Women in the Nuclear field

[YO!]

I cannot imagine women on submarines.  I really have a hard time believing with all the problems on the surface ships, that they are still in play there.  I am not a sexist, but I am a red-blooded American male.  So were the others on my last ship, which had one female officer...

For those that remember Great Lakes and the male to female ratio of the late 70s and early 80's (1:80), any girl (WAV, at the time) had at least 4 or 5 active suitors--even without beer goggles (if you get my drift).

That being said, this particular officer was party to three marriage break ups, and was finally removed when she was found with--the horror of it all--an enlisted man.  At least in that situation she waited to hit port and get a hotel room.

So, if males cannot be professional enough military men to wait for a liberty port--and females are guilty,too.  Then imagine a more finite space, with infinite amount of time on your hands, as found on a submarine.

Personally, I liked getting the sodas off the tenders when they were around.  The mess cranks were particularly friendly...and I found the anchor w/ star a strong "chick magnet" that could have easily gotten me in trouble if I wasn't just "passing through."   I actually used an emote?

<sub>In response:

It is sad that we still live in a world where intelligence is considered gender specific. It is also sad when the perception of my performance potential is determined by my appearance. In ’94, I completed an AS in Nuclear Engineering Technology with a double minor, Reactor Operations and Health Physics. I became a college intern At Savannah River Site. Very few people managed to complete the courses and of the hand full that did only a few were women. I was in the top of the class. I have continued with my education in other forms.

I have worked in facilities under the Department of Energy and under the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. I have worked as an HP, an RP, a Nuclear Criticality Safety Assessor, and worked in engineering running codes for Radiation Shielding Transport and Nuclear Criticality Safety material mass storage. I have always behaved in a very professional manner. However, most people focused on my looks and offered me employment based on what was on the outside rather that taking the time to evaluate me based on my knowledge and capabilities. Those offers I declined.

When I work, I focus on the job. I have been informed by males on the job that on occasions, there were males in the company that felt threatened by me. I was informed that they felt threatened because I actually comprehend how it all works. The few males that felt threatened were able to create career blocks and limiting advancement. To make matters worse women try to block women too. While I have met some really good men and women in the Nuclear Industry and have watched it evolve over from 1980 to the present it still has a lot off changing to do. Not all women play in the work place. There are serious females just as there are serious males. There are intelligent females just as there are intelligent males.

If there are questions about a woman’s ability to defend, maim or kill. Maybe you should read the news paper sometimes. As far as self control, if men and women are having sex in the work place it is a two-sided issue and should be resolved as such. It is past time to fairly integrate the work place across the board.</sub>

[Samabby]

Excuse me while I clean up the serious attitude leak. Yes, it shows through rather clearly. 

[Marlin]

<sub>In response:

It is sad that we still live in a world where intelligence is considered gender specific. It is also sad when the perception of my performance potential is determined by my appearance. In ’94, I completed an AS in Nuclear Engineering Technology with a double minor, Reactor Operations and Health Physics. I became a college intern At Savannah River Site. Very few people managed to complete the courses and of the hand full that did only a few were women. I was in the top of the class. I have continued with my education in other forms.

I have worked in facilities under the Department of Energy and under the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. I have worked as an HP, an RP, a Nuclear Criticality Safety Assessor, and worked in engineering running codes for Radiation Shielding Transport and Nuclear Criticality Safety material mass storage. I have always behaved in a very professional manner. However, most people focused on my looks and offered me employment based on what was on the outside rather that taking the time to evaluate me based on my knowledge and capabilities. Those offers I declined.

When I work, I focus on the job. I have been informed by males on the job that on occasions, there were males in the company that felt threatened by me. I was informed that they felt threatened because I actually comprehend how it all works. The few males that felt threatened were able to create career blocks and limiting advancement. To make matters worse women try to block women too. While I have met some really good men and women in the Nuclear Industry and have watched it evolve over from 1980 to the present it still has a lot off changing to do. Not all women play in the work place. There are serious females just as there are serious males. There are intelligent females just as there are intelligent males.

If there are questions about a woman’s ability to defend, maim or kill. Maybe you should read the news paper sometimes. As far as self control, if men and women are having sex in the work place it is a two-sided issue and should be resolved as such. It is past time to fairly integrate the work place across the board.</sub>

I don't think anyone questioned the intellegence or capability of women to serve on subs not their capability to perform in battle. delatarho's post is a bit negative but your reply is not responsive to the specifics of his post. Please don't take offense as I'm trying to moderate and gently nudge this thread away from what I see as a squabble that does not really have to happen.

[SloGlo]

persunally, i really don't care about a person's gender as much as there work while at werk.  i have worked in all male groups and in mixed groups.  both were fine, both got work dun.  did eye ever work with wimmen who sluffed off on da work by batting their......ayes?  shur.  did i ever work with guys who slept away da shift?  shur.  i've reported to women 'n i've had women report to me.  der's slugs 'n sluggers.  its a mentality thing, not a genderality thing.  dang, eye thaught we got aweigh frum this stuff inna 60s. 

[LaFeet]

You are absolutely right about losing a crew member in a critical rate.  I don't know your background, but we lose guys all the time to different situations.  As submariners, we deal with this all the time.

The hot racking issue...not an issue on tridents and SSGNs.  Think outside of the box.  You are clearly thinking of all the reasons why we shouldn't have women on subs as opposed to coming up with ways to overcome some obstacles both real and perceived.

Been to sea with one female on a Trident.  She was allotted the forward head and one bunkroom as her own. A loss of nine racks, two  showers, four sinks and three toilets.
I am not against women serving on combat craft.... wish they were doing it while I was in.  But the craft needs to be built from the ground up t accommodate the women...not hastily modified to Allow them to exist on board. 

[roadhard]

_{It is also sad when the perception of my performance potential is determined by my appearance.  - - - - However, most people focused on my looks and offered me employment based on what was on the outside rather that taking the time to evaluate me based on my knowledge and capabilities. Those offers I declined.}

I hope you see the point here, and see that no malice is involved, but I noticed you put your best face forward here too. And you can not honestly expect anyone to believe that, give the choice of focus between your resume and your face, that that scale tips in favor of the resume.

BTW. I'm single and not doing anything Friday night. It's a full moon!

[Marlin]

I hope you see the point here, and see that no malice is involved, but I noticed you put your best face forward here too. And you can not honestly expect anyone to believe that, give the choice of focus between your resume and your face, that that scale tips in favor of the resume.

BTW. I'm single and not doing anything Friday night. It's a full moon!

Please stay on topic this is not E-Harmony. 

[Mike_Koehler]

Is this a "women in the navy" or a "women in the nuclear field" thread? As a current nuclear worker, I must say that I have no problem with fellow nukeworkers regardless of Race, Gender, Religion or Orientation as long as they pull their weight..... As a former Navy person all I can say is would the following have happened in an all male unit?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7055922.stm

Any time you mix armed troops and personnal relationships bad things can and do happen. This just gives our armed forces the proverbial black eye in the international relations arena. And yes, I saw plenty of problems with all male bases and the local populace in my time in but that was a different story in that we didn't have service members shooting service members on-base.

I'm not against females in the military or even in combat....... just trying to show what things  our leaders need to think about when they start assigning females to non-traditional billets.

Mike

[xobxdoc]

Is this a "women in the navy" or a "women in the nuclear field" thread? As a current nuclear worker, I must say that I have no problem with fellow nukeworkers regardless of Race, Gender, Religion or Orientation as long as they pull their weight..... As a former Navy person all I can say is would the following have happened in an all male unit?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7055922.stm

Any time you mix armed troops and personnal relationships bad things can and do happen. This just gives our armed forces the proverbial black eye in the international relations arena. And yes, I saw plenty of problems with all male bases and the local populace in my time in but that was a different story in that we didn't have service members shooting service members on-base.

I'm not against females in the military or even in combat....... just trying to show what things  our leaders need to think about when they start assigning females to non-traditional billets.

Mike

What's your solution Mike? It's easy to point out problems. So come up with an answer to the problem. And yes, I think an act of violence like this can happen in an all-male situation. Maybe not the exact same scenario but violence happens all the time. This particular base has 3000 people assigned to it. It's like a small city like a carrier is. Odds are something bad will eventually happen. This instance you point out seems like a rare occurance. I don't think the problem is with the females. It's with the psychos that can't handle a little rejection.

[Marlin]

Is this a "women in the navy" or a "women in the nuclear field" thread?

Started by an new nuke in the Navy pipeline looking for input preferably by other women who are in the Navy nuke pipeline as to what to expect. I hope she has been PMed some valuable advice.

[Cycoticpenguin]

Id just like to give you some recent trends I've noticed in my overly long tour through the Nuke pipeline.

In A school, lots of relation ships form. I highly suggest you stay away from it. Its a very "high school" mentality in A school, unfortunately, so you need to do your part in keeping the work place proffesional. A typical thing that happens : Guy A meets Girl A. They date for 3-5 weeks, and break up. Next thing, Guy/Girl A is telling guys/gals B-Z "What a 'insert noun here' he/she is!" leading to unproffesionallism at the work place.

Powerschool is a little better, based purely on the fact that there is so little time, and some amount of comraderie has been built up.

Prototype... Ahh... prototype.... Im not going to touch this one on personal reasons.


The navy boils down to what you make of it, nothing more, nothing less. Good luck!!

-Jordan

[Already Gone]

I hope you see the point here, and see that no malice is involved, but I noticed you put your best face forward here too. And you can not honestly expect anyone to believe that, give the choice of focus between your resume and your face, that that scale tips in favor of the resume.

BTW. I'm single and not doing anything Friday night. It's a full moon!

You could not possibly say anything to reinforce the point better.  We, men, are horribly challenged when it comes to working around women.  During the few conversations that I have had with YO!, it was always I who seemed to be the dumb one.  It doesn't bother me that she, and many other women, have me beat hands-down in the confidence and ability area.

The problem, as I see it, is not what women can or cannot do.  Nor is it what women in the work place will or will not do.  The problem is that the minute we se a pretty face at work, we stop being professional working men and start being just men.

There is not a damned thing wrong or contradictory about YO! posting an avatar that depicts her as an attractive woman.  This is not a front, it is just a reality that is very hard for us to deal with.  If she were plain or unattractive - in other words: not threatening - she would be so much easier to work with.  But, does that mean that she is supposed to turn into something that she is not just to get along?  That's crap.

I admit that I turn to a puddle of melted Jello around attractive women.  Admitting the problem is the first step toward recovery.  The next step is to try to overcome the problem.  I suggest this: when talking to a woman at work, about work, listen to what she is saying and forget about what she is wearing.  That is not to say that you can't have a social life which includes your coworkers.  Most couples meet at school or work.  I'm just saying that there needs to be a distinction between the social and the professional - and that distinction needs to start with us guys concentrating on the work when at work.  It is difficult to do.  Nobody knows better than I do how difficult - but at least I try to ACT like I can handle it.

Maybe it would be a little easier to focus on the resume if you take your eyes off her face (or whatever part you are looking at) long enough to actually read the resume.

[McBride]

I admit that I turn to a puddle of melted Jello around attractive women.  Admitting the problem is the first step toward recovery. 

Who wants to recover?  

[Camella Black]

You could not possibly say anything to reinforce the point better.  We, men, are horribly challenged when it comes to working around women.  During the few conversations that I have had with YO!, it was always I who seemed to be the dumb one.  It doesn't bother me that she, and many other women, have me beat hands-down in the confidence and ability area.

The problem, as I see it, is not what women can or cannot do.  Nor is it what women in the work place will or will not do.  The problem is that the minute we se a pretty face at work, we stop being professional working men and start being just men.

There is not a damned thing wrong or contradictory about YO! posting an avatar that depicts her as an attractive woman.  This is not a front, it is just a reality that is very hard for us to deal with.  If she were plain or unattractive - in other words: not threatening - she would be so much easier to work with.  But, does that mean that she is supposed to turn into something that she is not just to get along?  That's crap.

I admit that I turn to a puddle of melted Jello around attractive women.  Admitting the problem is the first step toward recovery.  The next step is to try to overcome the problem.  I suggest this: when talking to a woman at work, about work, listen to what she is saying and forget about what she is wearing.  That is not to say that you can't have a social life which includes your coworkers.  Most couples meet at school or work.  I'm just saying that there needs to be a distinction between the social and the professional - and that distinction needs to start with us guys concentrating on the work when at work.  It is difficult to do.  Nobody knows better than I do how difficult - but at least I try to ACT like I can handle it.

Maybe it would be a little easier to focus on the resume if you take your eyes off her face (or whatever part you are looking at) long enough to actually read the resume.

Spoken like a true gentleman, and a very well educated one at that (and I don't mean school). I don't know if your parents, female siblings or better half had anything to do with you attitude towards women, but I applaud them loudly and proudly. Sure most people are into the visual thing and they often loose out by being so. I was a victim of this attitude years ago and it is painful and demoralizing. Even recently I had to make the painful decision to post my photo here on nukeworker because I was afraid of the snide remarks or thoughts over my weight.

The same results are seen with women who have (according to society) passed their prime by either becoming overweight (such as me), gray or just not young and perky like a 20 year old. Sadly even women discriminate against women for many of the same reasons, looks, weight, age, etc. even down to them being mothers of young children.

Kudos to you for speaking up!

 

[KJC88]

I figure I'd just put my two cents in, figuring even if it doesn't get read it'll be bumped up somehow.

Since I am a female, I agree with having women work in any field they are capable of working up to and carrying their weight, such as the Nuclear Field.

However, as far as with the subs. Well, perhaps an all female personnel sub would work...but I personally as a female would not volunteer. I can't imagine being put together with a bunch of females in a high stress place...too much for me. I'd rather keep it with a large ratio male:female and be happy becoming "one of the guys" sort of tomboy girl. Don't mind that at all, and no it's not because I'll be male hunting, not interested I have my man here at home.

[Fermi2]

I have mentored one woman in this field. She was an Engineer at Fermi, we became close friends and when she went to TMI I helped her get through their SRO Program. She worked hard, had my respect and so far as I know TMI loves having her there. I'd work with her again in a heartbeat. I love her to death as a friend and have a world of respect for her as a peer. When we worked together at Fermi I always tried to treat her with respect and demanded others treat her in the same manner. Together we wrote and performed two IPTEs for major systems without any problems at all, much of it due to her attention to detail. To this day Debbie and I email almost everyday

Currently I'm mentoring a woman who is an Ex Navy E-6 Mechanic. She's currently in our SRO Instant program. She's a hell of a hard worker, learns fast and goes out of her way to accept advice and coaching. I'd run through a brick wall to help her because she deserves it. As with the first woman I love Leslie to death and think the world of her as a professional and if I have any say she'll get her SRO License too. I 100% look forward to working with her as a peer and on the items on which we've already worked together as a team she's impressed me with her know how and willingness to jump in and get the job done. I wouldn't have volunteered to be her mentor if I had thought TVA wouldn't be better for having her in an SRO position.

I'd much rather work with a woman who is trying hard, then a male who thinks he knows all the answers but can't seem to ever leave his desk.

Mike

[Preciousblue1965]

I'm a transplant (Damn Yankee), and have not been assimilated to the Vols (Borg) yet. The enthusiasm for UT is very catching though. Pretty country and very nice people.

Funny I am just outside of Knoxville.  I see that you guys meet at the BPS restuarant.  Too bad they don't have a Carrier group anywhere.

[PapaBear765]

I have mentored one woman in this field. She was an Engineer at Fermi, we became close friends and when she went to TMI I helped her get through their SRO Program. She worked hard, had my respect and so far as I know TMI loves having her there. I'd work with her again in a heartbeat. I love her to death as a friend and have a world of respect for her as a peer. When we worked together at Fermi I always tried to treat her with respect and demanded others treat her in the same manner. Together we wrote and performed two IPTEs for major systems without any problems at all, much of it due to her attention to detail. To this day Debbie and I email almost everyday

Currently I'm mentoring a woman who is an Ex Navy E-6 Mechanic. She's currently in our SRO Instant program. She's a hell of a hard worker, learns fast and goes out of her way to accept advice and coaching. I'd run through a brick wall to help her because she deserves it. As with the first woman I love Leslie to death and think the world of her as a professional and if I have any say she'll get her SRO License too. I 100% look forward to working with her as a peer and on the items on which we've already worked together as a team she's impressed me with her know how and willingness to jump in and get the job done. I wouldn't have volunteered to be her mentor if I had thought TVA wouldn't be better for having her in an SRO position.

I'd much rather work with a woman who is trying hard, then a male who thinks he knows all the answers but can't seem to ever leave his desk.

Mike

Women vs. men is like discussing whether prior enlisted make better officers.  It's a crap shoot.  I've seen about an equal number of female nuke students graduate who I would like to work with and who I wouldn't.  So that means that sex is not a factor in whether or not someone will make a good worker.

Women on subs would work.  It would be rough in the beginning; probably a lot of formal complaints and such.  But eventually it would become as routine as it is to work with people of all the different races that are in the navy.

[KJC88]

Yeah you make a good point with the race factor. So far it has worked. Well only way of knowing is when it actually goes into action.

[LuckyKid]

I'm a female Mechanic at prototype; I'll be moving to report for sea duty in about a month.

I wish I could serve on a submarine, but in order to explain why I would have to compare the submariners I've met to the surface guys, and usually that starts an argument. (At least it does at prototype.)

Most female mechanics put in for ELT-I will not be an ELT. Uhmmm we have to stick together through some things, like pregnancy is a rough subject. I had a pregnancy scare not too long ago (I'm married-so not too big of a scare) but it winds up being a touchy subject, because we can't do our jobs when pregnant. They were going to yank my TLD (you'll learn what that is if you don't know), so I couldn't be on the boat and wouldn't be able to qualify until the child was born. On week 20 of a 24 week stint, that sucks, because I'd be starting back over. A Ma'am pulled me aside to "give me counseling on being a woman in the Navy", and she gave me some legitimate BS about how it's practically dereliction of duty to start a family right now, and was I not aware that I signed a contract? (She's wrong by the way-you're well within your rights to have a family.) I asked a surface guy what he thought and he told me plainly that women should not be in the nuclear field, with that being a primary reason. He continued by saying, though, that women belonged in the home and that I couldn't be a good mother and a good sailor...so I'm pretty sure he's wrong too.

What I'm trying to say is that there are some double standard expectations, and some women will be your friend and give you sound advice on what to do, some will try to be the poster woman by trying to trump the double standards. No kidding, the ma'am who tries to do only what she thinks others what women to do in the Navy is rumored to have slept around on her carrier and is getting surgery to better fill out her uniform.

You have to be strong and confident in yourself. If you're not sure of what to do, ASK.

But I don't have very much great advice yet; I've not been in this field but almost two years. I will help in any way I can.