This can't be good.....

[Preciousblue1965]

Rut Row Raggy,  This is surely gonna make some heads roll.

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2009/02/navy_reactors_021609w/

[dagiffy]

I wonder why they needed to cheat. If I remember right, we did classes 7 days a week at sea. When we tested the only passing grade was 100%. If you didn't get that, you studied and took it again till you passed. Unless this was like for ORSE or something?

[Preciousblue1965]

I wonder what exam this was for.  Was it a CTE, MTT Exam, ORSE exam or what.  I am sure that there are some greenpeacers out there just salivating over this little nugget. 

Also makes you wonder what threw up the red flag? 

[Preciousblue1965]

*Deleted comments*  RT divisions are now shaking in their boots.

Oh how the web that is woven is quickly unraveled when one pulls on the right string. 

I feel sorry for all the nukes that are still in after this, and really sorry for "that guy" becuase he will be hated by every one even though he did the "right thing"






Modified to delete comments in error.

[withroaj]

Thanks for the inside skinny WroAJ.

And the more I hear, the more it sounds like I put out bad info.  Disregard all.  I'm deleting what I put up.  My apologies to all who read it.

[Preciousblue1965]

Well I believe this is partially spawned from the mentality that surrounds the CTEs in general.  As I am sure that other members will attest to, the current mentality about CTEs is that they need to be rediculously hard and that XXX number of people should fail them.  

When I was at Protohell, we would be given CTE questions that were something along the lines of "Explain in detail the procedure for ______________(insert really obscure evolution that occurs once in a blue moon and that you had training on over a month and a half ago).  The only way to get full credit was to memorize the procedure step for step, memorize the stuff in the margins of why you did each step, and all the possible indications the evolution with affect.  We even had a Radcon problem that took over 2.5 hours to go through the PowerPoint Lecture, yet were expected to answer it and several other questions in less than 1 hour.  Furthermore, you would be deducted points if you didn't state every single assumption such as "assume that 3 feet is approx. 1 meter" or "ELT will take approx. 2.5 hours to clean up spill of which 3/4 of liquid is assumed to land on deck, 3/16 of liquid assumed to land in bilge, and 1/16 of liquid assumed was drank by ELT".  

When the CTEs get to a rediculous level and depth, for the sole purpose of driving down the grades, then there is going to be the tempatation for cheating the system.  Add to that the consequences of failing a CTE(such as having to come in at 0700 the next week when you are on supposed to be on swing shift) even furthers the likelihood that some people are going to do everything in their power to ensure they pass.  I am sure that there will be a huge knee jerk reaction, especially because the public image is tarnished, that will bring to light the disparity between what is asked on various exams and what is considered an "average" LOK.  Maybe then it the NNPP will do away with the concept that you have to have "token" failures and the grades have to be in a certain range.  If you have a really good training department, I fully expect that ships grades to be higher than a ship that has a lousy training department.  Of course the only true measurement would be standardized tests across the fleet for all nukes of each vessel class for CTEs, Watch Quals, Etc.

[Wirebiter]

Didn't something very similar to this happen on a SSN not to long ago.  It was the Hampton or Hartford I think.  But yeah blue, you are right about the CTE exams.  You could pick out who was going to pass/fail before you even knew what was on the exam.

Reason number 389 to leave the Navy Nuclear Power community.

[NukeLDO]

Was not a CTE exam.

[AFT21]

I'm 99% sure it won't, but maybe this will lead to the discussion that fixes the problem.  Continuous Training Exam Exams (CTE Exams) were such a joke.  The problem is that noone can ever talk about how the program really runs.  Even if you're off the boat, or out of the navy, you still know you're boning someone.  Which is why I can't be specific in this post.  But if you know, you know.  The thing I've never understood is how Eng's, XO's and CO's can buy into what they put in the NAVSEA08 letter.  Don't ask questions you don't want answered I guess.

MM1/SS

[Preciousblue1965]

Was not a CTE exam.

Ok fair enough, however it doesn't take away from the fact the CTEs are AFU to begin with. 

Watchstation exams for the most part were pretty straight forward except for those at NPTU. 

MTT and ORSE exams, from what I remember usually ended up having a high failure rate anyways.

I'm 99% sure it won't, but maybe this will lead to the discussion that fixes the problem.  Continuous Training Exam Exams (CTE Exams) were such a joke.  The problem is that noone can ever talk about how the program really runs.  Even if you're off the boat, or out of the navy, you still know you're boning someone.  Which is why I can't be specific in this post.  But if you know, you know.  The thing I've never understood is how Eng's, XO's and CO's can buy into what they put in the NAVSEA08 letter.  Don't ask questions you don't want answered I guess.

MM1/SS

Unfortunately you are very correct in this.  There are things that go on in places that if ever were to see the light of day, things would get very ugly very quickly. 

[Wirebiter]

Everyone pretty much just ignores the 3 ton elephant that sits in the logroom.

[Cycoticpenguin]

The whole situation was dumb and shouldnt have happened anyway. Good chiefs went down, and members that should have been held responsible were not.

To the absolute letter of the law, everyone was guilty because no one acted. Im disgusted that they singled out the group they did, but I guess that's how the navy game is played, right?

[Preciousblue1965]

Apparently word from the rumor mill is that there are some forced retirements, some mastings, and some force conversions that happend because of this.

But this is just the rumor I heard.  That and also heard from my buddy who works with a CT on the mess decks that has a friend that decoded the message that we were pulling in early.  Already got the tugs ordered and shorepower ready to go.

[Preciousblue1965]

UPDATE:

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2009/02/navy_reactors_022309w/

Looks like this was during ORSE.  It was apparently the PPWO/PPWS exam.
17 CPOs and 1 JO gone. 

[NukeNub]

I guess this helps advancement opportunities for surface nuke PO1s.

[kiarakitty]

So from what I heard through the grapevine, someone got ahold of the ORSE Q & As for PPWS/PPWO exam, then emailed it to his buddies, over the ship's LAN.  They got caught by emailing the confidential information out.  That was one very dumb move.

[Preciousblue1965]

So from what I heard through the grapevine, someone got ahold of the ORSE Q & As for PPWS/PPWO exam, then emailed it to his buddies, over the ship's LAN.  They got caught by emailing the confidential information out.  That was one very dumb move.

In actuality it is very dumb considering that ITs have to check most emails to ensure that classified information is not compromised via email(such as ships movement, etc.).  I don't know if they check intraship email but it still is easily traceable.  However, I am not sure how much reactor department related email get floated around that actually contains anything that could be construed as classified. 

Still VERY DUMB.  And these were the guys that made CPO.

[Neutron Whisperer]

Good chiefs went down...

I don't feel sorry those who put themselves at risk.

Shocker: "senior enlisted" are part of the problem.    It's a culture that needs to change, hence the Admiral's new, hard push for integrity training.


**Edited to remove erroneous information**

[deltarho]

I seem to remember that the SNPMTT asked questions which they were hoping to find that we WERE talking to each other.  I believe some "heads up," at least on the ship, was expected.  I remember being asked by a Master Chief a few EWS questions of which I obviously didn't get the right one right.  He was incredulous and disappointed that I wasn't prealerted.

[Preciousblue1965]

Well perhaps the NNPP is approaching a fork in the road.  One path leads to doing things the way they have been done for the past 15 years or so.  Thus having more incidents like the Hampton, the Ike, and NPTU NY.  The other is a return to the core principles of the program.  While it may not be pleasant at first, the odds of another incident like the above are surely to go down. 

After hearing about NPTU SC getting double the workload due to NY shutting down, I am so very glad I am no longer a member of that command.  It was bad enough trying to get students through with just 1/4 of the class.  I fully expect that the standards will be further lowered and I am sure that they will manage to discourage those staff members that refuse to "pass" substandard students with even longer hours than they will already be facing. 

[Neutron Whisperer]

**Edited to remove erroneous information**

There was nothing erroneous about it.

[VatoLoco]

Didn't something very similar to this happen on a SSN not to long ago.  It was the Hampton or Hartford I think.  But yeah blue, you are right about the CTE exams.  You could pick out who was going to pass/fail before you even knew what was on the exam.

The same thing happened a few years ago on a SSBN. The blueshirts went to mast, some got de-nuked. The ETC got de-nuked. The EDMC that sent out the email to begin with, got promoted.

[service]

are the cte exams graded in a way where only a certin percent are supposed to pass, example 20 percent get a's and 20 percent get b' and so on.  or is it possible for everyone to do well. another words are they trying to single people out, because only a certain number of people will have to work those bad front line boats. or do they want everyone to do well.

[JustinHEMI05]

No, when there is money literally riding on the exam, they don't purposely "fail" anyone. They do write and audit the exams for a certain score range, and everyone should pass. The exams out here are very challenging but very fair. People that work hard, pass. Its as simple as that. At least that is my experience thus far.

[JustinHEMI05]

Oops I think you were talking about in the Navy. I am referring to the commercial world.

[sovbob]

I wrote a posting illustrating what's wrong with the CTEs in the navy.
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,18370.msg104781.html#msg104781
EDIT: This posting represents my own personal experiences and may or may not be relevant to you or anyone else.

I wholeheartedly believe that the root cause of these problems is that a top-notch training program onboard a ship takes more time and resources than the command has (or is willing to spend).  There's simply more important things.  It's not perfect.  But hey, it's an imperfect world.

[Gamecock]

are the cte exams graded in a way where only a certin percent are supposed to pass, example 20 percent get a's and 20 percent get b' and so on.  or is it possible for everyone to do well. another words are they trying to single people out, because only a certain number of people will have to work those bad front line boats. or do they want everyone to do well.

You have a very long time before you need to worry about Continuing Training Exams.

[DDMurray]

I wrote a posting illustrating what's wrong with the CTEs in the navy.
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,18370.msg104781.html#msg104781

I wholeheartedly believe that the root cause of these problems is that a top-notch training program onboard a ship takes more time and resources than the command has (or is willing to spend).  There's simply more important things.  It's not perfect.  But hey, it's an imperfect world.

You wrote what was wrong with CTE on your boat.  You are correct that the time and resources available for a top-notch training program simply are not there for many commands.  Recent changes to the source documents have been made to try and give boats more leeway on how they administer their training programs.

[sovbob]

Good point, DM.  I've added a disclaimer to my post.