Please help

[catch20]

Hi,

I have been browsing these forums and found them very helpful, but recently thanks to internet I realized that I am in a very bad position. I am 20 years old, from New Jersey, in DEP for Nuke and scheduled to leave aug 3rd this year. I finished 3 semesters of college, and decided that I got as much of college I wanted and didn't want to bury myself even more with student loans so I started to think of a different gameplan for future.  That's when I started thinking military and ended up joining the Navy, since I love traveling, sea, and ships.  I got 91 on the ASVAB and picked AECF as my rate but soon I was offered the Nuke field so I took that.  After months of researching about this field, I realized that this is what I want, because I love learning, and see the school as a great challenge that I am determined to take.  Plus I have learned that the Nuke community is something I want to be part of.

The problem I have right now started at MEPS. I have a criminal record consisting of juvenile charges of assault (reduced to resisting arrest), underage drinking and terroristic threats and another under age drinking charge. As an adult I also have a DUI.  I have told all of this to my recruiter, and he insisted that I do not admit to any of this at Meps, and I did that.  As my rate changed, soon after the assault charge was found out and I met with an investigator. He asked me about this charge and I told him the truth about it and disclosed the other charges. He also asked me why I lied and i told them the truth (that my recruiter told me to).  My recruiter said everything will be ok and since I didn't hear anything about this again that I shouldn't worry, because "if I was to be disqualified, that they would have let me know already"

I took his word but when I started researching about this matter recently, I realized that everything he said is wrong, and since the clearance doesn't get finished until after I am in the A school then I might be kicked out and I won't know till then.

I have spoken to him and the Navy counselor and they just keep saying to keep my mouth shut, because if I start yapping then they would definitely kick me out. He even showed me some paper about kids getting kicked out from boot camp for admiting at the moment of truth about speeding tickets and other minor things.  What I was thinking of doing is changing my rate when I see a classifier at boot camp to reduce my chances of being discharged. I would rather be a non nuke in the navy, then not in the navy at all. But if I stay in the Nuclear Program what are the chances  of me actually not getting discharged? If they do deny me clearance do I just go back to the classifier and pick another rate? Will I have limited options, and not being able to pick a good rate? Have you seen many nukes getting discharged rather then forced to pick another rate? If I do decide and get the opportunity to pick another rate in boot camp, if I don't like my options, will they let me keep the Nuke rate?

I appreciate your advice on this matter.

P.S. I know I should have been more honest in the beginning, but I really didn't think the recruiters would screw me over like this. I have also withdrew from college, and unemployed, so the last thing I want to happen is being discharged.

[LT Dan]

Dude, you are screwed.

[JustinHEMI05]

Dude, you are screwed.

I don't think so. Lets wait until the experts chime in.

Right away I am thinking you absolutely must tell everything. What the consequences will be, I will let others address. Your mind is in the right place, now do the right thing.

Justin

[catch20]

I don't think so. Lets wait until the experts chime in.

Right away I am thinking you absolutely must tell everything. What the consequences will be, I will let others address. Your mind is in the right place, now do the right thing.

Justin

When I met with the investigator I did tell them about my charges, even the ones they didn't find out about. Did honesty really help me in this situation. Also, since I told him everything, I don't need to disclose anything at the "moment of truth", right?

[LT Dan]

If what you say is true, you need to report your recruiter to the appropriate people so that he doesn't screw over more potential recruits.  I suspect that there is more to your story then what you are saying.


http://www.ig.navy.mil/complaints/Complaints%20(N-R).htm#Recruiter_Misconduct

"Contact the Naval Recruiting Command IG at  Hotline #:1-888-247-9321 to report recruiter misconduct or the Chief of Naval Personnel IG at  Hotline #: 1-877-414-5357"

[NukeLDO]

Lets see:
  First criminal charge involves alcohol.
  Second crimnal charge involves alcohol.
  Third criminal charge involves alcohol.

The Albert Einstein definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

And yes, at the moment of truth, you need to make sure they are aware of all of this, regardless of what you have told the investigator.

[Khak-Hater]

If what you say is true, you need to report your recruiter to the appropriate people so that he doesn't screw over more potential recruits.  I suspect that there is more to your story then what you are saying.


http://www.ig.navy.mil/complaints/Complaints%20(N-R).htm#Recruiter_Misconduct

"Contact the Naval Recruiting Command IG at  Hotline #:1-888-247-9321 to report recruiter misconduct or the Chief of Naval Personnel IG at  Hotline #: 1-877-414-5357"

I always thought that it was a recruiter's job to screw over recruits.  It's a job that takes the morals of someone somewhere between a used car salesman and a pimp [no offense intended toward any used car salesmen or pimps out there].  Even the slimiest dudes that I knew on the "E" wouldn't take shore duty as a recruiter.  Most recruiters lie.  This one told the recruit to lie.  I'm pretty sure that this happened on a pretty regular basis when I was in.  I knew lots of dudes who got into the Navy on a "I tried pot once" waiver.  Once, really?  Here's how the conversation usually went.

Recruiter:  "Have you ever smoked pot [shaking head "no" while asking question]?"

Recruit:  "Can I get into the nuke program if I did?"

Recruiter:  "If you say that you only tried it once I can get you in on a waiver."

Recruit:  "Then, yes.  I tried it once, but didn't like it."

Recruiter:  "Remember that answer and don't ever change it."

Seriously though, at the moment, this kid's a customer, not an employee.  He is certainly under no obligation to shake up a hornet's nest about bad recruiters when he isn't even being paid by the Navy at this point.  Once again, it's a management problem.  Somewhere out there, there's a khak who's responsible for this recruiter, who's either (a) not doing his job; or [more likely] (b) turning a blind eye to this kind of behavior because it's inherent in the system. 

mgm

[xforcehunter]

You shouldn't even be in the Military unless you're willing to change yourself....let alone become a nuke.  Like LDO said, you have issues with alcohol.  The Navy is not the place for you to work those issues out.  Here, you will have serious punitive measures (not just losing your DL and a fine) if you have alcohol related incidents.   Settle with your demons elsewhere.  When YOU'RE ready to change, then join the Navy.  You and the Navy are not going to benefit from each other until you're ready to serve other than yourself. 

By the way....don't ever trust someone who tells you to lie!  They will never have your best interests in mind!

[G-reg]

Also, since I told him everything, I don't need to disclose anything at the "moment of truth", right?

You are correct, but not for the reason you stated.

You need to correct any paperwork which you filled out in a manner that doesn't reflect reality.  Either officially re-submit all of the "No I didn't" paperwork, or sit down with the proper authority figure and correct any official paperwork which has been submitted.

Either way, telling an investigator means jack if the official paperwork still contains a lie.

So to get back to where this post began:  No you won't need to disclose anything (i.e. reveal any new information), because YOU SHOULD ALREADY HAVE EVERYTHING FULLY DISCLOSED IN WRITING BY THAT POINT.

And

I have spoken to him and the Navy counselor and they just keep saying to keep my mouth shut, because

because they personally stand to get hammered in this matter.

Get everything out in the open, IN WRITING!

[catch20]

Lets see:
  First criminal charge involves alcohol.
  Second crimnal charge involves alcohol.
  Third criminal charge involves alcohol.

The Albert Einstein definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

And yes, at the moment of truth, you need to make sure they are aware of all of this, regardless of what you have told the investigator.

This happened at a totally different phase of my life, when I wasn't myself.   I haven't had any run ins with the law for the past 3 years, not counting parking tickets.  I drink very rarely.  I am me now. I am not crazy or an alcoholic. Thank you very much

[catch20]

You are correct, but not for the reason you stated.

You need to correct any paperwork which you filled out in a manner that doesn't reflect reality.  Either officially re-submit all of the "No I didn't" paperwork, or sit down with the proper authority figure and correct any official paperwork which has been submitted.

Either way, telling an investigator means jack if the official paperwork still contains a lie.

So to get back to where this post began:  No you won't need to disclose anything (i.e. reveal any new information), because YOU SHOULD ALREADY HAVE EVERYTHING FULLY DISCLOSED IN WRITING BY THAT POINT.

Andbecause they personally stand to get hammered in this matter.

Get everything out in the open, IN WRITING!

Ok, this is what I wanna do. However, I don't want to put myself in the situation where they will just get rid of me. I don't know if this is part of recruiters scare tactics, but he told me if I say anything, it will be the end.  He even showed me some paper where it listed recruits who got discharged from boot camp. For some it was because they admited to things like speeding tickets and other minor things at the moment of truth. On the other hand I have heard of people with worse problems like fraud and not getting kicked out.

So which action will give me a higher chance of staying in the navy?

[Smart People]

Every incident you describe is a matter of public record in some official database. If you do nothing and they find out,and they will find out, you are definitely out of the Navy for lying on your application.

You've said it already, the recruiters are using scare tactics.

The main issue if you are looking to be a Nuke is Integrety. If you go the dishonest route or take your recruiter's advice, then where is your integrety?

I'm not sure if you've been told, but the recruiter gets at least 3 times more points for recuiting Nukes as he/she does for regular recruits. the recruiter is in this for himself and his quota. Once you're sworn in (the second time), he gets his points and moves on. if you get kicked out later, it doesn't come back on him.

[catch20]

Every incident you describe is a matter of public record in some official database. If you do nothing and they find out,and they will find out, you are definitely out of the Navy for lying on your application.

You've said it already, the recruiters are using scare tactics.

The main issue if you are looking to be a Nuke is Integrety. If you go the dishonest route or take your recruiter's advice, then where is your integrety?

I'm not sure if you've been told, but the recruiter gets at least 3 times more points for recuiting Nukes as he/she does for regular recruits. the recruiter is in this for himself and his quota. Once you're sworn in (the second time), he gets his points and moves on. if you get kicked out later, it doesn't come back on him.

So if understand correctly, once I'm in the boot camp, his job is done, he gets his points, and whatever happens after to me doesn't matter. So then why would he tell me to lie after he gets his points? I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to understand

[Smart People]

i would say he's afraid he will lose you before you officially enter the Navy. Yes, usually the best policy in the military is to keep your mouth shut as much as possible. If you can talk to the investigator again, make sure he has a record of everything you discussed. then you can honestly say you have already given full disclosure. when you reach Power school, you will need a security clearance so this will come out.

[xforcehunter]

I'll say it again.  Don't ever trust someone who tells you to lie.  They don't care about you.

[catch20]

Lying on security paperwork and lying to security personnel and investigators,...

You're still having run-ins with the law,....

You're just not getting caught (yet),...

You know you are wrong because you're on this forum asking for ways to mitigate the consequences and still get what you want out of the deal,...

Blaming your malfeasance on the recruiter is like telling your girlfriend you slept around on her because you had too many beers,...

The time to demonstrate you've changed your ways and can be trusted with a nuclear power plant is when the first guy encourages you to be dishonest, and try to get one by to get what you want,....

You failed that test,...

If anybody ever trusts you with a nuclear power plant in the future and, in your trying to get one by, people are killed or hurt, who do we in the civilian public hold accountable?!?!?!

You?!?!?!? A person who demonstrated he would lie to get what he wants before he even joined the program?!?!?!

Or do we hold the people who gave you the keys to that shiny reactor accountable?!?!?!?

I vote for fifty-fifty culpability,....

Now, if you do manage to get in the program and five years down the road you are the center of another Hartford debacle you have your defense,....

You can always claim they knew ahead of time that you couldn't be trusted to keep the faith, and they are therefore accountable for putting you in a position where you would undoubtedly fail yourself, your shipmates and the general public, therefore, any consequences against you should be mitigated based on their bad judgement in putting all the pieces for failure into place to begin with,....,....

As I have stated, I am not having any run ins with the law, except for a parking ticket or 2.  I am blaming my recruiter, because I did what he told me to do and now I am in this position.  He said that everyone does it and noone gets caught, and if I did say something I could be disqualified.  If the Navy didn't have such strict standards, kicking people out for speeding tickets, maybe more people would have been honest.

Thanks for the lecture, but I know I am a good person and I always strive hard to be even better.  What makes you think you know what kind of person I am based on few mistakes I have made when I was a kid. All I am asking for is how should I deal with this situation with the intention of staying in the Navy. 

[Fermi2]

You're a liar whether you tell someone elses lie or whether you tell your own lie. Either way I'd prefer you not be in my industry.

Mike

[HydroDave63]

Did honesty really help me in this situation. Also, since I told him everything, I don't need to disclose anything at the "moment of truth", right?

That is the crux of the problem. You would STILL lie RIGHT NOW if some guy in uniform in the process with a mellow, well-modulated voice and a nice hairdo, with a faint scent of Axe,  would tell you  that "you can still get in the Nuclear program if you just say/write down the following lie(s)..."

As Smart People pointed out, all of those events are public record, including all of these thread posts being archived forever. No matter how you slice it, at this point a clearance is not in your destiny, so Nuclear isn't gonna happen.

If you are going to go with the "I did what the recruiter told me to do", then it is one of two choices:

1. I did it because the recruiter has some position of authority because he is an active duty Petty Officer carrying out the Navy's recruiting mission.

or

2. I did it because it seemed the easiest, expedient thing to do because it gets ME what *I* want, and if trouble comes of it, then "If the Navy didn't have such strict standards, kicking people out for speeding tickets, maybe more people would have been honest. " .

IF you choose Door #1: the answer is that in this thread several people, including active duty commissioned Officers, have told you to report the recruiter's conduct, and to fully disclose everything. In addition, since you are over 18, you might want to read the fine print at the bottom of the forms. Intentional omission or falsification is perjury. Blaming it on the recruiter won't help you in the Brig as BM3 Bubba is sliding his skivvies off...

Door #2: If the standards are too high when it is easy like getting signed up, then following the standards when performing the plant operation and maintenance would really be a downer.

100 quatloos...

[catch20]

That is the crux of the problem. You would STILL lie RIGHT NOW if some guy in uniform in the process with a mellow, well-modulated voice and a nice hairdo, with a faint scent of Axe,  would tell you  that "you can still get in the Nuclear program if you just say/write down the following lie(s)..."

As Smart People pointed out, all of those events are public record, including all of these thread posts being archived forever. No matter how you slice it, at this point a clearance is not in your destiny, so Nuclear isn't gonna happen.

If you are going to go with the "I did what the recruiter told me to do", then it is one of two choices:

1. I did it because the recruiter has some position of authority because he is an active duty Petty Officer carrying out the Navy's recruiting mission.

or

2. I did it because it seemed the easiest, expedient thing to do because it gets ME what *I* want, and if trouble comes of it, then "If the Navy didn't have such strict standards, kicking people out for speeding tickets, maybe more people would have been honest. " .

IF you choose Door #1: the answer is that in this thread several people, including active duty commissioned Officers, have told you to report the recruiter's conduct, and to fully disclose everything. In addition, since you are over 18, you might want to read the fine print at the bottom of the forms. Intentional omission or falsification is perjury. Blaming it on the recruiter won't help you in the Brig as BM3 Bubba is sliding his skivvies off...

Door #2: If the standards are too high when it is easy like getting signed up, then following the standards when performing the plant operation and maintenance would really be a downer.

100 quatloos...

I did go with the Door #1. When the investigator came to meet with me. I disclosed everything about what they found out PLUS other charges he hasn't mentioned.  When asked why I didn't disclose this information earlier, I told them that this is what my recruiter has told me to do.  I am not a liar by nature, in fact I hate lying. I am meeting with my navy counselor again tomorrow, maybe he can do some kind of waiver for those charges.  I know I made a mistake, I wouldn't ask help, otherwise.  Thanks to those who provided helpful advice

[JustinHEMI05]

Goodluck and keep us posted. I am happy you are taking the harsh advice and criticism well. That says something to me. I am also happy that you want to fix your life and IMO, you can fix it. Just to the right thing, every time, as a start. Yes, you messed up as a kid (who hasn't) but you messed up even bigger lying now. If the consequences are that you don't get the nuke program, so be it (I am not convinced that you can't still be a nuke). You must now live with those consequences while at the same time finding the stregth to continue on and not give up.

Justin

[catch20]

Goodluck and keep us posted. I am happy you are taking the harsh advice and criticism well. That says something to me. I am also happy that you want to fix your life and IMO, you can fix it. Just to the right thing, every time, as a start. Yes, you messed up as a kid (who hasn't) but you messed up even bigger lying now. If the consequences are that you don't get the nuke program, so be it (I am not convinced that you can't still be a nuke). You must now live with those consequences while at the same time finding the stregth to continue on and not give up.

Justin

Thanks I really hope it helps. I have been pretty down lately, really worried about this situation.  As much as I want to be in the nuke field, I will accept if the clearance will get denied, although I will be crushed.  I just hope I don't end up having to pick a job I will hate (chipping paint, and the like), or worse being discharged.  If that happens that I'm probably going to be homeless, and still having to pay off student loans and various.  That's why I just can't end up being discharged.  I'm just really worried about this whole situation, and since my recruiter and nc1 could care less, I just don't know where else to turn.  I almost joined the army, but I thought the Navy would be a better fit for me. I really hope I won't regret this decision.

Thanks again to all of you who took time to give a helpful advice. 

[mlslstephens]

I am not having any run ins with the law, except for a parking ticket or 2.  

Catch20,
As with what Justin said, I too appreciate how you are dealing with the "straight talk" you are getting from some of the best in the industry.  Listen to them because they shoot straight; and typically, they are correct.

However, I want to address something about the parking tickets.  Why do you get them?  You don't just get parking tickets without parking illegally.  When you park in a spot not designated for you or you try to get by with only one quarter when you know it will take two, you are intentionally doing something wrong but hoping to not get caught...or maybe you don't mind being caught.  Regardless, integrity is doing the right thing all the time, no matter who will see you or if you would ever get caught. 
I'm not trying to be all "high and mighty", but several weeks ago while visiting Auburn University on graduation weekend, it was extremely tough to find a parking spot.  I finally found one but I knew that I really wasn't supposed to park there; even though there was no sign on this one spot.  All others had the signs, but this one had fallen off.  By the letter of the law, I could have gotten away with it, but I "knew" that spot wasn't meant for me.  If parking illegally isn't bad, then at what point do you say "I shouldn't do that".  No one would probably ever find out if you didn't go to ERLL and take one set of logs with a shutdown ER at 0300...so what do you do?  Maybe your LPO says, don't worry about "getting help" on the divisional test...everyone does it.  Does that make it right?  I could go on and on.

Not trying to be too rough on you, but I don't think you really understand integrity. 

However, I refer you back to my first comment and that is you take these tough comments well.  That will serve you well regardless of what field you go into.

Good luck as you continue to grow as a person and learn about integrity.

[catch20]

Catch20,
As with what Justin said, I too appreciate how you are dealing with the "straight talk" you are getting from some of the best in the industry.  Listen to them because they shoot straight; and typically, they are correct.

However, I want to address something about the parking tickets.  Why do you get them?  You don't just get parking tickets without parking illegally.  When you park in a spot not designated for you or you try to get by with only one quarter when you know it will take two, you are intentionally doing something wrong but hoping to not get caught...or maybe you don't mind being caught.  Regardless, integrity is doing the right thing all the time, no matter who will see you or if you would ever get caught. 
I'm not trying to be all "high and mighty", but several weeks ago while visiting Auburn University on graduation weekend, it was extremely tough to find a parking spot.  I finally found one but I knew that I really wasn't supposed to park there; even though there was no sign on this one spot.  All others had the signs, but this one had fallen off.  By the letter of the law, I could have gotten away with it, but I "knew" that spot wasn't meant for me.  If parking illegally isn't bad, then at what point do you say "I shouldn't do that".  No one would probably ever find out if you didn't go to ERLL and take one set of logs with a shutdown ER at 0300...so what do you do?  Maybe your LPO says, don't worry about "getting help" on the divisional test...everyone does it.  Does that make it right?  I could go on and on.

Not trying to be too rough on you, but I don't think you really understand integrity. 

However, I refer you back to my first comment and that is you take these tough comments well.  That will serve you well regardless of what field you go into.

Good luck as you continue to grow as a person and learn about integrity.

Ok I'll explain the parking tickets. Both happened around 2-3 months ago. One of them I got because I was just moving in to a new apartment, moving boxes and all that. There is a law that it was illegal to park on the street 1-3 on thursdays and 1-3 on tuesday (other side). I didn't know this and that's how I got the ticket. This one was my fault, even though I wasn't aware of this law. The second one wasn't. We were at a beach at we stopped at a restaurant. We parked in front of a sign which said "customers parking only." My guess was they put them, because people park in random lots since it's hard to find parking at the beach.  I ended up receiving the parking ticket anyway.  I could have fought it, but for that I had to go to court. Since I lived no where near the beach, it wasn't worth driving there spending more money on gas then I would have on the ticket. So I just ended up paying it and the other one. 

So I would love it if you told me, where in all of this I lacked integrity. Please

[catch20]

Apparently, they were kicked out for lying about the infractions,.....

Navy enlisted people are entrusted with nuclear power plants and nuclear weapons safety,....

Some of them (the SEAL community) are entrusted with the decision to kill or not kill the civilians of foreign nations, even a bos'un (not the most glamorous of rates) can be a SEAL....

You're right, their standards are much too high,.... (dripping sarcasm emoticon)


edited for flyboys sake,...  

You know, not everyone who might have got in trouble when they were a kid or made some mistakes are a piece of s**t.  I really hope most people in the nuke community are not like you.

[catch20]

Catch20 listen to your Uncle's that just posted for your benefit.  Some of them actually thought enough to be nice to you.  I wouldn't have been.  So I'll just be quiet over here enjoying my Popcorn and Beer.

I have read and took account every single reply. Thanks for the concern