Enlisted vs. Officer

[taterhead]

Shipmate,

As I was reading this thread, I was thinking of how I may be able to convince you an Officer Program is right for you.  Then I came across your last entry.  You answered your own question here.  As long as you consider applying for the program as “A BOTHER”, you need not pursue it.   Remain enlisted, get some experience (AT SEA), then reevaluate.  Your career decisions need to be based on far more than the difficulty of the application process.

JB

I used to have a CMC that used to tell our best Sailors to get into the "Seaman to Master Chief" program.  I liked that.  I never wanted my best Sailors to be officers.

I successfully resisted the temptation to put in a LDO package.  I only had to look at how "beat down" our LDO's were in department.

[JustinHEMI05]

Shipmate,

As I was reading this thread, I was thinking of how I may be able to convince you an Officer Program is right for you.  Then I came across your last entry.  You answered your own question here.  As long as you consider applying for the program as “A BOTHER”, you need not pursue it.   Remain enlisted, get some experience (AT SEA), then reevaluate.  Your career decisions need to be based on far more than the difficulty of the application process.

JB

Here this is for you. Oh, and here is a secret... not everyone wants to be you.

Justin

[PapaBear765]

Can everyone stop already with the rudeness and lack of civility?  How about treating each other with a certain minimum level of respect?  If you have something condescending to say to someone, do it via PM not in the thread.

Where's a Moderator when you need one?

[Cycoticpenguin]

I'm just starting MM A-School.  I'm most likely going to go the enlisted route, I was just trying to get a bit more information before I decided on whether or not to bother with the officer package.  If I get selected for ELT, I think I'd be interested in a QA job.  If I don't, I really have no clue what I'd do with the MM experience.  Also, I've got an AAS in MET already.  Would it be a wise idea to continue toward a BS in ME, NE, or both (With MM or ELT experience)?

Also, I don't think the thread has gotten too off topic.  All of the information I've read has been helpful.

hope you realize EVERYONE ON THE SHIP has to qualify QA right? Not to mention  you arent gaurenteed squat. It sounds to me like you need to have a long chit chat with your LCPO about your job, because you obviously have no clue. That said, worrying about QA and ELT is pointless. Focus on becoming an MM to begin with.

[JustinHEMI05]

hope you realize EVERYONE ON THE SHIP has to qualify QA right? Not to mention  you arent gaurenteed squat. It sounds to me like you need to have a long chit chat with your LCPO about your job, because you obviously have no clue. That said, worrying about QA and ELT is pointless. Focus on becoming an MM to begin with.

Shouldn't you be studying something? Leave the kid alone. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

Can everyone stop already with the rudeness and lack of civility?  How about treating each other with a certain minimum level of respect?  If you have something condescending to say to someone, do it via PM not in the thread.

Where's a Moderator when you need one?

Are you serious? Nukes have been eating their young since the beginning of time. Why would it change now? And here of all places? Pfft.

 

Seriously though, why people suddenly attacked this kid is beyond me. I think he was just looking for guidance but others (mike and cyto and LDO) too offense to his comments and lack of knowledge for some reason. Out of those three, one doesn't even know what he is taking offense to. Can you guess which one?

Justin

[Cycoticpenguin]

Shouldn't you be studying something? Leave the kid alone. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Justin

what are YOU talking about? Everyone on the ship has to qualify 3m/QA and craftsman.... and this guy obviously does not know his job (he's in a school). I learned more from talking to my chiefs in A school then I did from my instructors. (sometimes the same person )

[Fermi2]

Oh pish posh, I know exactly what I took offense to, a NUB posting something, then saying that he didn't really know to begin with. If he didn't know to begin with he shouldn't have posted.

As for Cycotic, he's a NUB too. When he gets qualified the other NUBs should pay attention, until then well you know!!

Mike

[DDMurray]

what are YOU talking about? Everyone on the ship has to qualify 3m/QA and craftsman.... and this guy obviously does not know his job (he's in a school). I learned more from talking to my chiefs in A school then I did from my instructors. (sometimes the same person )

   Every nuke on every submarine has to qualify PQS 301(3M) and QA Craftsman (Also sometimes called QA 301).  I don't know if surface ships have to do the same, though I'm sure they have to qualify 3M PQS 301. 

    My take on this thread is that the original question left some of us thinking this guy must be pretty high on himself since he's in A school and acts like going enlisted is his back-up plan (My initial thought: "Dude you already made that decision!")  .  Quite frankly Cycoticpenguin, based on some of your questions and observations in other posts, I question the sageness of your advice/observations.  Sometimes the best way to learn is by observing and keeping our thoughts to ourselves.   

    I think everyone else is bashing each other for the perceived tone of the responses.  I doubt seriously there lots of enlisted guys who literally clean bilges for 60 hours a week every week.  It may seem like it sometimes, but that alone should not be the reason to go officer.  On some boats the officers help clean the bilges.  If you want to be an officer solely because it's better than being enlisted, then do so (or attempt to do so).  If you have such low opinion of enlisted men, how do you plan on leading them?  Throwing your collar devices around will get you so far, but in the end, the best officers are those who share a mutual respect with those who they lead, and I've seen or read very little of this in this thread.

   One last thought, if I had it to do over again, I would have applied for every officer program I was eligible for.  Somebody told me that once, but I was too smart for them.  Though I've had a pretty successful nuclear naval career, in the back of my mind I may have not maximized my potential.

[JustinHEMI05]

what are YOU talking about? Everyone on the ship has to qualify 3m/QA and craftsman.... and this guy obviously does not know his job (he's in a school). I learned more from talking to my chiefs in A school then I did from my instructors. (sometimes the same person )

He isn't talking about 3m.

Justin

[Loffy Muffin]

Gee, ask a simple question....which is better ogang/egang for commercial power?  this thread is comical.  Reminds me of that commercial where someone is choking and you have 10 knuckleheads discusing the different ways to clear the throat and one guy does it while you have 10 people bickering.

Straight up, the LT with an engineer degree and 5 years in the Navy is going to be hired over an E-5/6 getting out at the 6year point but....There should be jobs for the 6 and splitters.....so:

...its not worth the extra commitment required to get the paid for degree and come back to uncle sam for the payback as an officer. You'll have 12 long years invested for that degree.  Six and split, if you are alright with commercial ops. This assumes, and it is a safe assumption, that the demand for commercial operators will continue in the future and will be there in 2012 when you get out.  They should just be building plants by then and need people to train to operate them.  You should be set up nice.  You can go to the interview and ask them why you should consider taking their training and 6 figure salary when you have so many others that are demanding your services.   Or you can go officer and just be getting out of engineering school (at best) and looking at 5 more years in the Navy at ensign pay. 

Is the freaking horse dead yet?

[Gamecock]

Gee, ask a simple question....which is better ogang/egang for commercial power?  this thread is comical.  Reminds me of that commercial where someone is choking and you have 10 knuckleheads discusing the different ways to clear the throat and one guy does it while you have 10 people bickering.

Straight up, the LT with an engineer degree and 5 years in the Navy is going to be hired over an E-5/6 getting out at the 6year point but....There should be jobs for the 6 and splitters.....so:

...its not worth the extra commitment required to get the paid for degree and come back to uncle sam for the payback as an officer. You'll have 12 long years invested for that degree.  Six and split, if you are alright with commercial ops. This assumes, and it is a safe assumption, that the demand for commercial operators will continue in the future and will be there in 2012 when you get out.  They should just be building plants by then and need people to train to operate them.  You should be set up nice.  You can go to the interview and ask them why you should consider taking their training and 6 figure salary when you have so many others that are demanding your services.   Or you can go officer and just be getting out of engineering school (at best) and looking at 5 more years in the Navy at ensign pay. 

Is the freaking horse dead yet?

Don't forget those years of college count towards retirement!!!

5 Years of Ensign pay? 
2 years of O1E pay, 2 years of O2E pay, 1 year of O3E pay....

Decide to stay in at this point....
O3E pay...+25K/yr nuke bonus..that equates to more then $100K/yr

Now the other part that your missing is the other opportunities that are there for your taking as a nuclear trained officer.  I got a Masters degree in Engineering Management from Old Dominion University for next to nothing.  All nuke officers can do this!!

Now I'm getting a masters degree in Nuclear Engineering from MIT..paid for by your tax dollars....thanks to the navy.

There are other programs out there....chances to get MBA's from Harvard or other extremely prestigious universities.  What will your starting salary be after getting an MBA from Harvard???  As an officer, you will get a master's degree...maybe even multiple masters degrees.

Bottom line....

Stay navy...get commissioned.....retire...gua ranteed income for life...then move on!!!  Start a second career while your still young and viable.

And the best part...the part you can't put a price tag on...the opportunity to lead the best and brightest that this country has to offer. 

[ddklbl]

I got a Masters degree in Engineering Management from Old Dominion University for next to nothing.  All nukes can do this!!

To get accepted through the Navy College Program, only those that are graduates of Officer NPS are eligible.  Well, eligible for the 12 credit hour waiver. 

This is a snippet from an email I dug up in my outlook archive

Your message was forwarded to me for reply.  I've attached a summary of our program guide which should answer your question.  The admissions requirements for the CD-Rom option are straightforward.  For a student to be awarded the 12 credit hours of advanced standing for he Navy's asynchronous program, graduation from the Officer Nuclear Power pipeline is a requirement.  This is because the officer program is the only curriculum that has been reviewed and certified for transfer credit toward the Master of Engineering Management Program. 

But, yes. I agree. There are many opportunities available, otherwise.

[sfrederick]

You're right, you're a NUB who knows nothing about nuclear power, I'm a former ELT who somehow has managed to obtain 3 license from the NRC. In about 15 to 18 months you'll be qualified to comment.

QA and ELT are not related, they are totally different functions.

Mike

I apologize for the confusion.  I want to be an ELT in the Navy, then change careers and do QA in the civilian sector.  I wouldn't want to be an ELT for too long; might become a rageaholic.
Now, I started with a reasonable question and I did my best to answer the questions that were asked of me afterwards (which admittedly, I wasn't prepared to answer).  If my answer to the question had any consequence other than Broadzilla's misplaced rage, I would have said that I really don't know (rather than trying to start somewhere).
As for applying for an officer package being a "bother", I already plan on staying enlisted.  I didn't enlist as a back-up plan--I already made my choice.  My intent in starting this thread was to gather the last bit of information I wanted to rule out the officer program (because I don't plan on retiring from the Navy).  Thank you for your time.

[JustinHEMI05]

I apologize for the confusion.  I want to be an ELT in the Navy, then change careers and do QA in the civilian sector.  I wouldn't want to be an ELT for too long; might become a rageaholic.
Now, I started with a reasonable question and I did my best to answer the questions that were asked of me afterwards (which admittedly, I wasn't prepared to answer).  If my answer to the question had any consequence other than Broadzilla's misplaced rage, I would have said that I really don't know (rather than trying to start somewhere).
As for applying for an officer package being a "bother", I already plan on staying enlisted.  I didn't enlist as a back-up plan--I already made my choice.  My intent in starting this thread was to gather the last bit of information I wanted to rule out the officer program (because I don't plan on retiring from the Navy).  Thank you for your time.

You didn't do anything wrong. Sometimes people take things the wrong way. Just look at this thread. Welcome, congrats, and good luck.

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

Oh pish posh, I know exactly what I took offense to, a NUB posting something, then saying that he didn't really know to begin with. If he didn't know to begin with he shouldn't have posted.

As for Cycotic, he's a NUB too. When he gets qualified the other NUBs should pay attention, until then well you know!!

Mike

Mike,

I missed this one. Come on Mike, you know its not YOU that I was referring to when I said that someone didn't know what they were taking offense too. Of course it was the nub bashing nub.

Justin

[Cycoticpenguin]

He isn't talking about 3m.

Justin

QAI? Thats the only other thing I can think of. In that case its definently not ELT exclusive. Im confused what he's assuming ELT's have that MM's dont (besides that C school of course).

SubNukederek and Broadzilla - I give advice based on my experience through the pipeline. I personally feel that I give the freshest, unbiased opinions on things that go on. While I am wrong sometimes (I am first to admit it!), I believe that while, YES I am "nub" (kind of, Im not going to get any steaming watches in the ship yard anyway), I still am knowledgable enough to help young sailors make decisions to better themselves. If telling people to talk to their khaki's to pick their brain is "misguidance", Im sorry...

[JustinHEMI05]

QAI? Thats the only other thing I can think of. In that case its definently not ELT exclusive. Im confused what he's assuming ELT's have that MM's dont (besides that C school of course).

SubNukederek and Broadzilla - I give advice based on my experience through the pipeline. I personally feel that I give the freshest, unbiased opinions on things that go on. While I am wrong sometimes (I am first to admit it!), I believe that while, YES I am "nub" (kind of, Im not going to get any steaming watches in the ship yard anyway), I still am knowledgable enough to help young sailors make decisions to better themselves. If telling people to talk to their khaki's to pick their brain is "misguidance", Im sorry...

The simple fact of the matter is, as illustrated by this post, that you don't know your place.

Justin

[Cycoticpenguin]

The simple fact of the matter is, as illustrated by this post, that you don't know your place.

Justin

can you elaborate please? Im more confused then anything.

[taterhead]

I think everyone here is ready for spring!!!!  Cabin fever is getting to us....

[JustinHEMI05]

can you elaborate please? Im more confused then anything.

See your PM.

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

I think everyone here is ready for spring!!!!  Cabin fever is getting to us....

No kidding! I was finally able to get out riding last week and it was sorely needed! We should have a nukeworker.com meet and greet sometime that way we can all drink and fight together

Justin

[PapaBear765]

No kidding! I was finally able to get out riding last week and it was sorely needed! We should have a nukeworker.com meet and greet sometime that way we can all drink and fight together

Justin

A get-together???  It would resemble that scene from Eurotrip in the English pub, only with a lot more swearing and yelling....great idea!

[Fermi2]

LOL a get together would be great. I bet I'm the only one there who tells the truth 100% of the time. NO "This is a no shitter" stories coming from me.
























Honest!!!!


Mike

[DDMurray]

SubNukederek and Broadzilla - I give advice based on my experience through the pipeline. I personally feel that I give the freshest, unbiased opinions on things that go on. While I am wrong sometimes (I am first to admit it!), I believe that while, YES I am "nub" (kind of, I'm not going to get any steaming watches in the ship yard anyway), I still am knowledgable enough to help young sailors make decisions to better themselves. If telling people to talk to their khaki's to pick their brain is "misguidance", I'm sorry...

Cycoticpenguin,
I recognize you give advice based on your experiences.  Telling someone to talk to a Chief is the wisest advice you could give; but based on several of your posts in other threads, it appears to me that you asked questions in nukeworker vice talking to your Chief or any Chief on several occasions.  If somebody asks the value of an officer program who can best answer that question:
1. Someone who has taken that route?
2. Someone who has many years of experience working with officers and enlisted in several different work environments?
3. Someone who just finished school and has limited or zero at sea nuclear operator experience?
4. Someone who has no navy nuclear experience whatsoever?
5. Someone who loves the navy?
6. Someone who hates the navy?

My point is if somebody asked a question on transitioning from pipeline to a boat in shipyard, you'd have a fresh, knowledgeable perspective.  If someone asks a question that has ramifications many years from now, who is better?  You can disagree with my recommendations, but I doubt the perspective of someone who's never stood a watch on an operational ship or applied to an officer program adds much value to the discussion.  I wish you nothing but the best, but I stick by my original post. 

Derek Murray
- Boot Camp and EM A school Great Lakes (had to graduate top half of class to continue on to nuke school, waiverable)
- NPS class 8502, S3G prototype
- USS CASIMIR PULASKI SSBN 633B(Charleston, SC, refitted in Kings Bay, GA) (qualified EWS, served as ELPO by end of tour)
- NPS staff (Orlando, FL)(Section Advisor, Instructor, earned Bachelor's degree, advanced to CPO)
- USS HAWKBILL (Pearl Harbor, HI)(ELCPO, 2 Westpacs, 1 Eastpac, 3 month availability in PSNS, qualified Chief of the Watch, Diving Officer of the Watch)
- NNPTC, Orlando - moved to Charleston (Instructor)
- PCU/USS JIMMY CARTER (Initial manning, advanced to SCPO, TAD as hot fill for six month Iraqi Freedom deployment, Advanced to MCPO, did all power range testing and acceptance sea trials, took ship to Bangor, WA)
- COMSUBRON FOUR EDMC (Have had the honor of riding 3 different classes of SSN's: S6W, S6G, S9G)