Navy Nuc oops!

[rumrunner]

I remember when we would go on pre-ORSE watch teams.  Five and Dimes for several weeks for three lucky groups of watchstanders - and I got the call more than once in my Navy life.  The reasoning was simple.  They wanted us to all be in the same wavelength and to react in the same way.  In other words, a show. 

I got to do the primary for ORSE twice in my Navy life.  In both cases it was with a four-striper (Captain).  And in both cases I did what I thought was a 4.0 job, but the zero had to make his expected comments about little things which "might affect" the outcome of the sample.  They never invalidated my samples, but simply wrote up their notes and zipped out of Nucleonics and I never heard another word.  And thus the show was over.

[Already Gone]

My problem with stories like this is twofold.

First, integrity is one of the principles of the program.  You guys hide behind "I'm smarter then the watch officer and I therefore know better" persona if you want to make yourself feel better....but I openly question your integrity.  You guys chose the easy way out vice doing your job properly.  All nukes, officer and enlisted, are called upon to ask questions when they arise.  Instead of thinking the watch officer is an idiot or a jackass, take the time to show him why he's wrong and your right.  If he still disagrees, use your chain of command.....LPO, LCPO, DIVO.   There again, this is watchteam back-up, another principle of the program.  Blatantly disregarding an order from a senior is wrong, wrong, wrong!!!!

Second, there are lots of nuke wanna-be's and junior nukes who read these posts.  You openly advocate "getting one by" the watch officer.   These young guys are going to take that advice to heart and think that is the way things get done in the fleet.   Your are advocating actions that are contrary to the collective good.  Shame on you!!!

Oh, if Barry Jackson or any other watch stander, officer or enlisted had told me he was going to do whatever he wanted vice what I said as the EOOW, we would have issues.  I would have called RL Div LPO, LCPO, and CRA to the box and we all would have had a discussion in regards to formality, compliance with procedures, and disrespect prior to me authorizing the add.

Before you slam on me for not understanding what I speak of, I was enlisted for eight+ years prior to getting commissioned, so I have walked a mile in your shoes.

All I can say to that is don't be so full of yourself. -- Which was precisely the problem with those very junior officers who changed additions.  They, for some inexplicable reason, believed themselves to have the superhuman capacity to discern the difference between 350 grams and 360 grams on those nomographs.  We're talking about a blurry copy of a semi-logarhythmic graph that had been marked up, laminated, measures with a rusty ruler, and not so damned accurate to begin with.

We're talking about a snot-nose who thought that proving he could read a graph better than the ELT was justification for making my logs look like $h!t - even assuming that he COULD tell the difference between 350 and 360, the extra 10 grams would be about the same amount that got rocked up on the screen of the fill funnel, or spilled in the bilge, or left stuck to the walls of the beaker ... etc.

We're talking about people who relied on us to save their nuclear reactor from melting, but still thought it wise to treat us like children by continually correcting our work.  That got fixed, one way or another.

We are NOT talking about ELT's falsifying records or disobeying orders.  We are talking about good ol' Barry getting the message through to a JO that "I know what I'm doing.  I don't need you to micromanage my job.  It will be done properly.  We need to trust each other."  The officer understood completely, knowing that Barry's comment was only partly in jest.

I did, as LELT, have the opportunity to "counsel" these young officers - usually over beers - that they were not empowered by Congress to alter a log entry that was made by a watchstander (the add calc made by an ELT) even if they were authorized to review and approve that entry.  I "instructed them" in the proper method of keeping themselves from looking like idiots and committing it to paper.
They almost all got the message, and we got along fine.  By the time their bars turned silver, they stopped questioning us and started asking us questions.  (Ponder the subtle difference for a moment.)

The officers who had a clue learned to depend on the white-hats; they learned to trust, respect, and rely on us.  We gave them good reason to do so.

I learned at a young age that the duty of an enlisted man was to make the officers look like the geniuses that they wished they were.  You let them take credit for every brilliant move you make, and you stop them from making blunders that will embarrass them.  They, if they are smart, remember who did what to keep the CO from dumping on them.  Officers who are praised by the Captain are easier to live with than the ones with his boot up their a$$.
When they became CO's themselves, they pretended that their JO's were as smart as they seemed to be. 
There is a lot of "winking and nodding" involved in the politics of a boat, but none of it amounts to a lack of integrity or deliberate misconduct.  It is the way men deal with each other, and it has always worked.

[Marlin]

All I can say to that is don't be so full of yourself. -- Which was precisely the problem with those very junior officers who changed additions.  They, for some inexplicable reason, believed themselves to have the superhuman capacity to discern the difference between 350 grams and 360 grams on those nomographs.  We're talking about a blurry copy of a semi-logarhythmic graph that had been marked up, laminated, measures with a rusty ruler, and not so damned accurate to begin with.

We're talking about a snot-nose who thought that proving he could read a graph better than the ELT was justification for making my logs look like $h!t - even assuming that he COULD tell the difference between 350 and 360, the extra 10 grams would be about the same amount that got rocked up on the screen of the fill funnel, or spilled in the bilge, or left stuck to the walls of the beaker ... etc.

We're talking about people who relied on us to save their nuclear reactor from melting, but still thought it wise to treat us like children by continually correcting our work.  That got fixed, one way or another.

We are NOT talking about ELT's falsifying records or disobeying orders.  We are talking about good ol' Barry getting the message through to a JO that "I know what I'm doing.  I don't need you to micromanage my job.  It will be done properly.  We need to trust each other."  The officer understood completely, knowing that Barry's comment was only partly in jest.

I did, as LELT, have the opportunity to "counsel" these young officers - usually over beers - that they were not empowered by Congress to alter a log entry that was made by a watchstander (the add calc made by an ELT) even if they were authorized to review and approve that entry.  I "instructed them" in the proper method of keeping themselves from looking like idiots and committing it to paper.
They almost all got the message, and we got along fine.  By the time their bars turned silver, they stopped questioning us and started asking us questions.  (Ponder the subtle difference for a moment.)

The officers who had a clue learned to depend on the white-hats; they learned to trust, respect, and rely on us.  We gave them good reason to do so.

I learned at a young age that the duty of an enlisted man was to make the officers look like the geniuses that they wished they were.  You let them take credit for every brilliant move you make, and you stop them from making blunders that will embarrass them.  They, if they are smart, remember who did what to keep the CO from dumping on them.  Officers who are praised by the Captain are easier to live with than the ones with his boot up their a$$.
When they became CO's themselves, they pretended that their JO's were as smart as they seemed to be. 
There is a lot of "winking and nodding" involved in the politics of a boat, but none of it amounts to a lack of integrity or deliberate misconduct.  It is the way men deal with each other, and it has always worked.

A lot of truth here. I had a JO EOOW who virtually gave me a valve for valve direction for enginroom startup, it was tedious and cumbersome. When the Engineer was the EOOW, my orders were EWS start up the engine room. We tended to view the JO's as senior officers in training that being said we had plenty of nub enlisted on board that needed to get a handle on things, that usually happened about the end of their first tour of sea duty.

[ddklbl]

[...]
I'm spewing milk out of my nose at all the former O-gangers here who claim to have consistently busted the ELT's on their BS.  Brother, you only caught the easy ones.  Every ELT has a bad day once in awhile, but the ratio of times that you threw the flag to the number of times that they put one right past you would require scientific notation to fit on this screen.  There was a reason we called you Zeroes.

I used to "love" those times when some JO decided to change the S/G additions by 10 grams, when we consistently added 50 grams "for the pot" anyway.  Those nomographs said one thing, but we knew how much to really add to get the numbers we wanted.  No Lt. (j.g.) with a ruler and a 5th generation Xerox copy of the nomograph was ever going to change that.  My favorite instance was when a smirking EOOW told Barry Jackson that he had changed his calculation.  Barry's answer told the whole story:  "It doesn't matter, I'm going to add what I want anyway."
[...]

[...]
We are NOT talking about ELT's falsifying records or disobeying orders.  We are talking about good ol' Barry getting the message through to a JO that "I know what I'm doing.  I don't need you to micromanage my job.  It will be done properly.  We need to trust each other."  The officer understood completely, knowing that Barry's comment was only partly in jest.

I did, as LELT, have the opportunity to "counsel" these young officers - usually over beers - that they were not empowered by Congress to alter a log entry that was made by a watchstander (the add calc made by an ELT) even if they were authorized to review and approve that entry.  I "instructed them" in the proper method of keeping themselves from looking like idiots and committing it to paper.
They almost all got the message, and we got along fine.  By the time their bars turned silver, they stopped questioning us and started asking us questions.  (Ponder the subtle difference for a moment.)
[...]

Interesting, the first quote is definably divisive, and the latter more amicable.  Excuse me if I continue to question yours and others sincerity in the matter.

Yes, a-holes like that were and will always be a pain in the ass.  As marlin said, operating in atmospheres such as that can be tedious and cumbersome.  So is the business of the nuclear navy.  What would the harm be in doing the EOOW's 10 gram amended add?  What would it hurt, your pride?  The worst thing that could happen is the after add would come back... exactly the same.  So be it.  My whole point is that people want to argue and prove whose member is the largest, i.e. my crow trumps your college degree.  Get over it and do his add.  Take the after add results and show him the actual outcome compared to his and yours expected results.  Prove to him the differences between theory and reality.  I don't mean to confine this argument to chemistry, it applies across the board. 

What I am trying to say is there is training to be had in each and every evolution we do.  The only thing you taught the EOOW, with comments such as "I'll just do it my way, regardless" is to not trust you.  No matter what you say, comments like that are not made in jest.  That is the underlying culture that will poison a department. 

BC, Hydro, Rummy... I am not lecturing you.  Well, I am, but I acknowledge the weight my words have on you... none.  The fact of the matter is, these boards are read by baby nukes ...and others.  It's crappy attitudes like "my way", verbal or not, and the subsequent "integrity bending", that truly poison a department.  If that is how you truly feel, as I read in your posts, then I am glad you are all out of the Navy.  That way you can't corrupt anyone else.

edited to be in compliance with rule #6 lest anyone should be distracted from what I am saying by how I chose to say it

[HydroDave63]

It just really bothers me that Moderators and other established members of this forum would condone and advocate this behavior... <snip>

You follow the rules.  <snip>

If that is how you truly feel, as I read in your posts, then I am glad you are all out of the Navy.  That way you can't corrupt anyone else.

Speaking of following rules, please check out Forum Rule #4. 

[ddklbl]

Speaking of following rules, please check out Forum Rule #4. 

Reading that, all I can think of is standing in line at the galley in boot camp...

"Hands off my Brightworks, Shipmate!"

[JustinHEMI05]

I think this thread is probably starting to cross some lines. Perhaps we should all agree to disagree. After all, this argument has been going on since time immemorial and will continue long after we are all dead and buried. Its the nature of the beast. As long as there are officer and enlisted, there will be officers who think they are "all that" and enlisted who will know better. Vice versa. But, there will also be both officers and enlisted who are humble enough to admit when they are wrong and work together for the common good. Either way, nothing we say about it here is going to change anything. We certainly don't need to start attacking careers, integrity and intelligence.

To put it another way... stow the egos and STFU.

Justin

[Marlin]

To put it another way... stow the egos Justin

Nothing wrong with a healthy ego, that being one with room for other healthy egos. If you are a Navy Nuke, a wanna be, or ex-Navy nuke you are awash in them... its best to grow a thick skin and get use to it.

[JustinHEMI05]

Nothing wrong with a healthy ego, that being one with room for other healthy egos. If you are a Navy Nuke, a wanna be, or ex-Navy nuke you are awash in them... its best to grow a thick skin and get use to it.

I don't disagree with that in any way. I am just saying that this thread is probably beyond the scope at this point.

Justin

[Loffy Muffin]

After reading this thread now I remember why I hung out with conners.

[Rad Sponge]

Yeah, I think this discussion has reached the point of diminishing returns. I don't think calculating Tri and Di adds had anything to do with the Hartford.

[rumrunner]

I don't think calculating Tri and Di adds had anything to do with the Hartford.

Thanks for the reality check and getting things back in perspective.  The Hartford appears to be a case where the chilling effect of one officer's command style destroyed the morale of a ship that was in Battle E glory less than two years earlier.  And in the wake of this, many careers lie in ruins - both enlisted and officer.  Unfortunately, as is often the case, those most accountable and responsible for the calamity will be allowed to quietly retire, while the junior people face the prospect of finishing their active duty obligations as de-nuked pariahs.

But allow me one more story to show how crazy some orders can be!  On the Texas in 1981 (CGN-39), we had a significant loss-of-feedwater casualty one night in the middle of the Atlantic.  Lost all feedpumps in #1 plant while running a flank bell.  The throttleman froze and didn't do what he needed to do fast enough.  Two of the three generators were so far out of sight low that we figured they were close to being dry.  We had bad hideout anyway, and now I come down to relieve the watch and find a scrammed plant and secondary chemistry is unknown.  Now comes our brilliant Chief Engineer, who orders me to add chemicals to make the generators - and I quote - "10.75 and 280".  Not 10.8, or 10.9, or even 11.0, but 10.75.  Of course I had no samples to base an add on, and my experience told me that adding anything was going in the wrong direction.  Thankfully he stormed off to micro-manage someone else, and I headed to EOS where my shift's EOOW had just taken over.  Thankfully he was a full Lt. who had an abundance of common sense - we all loved standing watch with him because he treated us like human beings.  I told him what the Engineer told me and he laughed, called the Engineer an idiot, and told me he'd kick my butt if I even reached for the blue and brown cans.  We then returned generator level to normal and I was able to get samples - which were bad high.  We had to do several blowdowns to get things back in shape, and we went a good while before having to do another add.  The good thing about this episode was that the hideout problem in those generators went away.  I guess the shock to the system had a beneficial effect.

[Marlin]

Yeah, I think this discussion has reached the point of diminishing returns. I don't think calculating Tri and Di adds had anything to do with the Hartford.

The Hampton, try and keep up.

Some horses aren't declared dead until the flesh has been flogged from the bones.  It is hard to be off topic when the thread essentially starts with "check this out".

[Ranger88]

Beercourt,

Integrity didn't even come into play.  We did what we knew to keep the plant in shape and the numbers in spec - sometimes despite the guidance we got from the khaki-klad-klub.

Integrity didn't come into play because you didn't have any.
I'm sure you talked/talk a good game to yourself but never have/had the guts/integrity/trust/reputation required for your chain of command to have listened to your recommendations or reasoning.  Instead of doing the hard thing like making recommended changes and seeing them through you played the lone ranger.
I am sure your overall effect on the nuclear navy and those you have worked with has been much more negative than positive.

As far as disrespect to the JO's, that's an easy game, especially when you aren't man enough to speak your mind.  Showing them respect, training them, working with them is much harder and takes a man not a boy.  I am amazed since you were so smart they didn't just promote you to a NAVSEA 08 position. Oh, that's right you were enlisted like the rest of us because your weren't smart/motivated enough to get/finish a degree or get a commission as an LDO based on merit.

You sure spend allot of time on this forum, either: a) you have a computer at the RCA were you are running the frisker or b) you are so smart and have done so well since the Navy that you retired as a millionaire and like to spend time on the computer lending your expert opinion.

Your nickname wasn't "Spaz" was it? You remind me of the ELT that added to the wrong SG.

I guess I would trust you running a frisker, as long as I could see the readout too.

LOL

[Fermi2]

Beercourt,
Integrity didn't come into play because you didn't have any.
I'm sure you talked/talk a good game to yourself but never have/had the guts/integrity/trust/reputation required for your chain of command to have listened to your recommendations or reasoning.  Instead of doing the hard thing like making recommended changes and seeing them through you played the lone ranger.
I am sure your overall effect on the nuclear navy and those you have worked with has been much more negative than positive.

As far as disrespect to the JO's, that's an easy game, especially when you aren't man enough to speak your mind.  Showing them respect, training them, working with them is much harder and takes a man not a boy.  I am amazed since you were so smart they didn't just promote you to a NAVSEA 08 position. Oh, that's right you were enlisted like the rest of us because your weren't smart/motivated enough to get/finish a degree or get a commission as an LDO based on merit.

You sure spend allot of time on this forum, either: a) you have a computer at the RCA were you are running the frisker or b) you are so smart and have done so well since the Navy that you retired as a millionaire and like to spend time on the computer lending your expert opinion.

Your nickname wasn't "Spaz" was it? You remind me of the ELT that added to the wrong SG.

I guess I would trust you running a frisker, as long as I could see the readout too.

LOL

Grow up child.

Mike

[rumrunner]

b) you are so smart and have done so well since the Navy that you retired as a millionaire and like to spend time on the computer lending your expert opinion.

That's me!  In fact I retired in January at the age of 51.  I love it!

[shovelheadred]

....I stayed out as long as I could...Jason-YP were you an ELT?,,if not you don't know the magic...tell me how to do a morpholine sample...maybe a PH sample..I know you can do a conductivity,,or maybe a turbidity,,just drop a couple drops in the jar..what color is it?

and DD..shut up..you K%&$$ A$$..your post will not get you a raise

...this was never brought up, but the whole RL division could have done this to burn a watch officer that burned them...do not tell me this doesn't happen.....I got burned by a watch officer, not over my ELT abilities, over a personal matter..and I did my job, and waited,,,but his old lady burned him, when he came home unexpectantly from a cruise..

All of this "the new ELT's are a bunch of slugs..and the grey haired ones radioed their logs is a bunch of CR%^p...I do not care who you are, surface or sub, at one time or another, you either radioed a log, adjusted a valve to make a temperature come into spec next hour..didn't bite enough end off the wire..or spit sunflower seeds on the panel when the watch officer wasn't looking..

none of you are perfect...and that is what some of you are trying to portray yourself as...I like Beercourt and Rumrunner graduated from that canoe club in the 80's...I haven't drawn a primary sample in over 20 years, and don't want to...I have made a little moonshine,,,and grown a cash crop behind the barn....but again like beercourt( who you slammed for his computer time, what he does with his time is his business) and Rumrunner who is retired...I work very little,,,make a good dollar,,,enjoy reading what you wet behind the ear know it all's write...because I did my time, I did my job, I trained my relief, and when I got off watch, I left it in the Nuke Shak...along with a smell of a skunk..oh, sorry we were in before the urinalysis....so keep em coming girls, I enjoy a good comedy show as much as the next guy....red

[cincinnatinuke]

....I stayed out as long as I could...Jason-YP were you an ELT?,,if not you don't know the magic...tell me how to do a morpholine sample...maybe a PH sample..I know you can do a conductivity,,or maybe a turbidity,,just drop a couple drops in the jar..what color is it?

And I avoided this portion of the topic until now.  I know Jason personally and I think you are at a point in calling him out where you are reacting on pure emotion and COMPLETELY missed his point.  Jason merely asked that the discussion get back on topic, but you see where its gone since his plea?  You  reacted when folks called Rumrunner out since you knew him personally and I am asking you to show the same courtesy here to a friend of mine.  Jason was an ELT ( a sub ELT so cut him some slack) and I have worked with him commercially as a Chemist.  He has also got a fair amount of HP time (qualified SHP....which may not hold the same weight it once did) and now is an operator.

And Jason, before you get all mushy, remember I'm from Alabama despite my handle and have no real emotions.  So enough of the Oprah, life partner talk.

As for the rest of this topic..................You are all NAZI's!!!!   Sorry.  But as heated as it was getting I figured I would throw that one in, since according to that wonderful You tube video I saw here a few weeks back, it was inevitable.

[Rad Sponge]

And I avoided this portion of the topic until now.  I know Jason personally and I think you are at a point in calling him out where you are reacting on pure emotion and COMPLETELY missed his point.  Jason merely asked that the discussion get back on topic, but you see where its gone since his plea?  You  reacted when folks called Rumrunner out since you knew him personally and I am asking you to show the same courtesy here to a friend of mine.  Jason was an ELT ( a sub ELT so cut him some slack) and I have worked with him commercially as a Chemist.  He has also got a fair amount of HP time (qualified SHP....which may not hold the same weight it once did) and now is an operator.

And Jason, before you get all mushy, remember I'm from Alabama despite my handle and have no real emotions.  So enough of the Oprah, life partner talk.

As for the rest of this topic..................You are all NAZI's!!!!   Sorry.  But as heated as it was getting I figured I would throw that one in, since according to that wonderful You tube video I saw here a few weeks back, it was inevitable.

Thanks, buddy. I am truly touched that you have my back.

Now I must get back to the fuel floor.

You mentioned magic. ELT is not magic. Watching hundreds of people take apart a reactor and put it back together again, now that's a trick.

[JustinHEMI05]

I am out of pop corn. 

Justin

[rumrunner]

I am out of pop corn. 

Now that's where I draw the line. I never ate in the nuke shack.  I only drank coffee and bug juice in there.

I guess this thread is headed for deletion or closure by the staff.  Based on my experience as an admin on other forums, it probably needs it.  But all I can say is it is a shame that some of us come in and make a few honest comments about A FEW episodes over long periods of time, and some others decide to wrap themselves in the Navy banner, hold a copy of the 0152 in their hands like the holy grail, and commence to judge others based solely on what they wrote here - having never served with us or even knowing us.  Yet we are unethical scumbags - just because of what we wrote in this forum.  I guess this is a good weekend to reflect on that.

[shovelheadred]

...OK...so I put my 2 cents worth in...not tootin my own horn...I got out of RP in 91..went with Master-Lee as a manipulator crane operator,,so that magic you are talking about..is muscle and equipment...and knowledge of limits and locations, and working off the SRO's license,,no magic to it...I now work for Beercourt, as safety oversight, with GE Turbine group,not a safety tech.I am working a coal plant now...you can have the Nukes, give me a UNION MILLWRIGHT,,and a crane operator and they can turn the world upside down...so give me some credit, as not being an RP....Broadzilla knows what it takes to move fuel on his license,,and that radioing a sample, or missing a dose rate doesn't come close to the response you will get from the NRC,when you go to the wrong location in the core,,and just attempt to lower the grapple,,stop the outage, go to the green table,,,fines, loss of millions of dollars..and his license...so there you go....give credit where credit is due...red

[Fermi2]

...OK...so I put my 2 cents worth in...not tootin my own horn...I got out of RP in 91..went with Master-Lee as a manipulator crane operator,,so that magic you are talking about..is muscle and equipment...and knowledge of limits and locations, and working off the SRO's license,,no magic to it...I now work for Beercourt, as safety oversight, with GE Turbine group,not a safety tech.I am working a coal plant now...you can have the Nukes, give me a UNION MILLWRIGHT,,and a crane operator and they can turn the world upside down...so give me some credit, as not being an RP....Broadzilla knows what it takes to move fuel on his license,,and that radioing a sample, or missing a dose rate doesn't come close to the response you will get from the NRC,when you go to the wrong location in the core,,and just attempt to lower the grapple,,stop the outage, go to the green table,,,fines, loss of millions of dollars..and his license...so there you go....give credit where credit is due...red

Well said.

Mike

[fueldryer]

Where the hell are you that there are hundreds of people taking apart a reactor and putting it back together again?I've been taking apart reactors and running minipulator cranes for 20 years and never once seen hundreds of people doing that part of the work.And as Red said it's not magic at all..