How would you fix the NNPP

[JustinHEMI05]

I understand the point and need for monitoring organizations. But, my problem with NRRO is that it is out of control, in my opinion. I feel they go beyond the scope of their task and have more power than they are supposed to have. To illustrate (yes I am full of sea stories about the things that P me off ):

ME as EDO doing paperwork in maneuvering during a horrible long and painful outage. The weather is also especially crappy out, IE 6inch snow/half hour.

Chief of WMFO field office enters.

ME "Good morning, Sir."

Him "Good morning."

Dead silence for a few minutes. I, hating dead silence and the feeling of ignoring a senior, I make some small talk.

ME "I hope the snow stops soon. Its going to be pretty treacherous on the way home tonight."

HE and ME continue some small talk about the weather, other things.

Next day. I get called to PMCs office. I proceed to get a butt chewing for being too and I quote the comment, "buddy, buddy" with the Chief of the WMFO field office. *SIGH* PMC suggests I don't even acknowledge them when they come in, and especially don't talk to them.

That same day standing EDO for something like the 110th time this shutdown, a more junior WMFO member enters. I take PMCs advice and ignore them. But he does not notice me ignoring him and tries to start small talk.

HIM: "So how about all of this snow? Pretty crazy, huh."

ME: "I am very sorry, Sir. But I am afraid I cannot engage you in small talk while on watch as EDO. I was talked to about this today and would appreciate it if we could avoid the same situation."

HIM: "Oh, I am not like that, don't worry." Then leaves.

Next day: Called to PMCs office for another butt chewing for "complaining" to a WMFO guy about getting a butt chewing for talking to a WMFO guy. 

And the circle continues. In my opinion, you are damned if you do and you're damned if you don't with those people. Granted, there have been a few good NRRO people, but as a whole, I think that organization is out of control. COs need to step up and smack them down once in a while instead of caving to their every whim. And please, don't tell me I don't see the big picture because that is BS.

In contrast, my first experience with a resident NRC inspector what in the control room during a reactor START UP and based on my experience with NRRO, I thought I had to treat them similarly. Boy was I wrong. This guy is the coolest guy I have met yet, and in fact we are probably going to end up being pretty good friends. And guess what, no one chewed my butt the next day for being "buddy, buddy" with the NRC inspector. What I have learned is that there is a time and place for things like small talk, and the like. What NRRO/NNPP needs to learn is that its OK to smile and shoot the breeze once in a while. Nothing is going to melt.

Justin

[Preciousblue1965]

Believe me Justin, I know the pain.  I personally knew 3 guys before they "turned to the Dark Side" and became NRRO Sith Lords.  They were pretty cool guys before hand, and on a couple of occasions outside of the fence even expressed to me that they hated having to make the BS comments that they did.  Most of the time they told me that they had to have X number of comments or they weren't doing their jobs properly or weren't looking hard enough.  The nicer ones were generally the ones that had not done their required sea tour yet, the whole thing about burning bridges and defecating where you consume food thing and all.  Luckily the last one that I knew was an ELT and was stupid smart, i.e. memorize chapter and verse to just about any procedure and had like a 3.8 on final EOOW board, but I didn't have to watch his turning seeing as I got out before he was Official.  Whatever happened to NRRO was here to help up operate, not create an air of superiority that is both misplaced and overindulged. 

[Wirebiter]

Justin- Sounds like the PMC should have grown a pair and took one for you.  Was he trying to make E-9 or something? 

[War Eagle]

Justin- Sounds like the PMC should have grown a pair and took one for you.  Was he trying to make E-9 or something? 

Nah; if I were to speculate, the WMFO chief made a small remark to the PM who overreacted and called the PMC to his office and told him to counsel Justin. Same thing with the junior field office rep.  But I agree that the field office has KSO by the short hairs.

[cincinnatinuke]

I want to make an obervation without being too general or appearing that I offer no solution, so here goes.

When I first got to Charleston for NFAS and NPS the sea returnees there all seemed to enjoy the Navy.  I remember thinking I have the coolest job on earth and all these "diggits" were reaffirming my warm and fuzzy about all things nuclear.  At that point in time I wanted to re-enlist, i wanted to say in, I wanted to make chief and above and be a super cool know it all with a chest full of candy.  I even thought I could be an officer, command a vessel, or go LDO and be a super freaky chief only I get saluted.  My section advisers all seemed to enjoy the navy.  My instructors all seemed to enjoy the navy.  I remember there was a retirement every week (or so it seemed) for some chief or above and those were cool to witness either first hand or from a distance.  IOW I wanted what they had.

Overall there was a level of professionalism that I never saw again.  My instructors pushed hard and I worked hard.  I got those pats on the back, we have been speaking of.  I did well....actually better than well I did great.  I made a decision with my wife to go to NPTU Ballston Spa and work hard and become a SPU (never did get to be a SPU though).

Prototype was an experience I will never forget.  *Disclaimer*  I qualified week 13 on the 24 week schedule and was top mechanic GPA wise and second overall GPA wise, so i wasnt a dirt bag. 

Prior to exiting the off crew phase, the off crew master chief saw me in the galley eating lunch.  He noticed my work ethic (coming in early and staying late, ahead of the curve, helping other guys in my section, being section leader.........hey I was diggit once !) and told me I was student of the week or month or whatever.  I get a special parking space yadayada.  But then he asked me for my opinion of this place, so not wanting to waste an opportunity I told him, respectfully, that the quality of sailor here was different.  And no offense to you guys there now or then or ever, but the average sea returnee seemed to be of a different caliber.  He responded that he was well aware of it.  There is a pervasive attitude of bitterness and hatred toward the navy, other sailors, "them/they", and especially students.

I loved my job still, but I grew to dislike the many people I worked for and with.  I feel the environment there fostered this.  I find that we as a community both nuke and especially in the submarine world (no experience with the surface fleet) feed on our own.  It was a culture of "well i had it bad so I am going to give every nub hell seven fold."  Pay it forward nuke style I guess.  I wont get into specifics of things I dealt with in my time, but if you can imagine a nub with a wife and two young girls its not hard to imagine my buttons.

So I read with real interest Justin's comments about the civilian nuclear sector.  Its just as demanding, just as technical, and probably more rewarding.  But those comments of positvie reinforcement have got to come from the bottom up as well as top down.  I mean we complain of how we were treated, but how about how we treated others.  Can we really demand this type of one way street rationale?

I would comment more but I figure I will listen to the feedback first.  I feel as though my thoughts arent all in order.

[93-383]

Another problem I saw during my sea time was the total lack of motivation that some junior personnel had for qualifying, this primarily became a problem when the ship started aggressively following the Navy’s hazing policy (convitction at mast would result in maximum award for all involved or in the room when it happened). Since we can’t beat them any more perhaps big Navy should consider re-structuring the SDAP program and provide  significant financial incentive to qualify senior in rate. I’ll just throw out a number $500

[PapaBear765]

Well, I'm just now checking back in to NukeWorker on my days off and coming into this thread late.

1. A few people have posted "how much do students really learn at ptype?"  Not enough to make it worth it, I think.  I think ptype should be 3 months long (total) and the goal is not to qualify them as a watch stander, but rather to hit them hard with as much watch standing as possible.  One thing I believe in strongly after my short time in the navy is that the more times someone sees a casualty and takes the I/A's the better s/he'll be each successive time.  That would do the fleet the greatest service: send them newbies with some experience beyond the minimum 5 watches for quals.

2. I don't need positive reinforcement.  And those of you who do need to lower your standards/expectations.  Dirt bags excluded, I haven't worked a nuke yet who doesn't mind working a +12-hour day if he knows that he'll get compensated the next day by either getting cut loose after quarters or not coming in at all.  No one is in the navy for the money.  A sailor's time off is the most motivating incentive his leadership has.  Don't ask him to work until after dinner on Thursday when in-port and then tell him he has to stay until 3pm on Friday because of GMT on financial management, then attend the stupid command picnic on Saturday to be followed by duty on Sunday.  It will drive a guy to drink.

3. And the navy reg's say nothing about getting time off for having duty on the weekend.  What the MILPERS Manual says is that if you have duty on the weekend and it's a holiday on Friday[Monday], then you get Monday[Friday] off.  I also tried to point that out, and was fired as Logroom Yeoman for "being a cancer."

[PapaBear765]

And the pieces of the puzzle get filled in bit by bit,........heheheheheh,...

Logroom Yeomen do it IAW the instruction.

[LaFeet]

 Wow  is it really that messed up   When I was in we had to graduate the "Heartbreak Ridge" type of school - aka Hard knocks.  I came in at the butt end of the Zumwalt era..... and it was not unheard of to be physically challenged when answering a question incorrectly.....

 I also know that we had a very tight band... comaradre (spelling?) even between the nukes and the coners.  I guess I was lucky in that I was assigned to 2 unique boats, and the additional requirements that were imposed upon them made us a tighter bunch.

 Good luck to all serving or are going to serve, and thanks to those of you who have served....

ET1(SS) Lafeet

[JustinHEMI05]

Justin- Sounds like the PMC should have grown a pair and took one for you.  Was he trying to make E-9 or something? 

He was an E9.

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

Nah; if I were to speculate, the WMFO chief made a small remark to the PM who overreacted and called the PMC to his office and told him to counsel Justin. Same thing with the junior field office rep.  But I agree that the field office has KSO by the short hairs.

I tend to agree with you (not sure who the overreaction came from), which also further makes my point. They have more power/say than I believe they were meant to/supposed to have.

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

I loved my job still, but I grew to dislike the many people I worked for and with.  I feel the environment there fostered this.  I find that we as a community both nuke and especially in the submarine world (no experience with the surface fleet) feed on our own.  It was a culture of "well i had it bad so I am going to give every nub hell seven fold."  Pay it forward nuke style I guess.  I wont get into specifics of things I dealt with in my time, but if you can imagine a nub with a wife and two young girls its not hard to imagine my buttons.

So I read with real interest Justin's comments about the civilian nuclear sector.  Its just as demanding, just as technical, and probably more rewarding.  But those comments of positvie reinforcement have got to come from the bottom up as well as top down.  I mean we complain of how we were treated, but how about how we treated others.  Can we really demand this type of one way street rationale?

I would comment more but I figure I will listen to the feedback first.  I feel as though my thoughts arent all in order.

Nice post, thanks. I agree 100% with first paragraph I have quoted. I saw this mentality at prototype big time while I was there. There was defenitely the attitude of having to treat people the way they were. It was even so bad at one point, that some guys tried to out do each other in how big a douche bag they were. I never subscribed to that thinking and corrected it when I saw it. Students tended to love me because I treated them with respect and dignity, like people. I hated when I saw fellow officer trainers crap on officer students and brag about it "because they could." Don't get me wrong, I don't think the blue shirt is innocent in all of this. And, just so you know that my pre-bitterness resume (you already knew I loved my first 2 years on the boat), I am 100% sure I was the biggest diggit the Navy ever saw. I flew a Navy flag (big deal, just wait:)), I won both the honor recruit and military excellent awards at boot, was the first qualifier in my class (number 2 GPA by a point), my computer played Anchors Aweigh when booting up... and another version shutting down (told you to wait for it ), always had mirrored boots and military creases, etc. I just don't want you to think that I was some dirt bag who is not "complaining" in this thread. Nope, I was a giant diggit, hard charger (which even my bitterness didn't stop) who turned bitter and hate full because of the cycle you talked about. Somewhere, the cycle needs stopped and I believe, it has to start with the COs and go down from there.

And papa, good for you that you don't need a pat on the back. I however, do and I won't lower my expectations on that. Could be my big ego that needs recognizing but whatever it is, I am not going to change it just because you don't need the positive reenforcement. Otherwise, I agree with your points.

Justin

[PapaBear765]

Nay nay moosebreath(favorite saying of one of my old Chiefs)

My first chief referred to "Spray 9" cleaner as "goat piss"

[PapaBear765]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the blue shirt is innocent in all of this.

We have more blame than most would care to recognize.  Think about all of the critiques you've been to or heard about.  What if when an RO hosed up a pump shift when a pump failed to start in fast speed he said it was because he had never paid attention at divisional training; never ran through some scenarios in his head while on watch; was trying to beat the fastest time for shifting pumps... we'd have a lot less standing orders, policies, requirements, instructions, and procedures.  If each person at a critique when asked why he did what he did said, "I didn't understand what I was doing because I haven't been studying as much as I should be," things would be a lot better.

Studies on psychology in the workplace for people with a lot of responsibility and stress (nukes) deteriorates proportionally to how much autonomy is taken away from them by supervisors.  The less control a guy has over how he does his job will make him more disgruntled.

The drastic and impossible change that we all desire from the naval leadership has to come simultaneously with an equivalent change in the working class.

[JustinHEMI05]

We have more blame than most would care to recognize.  Think about all of the critiques you've been to or heard about.  What if when an RO hosed up a pump shift when a pump failed to start in fast speed he said it was because he had never paid attention at divisional training; never ran through some scenarios in his head while on watch; was trying to beat the fastest time for shifting pumps... we'd have a lot less standing orders, policies, requirements, instructions, and procedures.  If each person at a critique when asked why he did what he did said, "I didn't understand what I was doing because I haven't been studying as much as I should be," things would be a lot better.

Studies on psychology in the workplace for people with a lot of responsibility and stress (nukes) deteriorates proportionally to how much autonomy is taken away from them by supervisors.  The less control a guy has over how he does his job will make him more disgruntled.

The drastic and impossible change that we all desire from the naval leadership has to come simultaneously with an equivalent change in the working class.

More good points. Blue shirts are always the first to throw a fit when a new SO is issued or more monitoring becomes required but when asked "well how could you possibly blow DRT water all over the bilge if you didn't need a SO and the EWS there?" they don't have an answer or do have some lame excuse.

Justin

[Preciousblue1965]

It seems that this thread has triggered a bit of reaction amongst the breatheren.  Good, Good give into your feelings, let the power of the Dark side flow through you.

[Preciousblue1965]

More good points. Blue shirts are always the first to throw a fit when a new SO is issued or more monitoring becomes required but when asked "well how could you possibly blow DRT water all over the bilge if you didn't need a SO and the EWS there?" they don't have an answer or do have some lame excuse.

Justin

Quite simple, Sometimes we screw up.  Not because we didn't know what we were doing, or that we purposely wanted to screw it up.  Sometimes things just happen.  I know in the grand scheme of things that that is a result we don't want to happen but it does.  What is the real thorn in a person's craw is the typical Knee-Jerk reaction that goes way over the top to correct something that was simply a mistake, made due to any number of reasons up to and including being too worn out from rotating shift work, maintenance, and all other things associated with being a nuke. 

If SO's and Monitor Watches and anything else the NNPP can come up with to fix a problem worked, they would only need to be implemented once and never heard from again.  No matter what, people are going to screw up sometimes, even if you are the freaking head of NR you will screw up at sometime.  Good news is that anything truly major with a high potential for Death/Injury/Catastrophe has enough redundancy and other controls that we don't have another Chernobyl or TMI. 

[LaFeet]

Heck  I screwed up  several times in my youth and a few in my later years onboard.  Besides the continuous drill and constant training (plus the necessary book studies) that was one of the few ways we learned.  Most humans tend to learn from their mistakes, but they need to be held accountable in order for that change to occur.  I know I was and I NEVER made the same mistake twice..... 

[Preciousblue1965]

I was thinking about this earlier....

The Navy used to use the "Carrot on a Stick" method to get things done.

The Nuclear Navy has since taken away the carrot and found another use for the stick.

[PapaBear765]

I know they old saying "A B#*%ing sailor is a happy sailor" but I just wanted to get some input from both new and old glow-worms on what you would do to "fix" what we perceive to be wrong with the Navy Nuke program, and not just the broad brush stroke of "raise the standards of recruitment" or "do away with NRRO", I mean real specific answers.  I am sure that there is a lot that we would agree on and even some that we wouldn't.  Who knows maybe someone with some power will read this and see what they can do to put it into play. 

One thing that would help would be a Black's Law Dictionary equivalent: a Nuclear Power Dictionary.  When does "should" mean "maybe" and when does it mean "shall"?  (When it's convenient for the COC, of course)  How long is "about 1 hour"?  Does "continuously" really mean continuously?

[JustinHEMI05]

It's called EAOS,....

Touche. 

But thats the thing I don't understand, if the commercial industry is run by mostly ex navy nukes (ops, anyway), then why isn't getting a job at a commercial plant just like working in the navy again? Sure, I see some navy tendencies in a few guys around here, but they are definitely in the minority.

The differences I observed so far include (but are in no way limited to);

Commercial nukes perform their jobs with a much higher level of professionalism.
I haven't got the sense that anyone was being "sleezy" about anything. Although, I must admit that I was a little shocked at the rad con practices when I first saw them. But then I came to realize that the navy radcon program is ridiculously prohibitive. The techs out here are very efficient and know what they are doing really well and we aren't spreading contamination around the world with our methods!
Evolutions or jobs that would require extensive oversight in the navy are handle by lone EO/AO/NLOs most of the time, with maybe a peer check from a counterpart.
People treat each other with respect (going back to my original post).
People are happier. Sure, they have their complaints, always will. But they are no where near the level of the complaints with the NNPP.

I don't know, maybe I am just naive. But something is radically different between the commercial nukes and the NNPP. Is it the money? I certainly will tolerate a higher level of BS for 100K vs 50K. Is it the security in the knowledge that you can move on if you don't like where you are? Is it going home every night? The absence of the military element? Or a combination of a bunch of things? Sometimes I just wonder how things can be so different when so many of the same people that ran the NNPP run commercial nukes. I am sure its just because I am a rookie and with time, will learn all I need to know to fully understand why things are the way they are.

Justin

[JsonD13]

Just FYI, you are right it is not a Navy instruction that says to normalize the work week as much as possible (i.e. giving a day extra off for weekend duty), it is a DOD instruction.  The MILPERSMAN does say to maximize liberty and leave to the greatest extent possible while still meeting operational requirements. 

One of the problems at my command (I'm on a CVN) that I have the most beef with is that our "cleaning stations" are scheduled for one hour every day, at the end of the day.  They secure access from the ship at that time (i. e. no one can go home).  This is of course a poor example of what the NNPP is doing wrong, but a good one of what the Navy is doing wrong.  I am a firm believer in the ideal that since our pay is the same, leadership really has nothing it can do besides give awards and time off.  This type of structure limits and can prevent this.  If it was me, we would clean in the morning, or just have the duty section clean up after everyone leaves for the day.

I do definetly agree with the statement that the NNPP is too critical of their sailors, without matching positive reinforcement.  I would also like to add that NNPP has too many instructions in "hidden" places to dictate what one does.  At my command alone, if you want to lets say, add to a S/G, you have to reference over 4 different binders/manuals.  The lookup of information to make sure you are "procedurally compliant" takes just as long as the add!  On top of that, these extra requirements were borne out of the belief that if a highly trained technician messes up just once, that it is a leadership failure, and more oversight is needed.  This is helping make an evolution which should just take a half an hour or so, take over 5!  It becomes very demoralizing when you spend most of your watch waiting to perform the evolution because you are waiting on someone to watch you, just to find out that at the last second you will not get relieved until the evolution is done.  We are trained for a year and a half for a reason, and that is trust!  When khaki leadership realizes this, things will happen much quicker, and maybe more people will use their heads to solve issues rather than having to take every little thing up the COC (I believe this fosters belief that blueshirts do not know anything as well).

Just two things though when many more are broken.

Jason

[cincinnatinuke]

Touche. 

But thats the thing I don't understand, if the commercial industry is run by mostly ex navy nukes (ops, anyway), then why isn't getting a job at a commercial plant just like working in the navy again? Sure, I see some navy tendencies in a few guys around here, but they are definitely in the minority.

The differences I observed so far include (but are in no way limited to);

Commercial nukes perform their jobs with a much higher level of professionalism.
I haven't got the sense that anyone was being "sleezy" about anything. Although, I must admit that I was a little shocked at the rad con practices when I first saw them. But then I came to realize that the navy radcon program is ridiculously prohibitive. The techs out here are very efficient and know what they are doing really well and we aren't spreading contamination around the world with our methods!
Evolutions or jobs that would require extensive oversight in the navy are handle by lone EO/AO/NLOs most of the time, with maybe a peer check from a counterpart.
People treat each other with respect (going back to my original post).
People are happier. Sure, they have their complaints, always will. But they are no where near the level of the complaints with the NNPP.

I don't know, maybe I am just naive. But something is radically different between the commercial nukes and the NNPP. Is it the money? I certainly will tolerate a higher level of BS for 100K vs 50K. Is it the security in the knowledge that you can move on if you don't like where you are? Is it going home every night? The absence of the military element? Or a combination of a bunch of things? Sometimes I just wonder how things can be so different when so many of the same people that ran the NNPP run commercial nukes. I am sure its just because I am a rookie and with time, will learn all I need to know to fully understand why things are the way they are.

Justin

If I could give you double karma I would.  I have wondered these same things.  How can this job be so similar in scope of what we do (fission, heat, boil, spin turbine, make power) yet I feel good everyday?

I have made mistakes here in the commercial and civilian world.  And I felt like crap (mispo on a valve) and a complete retard.  But never did I feel I was being made an example of.  No talk of reduction in rate, 45/45, etc.  We (myself, my bosses, and an SRO who dealt in Human Performance) sat and tried to hash out the events and understand where I failed myself.  You see, I still get blamed but it is at least attempted to as Lafeet put it "not make the same mistake twice".

And yes I too need positive reinforcement, so I find it hard in that aspect to "lower my expectations".  I think once you taste the clear waters and eat from these greener pastures you will side with me.  I didnt start out with these expectations, I developed them.

[Rad Sponge]

If I could give you double karma I would.  I have wondered these same things.  How can this job be so similar in scope of what we do (fission, heat, boil, spin turbine, make power) yet I feel good everyday?

I have made mistakes here in the commercial and civilian world.  And I felt like crap (mispo on a valve) and a complete retard.  But never did I feel I was being made an example of.  No talk of reduction in rate, 45/45, etc.  We (myself, my bosses, and an SRO who dealt in Human Performance) sat and tried to hash out the events and understand where I failed myself.  You see, I still get blamed but it is at least attempted to as Lafeet put it "not make the same mistake twice".

And yes I too need positive reinforcement, so I find it hard in that aspect to "lower my expectations".  I think once you taste the clear waters and eat from these greener pastures you will side with me.  I didnt start out with these expectations, I developed them.

Was this your first clock reset? Congrats!

After bout a year, you were due.

I guess the Navy had clock resets too, it was called 100 attaboys being reset by 1 oh no!

[JustinHEMI05]

If I could give you double karma I would.  I have wondered these same things.  How can this job be so similar in scope of what we do (fission, heat, boil, spin turbine, make power) yet I feel good everyday?

I have made mistakes here in the commercial and civilian world.  And I felt like crap (mispo on a valve) and a complete retard.  But never did I feel I was being made an example of.  No talk of reduction in rate, 45/45, etc.  We (myself, my bosses, and an SRO who dealt in Human Performance) sat and tried to hash out the events and understand where I failed myself.  You see, I still get blamed but it is at least attempted to as Lafeet put it "not make the same mistake twice".

And yes I too need positive reinforcement, so I find it hard in that aspect to "lower my expectations".  I think once you taste the clear waters and eat from these greener pastures you will side with me.  I didnt start out with these expectations, I developed them.

I know what you are saying. I walk around with a crap eating grin on my face all the time. People always think I am up to something. I just didn't know this level of happiness was possible. 

Justin