that I am looking into.

Browns Ferry.  Might have to go visit....
Cheers,

Hasher

Offline snowman

Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #29 on: Nov 07, 2007, 03:06 »
We allow the drinking of water in not only RCA's but CA's,  HCA's, and ARA's. Yepper, you heard right little fellar, HCA's/ARA's!

How do we do it? Since we have all but phased out the wearing of full face negative pressure particulate respirators, we wear PAPR's with paper hoods instead. This allows the user to wear one of those little backpacks with a water reservoir built in to be worn under their PC's and then snake the drinking hose up into the hood. Voila!!, ice cold drinking water while wearing two pair and a mask! This is an approved method per the manufacturer. We're not just shootin' from the hip around here, ya know!

And the reason for allowing this is worker comfort, keeping folks hydrated and preventing people from falling out. It's not just about production though the cynics will tell you it is. We have regulations limiting how long folks can wear a respirator of any type continuously without break.

As for drinking water in the CA, places have been doing that for years. Here, we simply set up a table at a boundary, monitor workers hands and face, and allow them to reach over and take prefilled cups of water. The old days of no eating, drinking, etc. in an RCA are over and gone here, good riddance. It really was a they-do-it so-we-do-it regulation that had no technical basis for it.

You sound like a reasonable, intelligent individual. Set up a program, write a procedure or white paper whatever you call it up there (eh?) and implement it. Fine tune it as necessary. Good luck, you'll be wondering what took ya so long.

Offline fueldryer

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #30 on: Nov 07, 2007, 03:45 »
At Ringhals in Sweden, you simply take off you shoe covers at the SOP, step into the monitor and help yourelf to coffee,water and even internet access.Of coarse they are'nt assinine when you have a pci either.
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Offline xobxdoc

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #31 on: Nov 07, 2007, 04:08 »
we get conjugal visits at Calvert.

Offline Hasher

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #32 on: Nov 08, 2007, 09:35 »
You sound like a reasonable, intelligent individual. Set up a program, write a procedure or white paper whatever you call it up there (eh?) and implement it. Fine tune it as necessary. Good luck, you'll be wondering what took ya so long.
[/quote]


I like the portable supply.  I wish I had that hydrolazing transfer canals years ago.  As far as the issue here, we have water.  Everywhere.  That is the problem.  We have a Coffee shop for christ's sake in the middle of what passes for our "RCA". 

I suspect I will be suggesting that we perform routine monitoring on all of our drinking fountains and that we require a "clean zone" (with monitoring and routines) to be established for each of our temporary water coolers.  The problem with all of this is I have a permanent staff of 27 technicinas for ten operating units, two mothballed units and a total of three stations.

I want due diligence, with a touch of sanity.  It is crazy to double the daily survey load just to monitor a practice that has been in place for 40 years without a documented problem.  None of the station managers are going to just accept "a program, write a procedure or white paper whatever you call it up there (eh?) and implement it" without one hell of lot of push back.

I can't say I blame them.  The information here has been really good.  Ultimately I have to demonstrate that we are over-extended on our available water.  Once I show that nobody has a program this expansive, I will suggest we shrink the temporary coolers available dramatically and monitor them better.  I will probably suggest we migrate to foot pedal operation of our fountains and lastly, I will get concurrence to proceed with a procedure.

Oh yeah, then implement it.  No problem.  lol  Too much fun.  Thanks again.
Cheers,

Hasher

Gonzo

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #33 on: Nov 08, 2007, 11:50 »
If you're soooooo hot that you just HAVE to have a drink inside of a CA, you're probably also "too wet to be working inside of a CA."

Leave the RCA, don dry clothes, get a drink, then return to work. 


truth is, the actual health concern of radiological contamination, even ingestion, doesn't come close to comparing with the health concerns associated with heat stress.  There's no reason why workers can't water up while in the zone with a modest amount of control. 

The drinking station at columbia mentioned above is 'hands free' and works extremely well.  It is a very inexpensive piece of equipment.  The original one used there a few years ago was made, I believe in someone's garage at home. 

tera_rogue

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #34 on: Nov 09, 2007, 01:16 »
This topic touches my rather ENLARGED HEART. I will try to make this brief. I am a female Sr RP (10+) that fell-out during an outage fall of 2005. No big deal right … Wrong. When you are understaffed, working the bottom two elevations and can hear yourself walk into containment you know you are in trouble. I was in contact with the powers to be during my jump making them aware of the situation and that people would be falling out if something did not change. No fluids available, CMT elevator OOS. I do not know how many people I sent out of CMT due to heat stress; one did exit the plant via ambulance. Lucky for me I had an exceptional Junior or I would have never walked out after my jump.  I was told five people fell-out during our shift (at least the reported ones) including me.  All lower containment, two were boundary guards. When I came out I was soaked, by then my Supervisor was (very aware of the situation) waiting for me and was in the process of at least getting water to lower CMT. By the way, I think very highly of this individual and have no doubt he did everything in his power, unfortunately the people he answered to said if we needed water we could go to the refuel floor, they had water there. Yes sir, let me understand, I should stop work in lower CMT (cause my Junior, no matter how outstanding, is not qualified to cover work), then in heat stress conditions, I should tackle the steps (elevator OOS) from lower to upper … Right … that is not a production, dose or safety issue.
With heat stroke on the paperwork, I was transported by ambulance to the hospital. After being packed in ice for four hours, they decided to take my core temperature, how convenient, my core temperature fell right under the cut-off for heat stroke so I fell into the category of heat exhaustion. Doctor’s orders, I was off for two days recovering (three days and workers’ comp enters the picture) then back to work like an idiot still in a daze. The utility did address heat stress during the following safety meeting and did indeed put out the fact that the reason the female Sr RP fell-out was due to the fact she did not have anything to eat or drink for two days … how interesting … need I say more.
After lay-offs I went home, I thought I had walking pneumonia since my chest hurt, it was difficult to breath and I was extremely tired. Long story short … I ended up in the hospital with an ejection fraction of 10% and the doctors telling me for some reason my heart was so enlarged and weak that I needed a heart transplant. They know it happened suddenly; I tested negative for every test under the sun. Diagnosis…Idiopathic Cardiomyopathy.  I am unable to work or do almost anything I used to do. I have responded very well to medication to strengthen my heart, I have an ICD and will do the best I can for as long as I can. So ask the permanently disabled me if I would have minded any of the temporary consequences of a convenient water station.
Bat Man, I also have never encountered a problem concerning water stations and your opinion should not be humble. You said it all … “I would rather run the very low risk of a small ingestion of radioactive material as apposed to falling out from heat...any day”
Let me add my lifestyle has always been extremely healthy. Never smoked, social wine drinker, low-fat diet, no fried foods, no red meat, no salt, no coffee, no drugs, a very physically fit 5’3” size 5. The doctors told me if I was not as healthy as I was, I would not be here … end of story.

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #35 on: Nov 09, 2007, 01:43 »
   
   
   
   100k dpm Co60Y (ingestion sALI 200 uCi) = .001 REM CEDE





« Last Edit: Nov 12, 2007, 11:21 by wlrun3 »

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #36 on: Nov 09, 2007, 03:35 »
tera_rogue, I am sorry you had the experience you did and I understand that it is sometimes not easy to make a stand when it is vital to do so, but a resounding YES you should have stopped work in lower containment or the ENTIRE containment if necessary before you or anyone else got into that kind of trouble. The situation you were in was dangerous and it is doubtful that drinking water would have solved the probelm. Yes, it would have made it better, but the situation was one that no one should have been in to begin with. Far too many people have the attitude of 'gee, I can't just stop the work.' Yes, you can and you are obligated to do so if the stiuation is not safe... and it obviously wasn't -- not just for you but for everyone else.

The problem is not with drinking water it is with expectations. We all talk on this site about being treated (and paid) as professionals. The only way that will occur is we act like professionals and take responsibility for ourselves and those around us. I guarantee that whatever utility you are working for will ask for more than you should be willing to give. WE have to draw the line in the right place that keeps people safe. All of the places I have worked have (at least for the last few years) been very vocal about safety. Every time I have done initial entries, heat exposure has been a major topic of conversation at the pre-job brief. Don't let the utilities pay lip service to safey, hold them to it. I believe that most of the people in supervisory positions really mean what they say about safety, and if they don't there is someone on site that will enforce the rules. If that fails, then LEAVE. This job is not worth dying over and you know full well that if you take risks with heat stroke, that is what we are talking about. Never let the utility put you in a position that is not safe.

The utilities are going to keep pushing to shorten outages and get more work done in less time with fewer people. They will do whatever they can to get more work out of fewer people and we can only blame ourselves if we let them. If people are willing to work 5 or 6 hour stretches in containment without a break, that will become the norm. If we let ourselves get put in positions that are not safe then that, too, will be the norm. You are not doing yourself or any of the rest of us any favors by meeting unreasonable demands. Putting your health at risk is an unreasonable demand. Just say no.

You stated that you were 'soaked' when you came out. In most plants it is a violation of the RWP to stay in a contaminated area in soaked PCs. You also stated that you sent several people out due to heat stress. Why didn't you send yourself out before it was too late? If the answer is that the utility 'expected' you to stay there, then shame on them. If you let that be the reason you put yourself in danger, then shame on you.

Again, I am sorry that you were injured and I hope that you never let yourself or anyone else get in that situation again. Water is not the ultimate answer. We as a group and as individuals need to stand up for the things we believe in, and I personally believe in taking care of myself and the people I am covering. If only one person takes a stand, it makes it more difficult and, yes, someone might get first layoff or not get invited back for the next outage. But if the alternative is putting your life at risk, then run, do not walk, to the nearest exit.
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tera_rogue

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #37 on: Nov 09, 2007, 08:39 »
I agree with you one-hundred percent.  I knew I would get ripped when I posted. Rest assured, I have never had a problem stopping work or taking a stand. When I was sending people out of lower CMT I was stopping work. Face it … we have all been in bad situations in less than ideal working conditions and try to work things through … YES, in retrospect it is very easy to say I should have shut down CMT or refused to work. Thinking back now it is easy to question my actions. Yes, I was soaked but working lower containment does that to you sometimes with the chillers running. Did I ever feel I was putting my life at risk … NO … DEFINITELY NO. For the rest of my life I will pay for my error in judgment.
So the lesson reiterated here is … Just Say No

Offline B.PRESGROVE

Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #38 on: Nov 10, 2007, 09:07 »
Excellent discussion ya'll.  Yes this does enforce the practice stop work and should be a great reminder of the dangers of heat stress.  Working in the chemical ops for several years and then in RCO for several years I have seen first hand the results of heat stress, and its not pretty. 

I was afraid to anger some of the more outspoken members of the forum with inconvenient facts.

Dont facts save lives though? 

Offline PWHoppe

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #39 on: Nov 10, 2007, 10:00 »
I was afraid to anger some of the more outspoken members of the forum with inconvenient facts.

Never fear stating an opinion or what facts you may be privy to. That is what this site is all about, open and honest discussion. 8)

Remember anyone who gets angry will either get over it or die anyway. ;)
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Offline B.PRESGROVE

Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #40 on: Nov 16, 2007, 06:41 »
Hey the stating facts quote in my last entry was a paste from another post.  Still havent learned how to make it look like yalls with the box around it.  Thanks for the support though.

Offline PWHoppe

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #41 on: Nov 16, 2007, 08:03 »
Hey the stating facts quote in my last entry was a paste from another post.  Still havent learned how to make it look like yalls with the box around it.  Thanks for the support though.

Go to the post you want to quote and hit the quote button on the upper right. You can even delete stuff from the post you do not want to include. ;)
« Last Edit: Nov 16, 2007, 09:54 by PWHoppe »
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Offline UncaBuffalo

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #42 on: Nov 16, 2007, 08:24 »
Just a note...'cuz I learned this the hard way...

Water is NOT enough sometimes ... you must replenish your electrolytes, too!

I had been coming out of the cavity (plastics & respirator) at regular intervals.  Each time, my PC's would be wringing wet, and I'd dump a half cup of water out of each glove.  I'd get plenty to drink, but we only had water, so... After my fifth dive, I started cramping so bad I couldn't even stand up.  Everything was fine after I got some potassium supplements, but... 
« Last Edit: Nov 16, 2007, 08:46 by UncaBuffalo »
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Offline Scorpio51

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #43 on: Nov 27, 2007, 12:58 »
I've been an HP since '75 and have gradually come around to water in the RCA (specifically in the RCB duruing an outage).  Harris has two areas.  One just outside the PAL is a combination cool room with a pedal operated fountain.  The other on the refuel floor is a cooler with paper cups.  The cooler is inside a roped off area with signs instructing workers to remove gloves prior to entry.  A container is provided for the contaminated gloves and a box of replacements is located near the cooler.  The understanding with the workers is abuse the system and go thirsty.  Both places have been in place for the last three outages with no problems.  Both areas are surveyed shiftly.

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #44 on: Jul 09, 2008, 04:01 »
I know at VY we have a pretty good set up. During outages we have a trailer set up right by our drywell entrance. actually before you can go into the drywell you need to go through the trailer and talk to RP for your brief. When you're done with your work in the drywell you doff your PCs at the exit boundary, which is the same everywhere. You then have to go through the trailer to turn in your radios and extra dosimetry. when you are in the trailer you can get bottled water. RP is there to monitor people drinking, the bottles are sealed and cold, and there is no risk of contamination. It's a win for all for everyone.
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Offline johnnieslingshot

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #45 on: Jul 09, 2008, 03:11 »

Nine Mile Point has a sweet setup  on their refuel floor.  They have a Butler building where the supervisor or lead tech sits and had direct communication with the HP's on the floor and where they keep track of dose.  If someone needs water all they have to do is have HP monitor their face and then put on a new pair of surgeons gloves and the supervisor will hand them an open bottle of water thru the window.  worked very well and we had no facial contaminations.

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Re: Drinking Water in radiological areas
« Reply #46 on: Aug 30, 2008, 12:39 »
Having seen this (and used them) in the RCA during RFL's - they are great for those in need of a drink during heated periods of time.

My background as the LELT on our boat made me very squimish about it - but in the Commerical World - things are a bit 'different'.

Simply put - if you can control people from wiping their face with crap and provide a foot operated chilled water fountain, I think you're good in letting them have a swallow of water while they're sweating their collective arses off.

I've yet to see anyone have an issue with it or suffer adverse consequences as a result of having this kind of setup available.

YMMV

 


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