NPUA

[Rennhack]

i was asked to delete it (not by anyone here!) until after the election on thursday.

I thank you for clearing that up.

[HenryBlack]

Training?  When was the last time anyone worked a PWR that actually included contract HPs in any kind of mock up training (especially with the actual workers involved.  ECT, Incores, transfer canal work, maybe even SGRs, etc ?
How about BWRs and CRDs, pulling incore intrumentation ?
It was VERY common 20 to 30 years ago, I have seen very little since then.
I am curious as I have only worked at 30 or so sites maybe I am at the wrong plants.
If the utilities are not willing to invest in training at their site because of the cost how will a union make it a reality.
Like everyone else I am looking for the answers to make this a better "Profession" than where we are now.

I believe; and this is only my opinion; they dont let RP Techs go to mock ups as much as they used to do because the plants have started taking less RP's and they don't have the manpower to do that. In reality all we are responsible for is dose rates and smears and any 18.1 or 3.1 tech should already know how to do those things. I agree that it does help to see the entire evolution and when you shoud take a smear or a dose rate, but it isnt absolutely necessary.

It will be interesting to see if the NPUA or any other union will  be willing to spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on mock-ups and training for RP's. They want an apprentice program; which we already have called Jr. RP. The only way that I know to train someone is either through OJT or mock-ups. Maybe the NPUA can get the utilities to get the Jr's out of their chairs and into the plants more often to watch and learn from sr's. I know there some jr's that already get in the plants as much as possible and I applaud you for that. When I was a Jr. it was expected that you spent most of your break time assisting Sr's. By assisting ,back then, I mean doing the work while they watched and let you know what you did wrong or stepped in and took over if you were lost  as to what to do next. Joe Kiman, Wayne Dees and Bill Mahoney taught me this way while at ANO in 1984 during my last Jr. job.  I better stop before I get off Topic.
 The most important thing here to me is this; If you call yourself a Sr. Tech , make sure you know what you are doing because you can be held liable for your actions and be fined and/or imprisoned for them. I say if you don't know or aren't sure about something then ask someone. Thats what I still do after almost 30 years because I don't claim to know it all and never will.

[UncaBuffalo]

...It will be interesting to see if the NPUA or any other union will  be willing to spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on mock-ups and training for RP's. They want an apprentice program; which we already have called Jr. RP. The only way that I know to train someone is either through OJT or mock-ups. Maybe the NPUA can get the utilities to get the Jr's out of their chairs and into the plants more often to watch and learn from sr's...

...but, if they don't provide a higher quality tech (through training and self-policing of standards), how is NPUA helping the utility?  

In the short-term, the shortage of qualified techs will push our wages up (and the NPUA definitely is helping speed this process)...but in the long-term, any union is going to have to supply a better product - or the utilities will go straight back to the low-bidder when the tech pool fills back up.  (Which will happen when the DOE sites lose the stimulus money...esp. at the rate colleges are starting new RP programs...)

[Already Gone]

The best way to stay trained is to work a lot. If you don't use it you lose it. Its true. I have covered steam jenny work,divers,cavity,refuel floor,rerack,TRU and on and on. I have participated in the mock up of jumping jennies( when I jumped) and TRU glove box work. I believe between work training is beyond the scope of a union.
A long time ago when I had long hair and played in rock and roll bands I ran an add in the local paper looking for a lead guitarist. After auditioning billions of musicions we finally settled on someone we felt comfortable with. One guy called and told me he was union and had to have union scale and paid rehearsals. I said good luck but no thank you. So
Where would the union build the training facility and who would do the training? Would we get travel pay to the facility? Would we get paid while we trained? Would there be enough bananas to go around? The union cannot be all things to all techs. There are many challenges facing techs both on the road and off. A union could help, mainly with the money.
I'm sorry,but monkeys? Would that be old world,new world,chimps,orangs,or maybe silver backs for fully mature techs? I want to at least be an orangutan.
Like many on this site I spent many years(~21) learning how to do my job. Allmost all on the job. A little good sense on my part and a whole lot of experience passed on to me from other more experience techs. How can a union address this?
Besides, I could get the termites out of the ant hill much quicker than a monkey and I could save you a lot of dose doing cavity work.

There has to be more to the training than what you pick up on the job.  A true apprenticeship program will have to include classroom and laboratory style training.

Who would pay?  You.  The members of a union are normally assessed an hourly amount to fund training.  

A training facility for RP's would most probably be somewhere that is conducive to summer attendance.  Since summer is the low season for RP work, it makes sense to do the bulk of training then.  Places like Las Vegas (where the lodging and airfare are heavily discounted in the summer) are good choices.  The Nevada Test Site is frequently used for training all kinds of people in radiation detection and measurement.  (Trinity Glass from the craters makes for excellent "fake" contamination).  Anyway, that's my suggestion.  NTS.
The classroom portion could be at least partially done online by CBT and Webinar type packages.

Students are not normally paid while in training, but the union could arrange for the employers to pick up the cost of transportation and lodging for their employees.  The instructors would, of course, be paid.

Off the job training is very valuable.

[LaFeet]

There has to be more to the training than what you pick up on the job.  A true apprenticeship program will have to include classroom and laboratory style training.

Students are not normally paid while in training, but the union could arrange for the employers to pick up the cost of transportation and lodging for their employees.  The instructors would, of course, be paid.

Off the job training is very valuable.

 Well put Troy - sign me up...heck Id even be glad to be an instructor again for something like this.

[HenryBlack]

...but, if they don't provide a higher quality tech (through training and self-policing of standards), how is NPUA helping the utility?  

In the short-term, the shortage of qualified techs will push our wages up (and the NPUA definitely is helping speed this process)...but in the long-term, any union is going to have to supply a better product - or the utilities will go straight back to the low-bidder as soon as the tech pool gets filled back up.  (Which is going to happen eventually when the DOE sites lose the stimulus money...esp. at the rate colleges are starting new RP programs...)

They will have to pay based on evaluations. They can't base it strictly on their training programs because some people may not be able afford to take the summer off and go to Las Vegas or some other training site. Or the Utility may not be able to let some long term people take off for months. Even though it is summer they still have some work that has to be done.  I know that in the past evaluations have been biased toward some people based on what the Site coordinator thought of them. For this reason there would have to be a better unbiased evaluation done by someone "in the know". This is one way to make sure the Utilities get what they are paying for.

[Rennhack]

Who would pay?  You.  The members of a union are normally assessed an hourly amount to fund training.  

= Fail

[Rennhack]

I know that in the past evaluations have been biased toward some people based on what the Site coordinator thought of them. For this reason there would have to be a better unbiased evaluation done by someone "in the know". This is one way to make sure the Utilities get what they are paying for.

You don't think Site Coordinators are 'in the know'?  You think someone else is more unbiased?

I disagree.  The site coordinator gets more information about his people on site than anyone else would get, which equals them being the most 'in the know'.  They get to know all the 'behind the scenes' stuff that isn't made public.  The site coordinator may appear biased because you are not privy to all of the information they use in their judgments.

Sometimes it's easier to say that someone has it in for me, rather than to self reflect, and improve.

[mostlyharmless]

Theory recquires no centralized training facility,though it could be incorporated into one. A mock up can be an extremely valuable tool,and can be as simple as a hidden source to be found by frisking student. Many important skills and techniques can be learned in a simple mock-up. But,to be more effective complex or hazardous jobs recquire more  specific mock-ups. You want your actual working conditions to be as close to real as possible. Some sites have platform replicas for genny work,I have never seen a cavity mock-up,or seal table,rhr flats,etc.The TRU mock-up was very helpfull to me. We had a functioning glovebox and had the room laid out and posted similarly to what we were to face on the job. It helped in developing the work and covering the work.
Another viable option is internship. This can work if students are reacquired or of their own volition actively participate in the work. An intern is kind of like being a junior tech. But you have got to do more than set an access point.
It is beyond the scope of a union to even attempt to provide relevant training beyond just basic rad-con practices.Its also unrealistic to expect techs to travel and train on their own dime. After spending time in the Navy,or college,or the years it takes to become a senior why should anyone spend the money or time? Should it be reacquired?  The complex work environment cannot easily be reproduced so that it is an effective training tool.
The union cannot be expected to provide a better quality tech. You cannot winnow out the slackers completely. In my opinion a unions most usefull role is to protect the compensation package for the worker , help ensure fair hiring practices and fair treatment on the job.
It is up to the individual worker to develop a work ethic,personal integrity,and a desire to learn and to progress. You cannot teach these things, and expectations will not make it so.
A union will benefit all, not just the "good" techs. Like safety, peer pressure is probably has a great impact on shaping the culture in witch we work and live.

[HenryBlack]

You don't think Site Coordinators are 'in the know'?  You think someone else is more unbiased?

I disagree.  The site coordinator gets more information about his people on site than anyone else would get, which equals them being the most 'in the know'.  They get to know all the 'behind the scenes' stuff that isn't made public.  The site coordinator may appear biased because you are not privy to all of the information they use in their judgments.

Sometimes it's easier to say that someone has it in for me, rather than to self reflect, and improve.

Yes Site Coordinators are in the know and and yes I guess everyone is biased to an extent. Its just that I have seen coordinators fill out evaluation forms based on how good their friendship is with some techs.  I have worked outages where the SC never went to nights to see how his folks are on nights are doing. I was just saying that maybe there should be more than one person doing evaluations.

[Already Gone]

= Fail

How so?

[Rennhack]

How so?

Who would pay?  You.  The members of a union are normally assessed an hourly amount to fund training. 

From reading the posts, it seems that the tech's are not interested in training, or paying for others to get trained, or to even give a few weeks of their summer down time to get trained.

They don't want to be assessed an hourly amount to fund training, they just want more money.

I could be wrong, I'm just going by what I read from the people that are posting.  The only people that seem interested in getting training going are the people that are no longer techs.

[Rennhack]

Just so you know that I'm not being grumpy or anti-anything, below is a list of threads on the subject that I used to form my opinions.

Please review these older articles:

Sooo, Why Haven't the Roadrats organized? Spring 2003.
Rock the Boat Fall 2003 (One of my favorites)
The Last Outage! Summer of 2004.
Spring Season, The Squeeze is on! Fall 2004, the good stuff starts on the second page.

Besides money what drives an hp? Spring 2004 (Sorry, its in the gold members area.)
Some stuff you probably won't read. December 2001.

Add them to the fact that I tried to organize an annual summer gathering of nuclear workers where they could get free training and certifications, and only one person signed up (Nuclear NASCAR).

They said they were only interested in coming if they were paid to come get the training.

[HydroDave63]

Even when I give house techs training, they dont like it if there is a test involved. So I can understand contractor, house, or new apprentice feelings of testing, but it is a necessary evil. The more training, the more knowledge that separates individuals abilities, the difference in pay levels.

Let me guess, you make a living selling training programs (No I dont get a pay check from selling training programs).

I'm seeing a bit of a disconnect here 

[UncaBuffalo]

...Some stuff you probably won't read. December 2001...

[mostlyharmless]

A union could encourage techs by stratifying pay per qualls. But after a point the tech performing more hazardous work should get compensated more. Or how bout the tech that operates more efficiently and saves the company money or dose? This gets complicated and is difficult to keep fair.
There allready exists a bunch of training resources: navy,college,plants have training Dept's,etc. There allready exists the minimum standards set forth by 10cfr.
What can a union do besides help keep track of qualls.or provide a very basic level of training that would be mostly useless for a lot of us. Classroom training for those who need help preparing for the tests would work.
At some point,early on, personal integrity and work ethic must come into play.
Now, as I have said before, I did not pull the rods in the sun. I am a pretty good tech but have met better. No one had to tell me to study for the tests once I realized I would have to take them. No one had to tell me to become NRRPT certed. I did these things on my own. I asked for and received help from time to time and would have had a lot more if this site existed  back then. But I did what I understood I needed to do.
Some of us like the work we do for the works sake. Some of us like the learning for the knowledges sake. That being said,I will not work for free. But I will and do study and learn for free. I paid for NRRPT, not the company I work for. The people I work for do not care. The only compensation I received was personal, I proved to myself that I could still get my weak and lazy mind to plod into a haltering trot. And I am proud that I did.
All this being said, a union could help through a pay structure that encouraged more qualls,but not tests alone. A test by itself is not an effective indicator of ability. It only shows an ability to take a test. Some of the best techs I have known were terrible test takers. And some of the worst were very good at a test.
A union will best serve the greater number of techs by getting us more money through collective bargaining. It will only work if the union is pretty much the only place you can get a tech from. And the union cannot be selective, it will have to work for all of us, not just the "good" techs. More techs will become good techs if ,like safety,(had to get that in there) the culture is such that peer pressure forces people to be better. No union can or should do that.

[UncaBuffalo]

...More techs will become good techs if...the culture is such that peer pressure forces people to be better. No union can or should do that.

  Why should the union not be about us being better people? 


I know I can always improve.  And enjoy working around other techs that like to do the job right.  So, I think being in a union that did apply peer pressure to excel would be a wonderful thing. 

Set the perfomance bar high...the money will follow. 

[mostlyharmless]

I think I can agree with you uncle. Peer pressure works the same in or out of a union. The idea of a union being discriminatory is what bothers me. I dint want a union to rate techs or send techs to jobs based on a system that may are may not be objective. The lack of objectivity and the favoritism is allready apparent in our industry a union has the potential to make it worse. So  set the bar high as long as we set it. The union should reflect the members. I hope I have made sense, I still have sucker marks from the hog head I just took off and am a little sleep deprived from the rotating shift.

[RDTroja]

...in our industry a union has the potential to make it worse.

...in our industry a union has the potential to make it worse better.

You are both equally right. I think that is one reason why the distrust factor is so high right now.

[stownsend]

Maybe a union is the way to go after reading SEC recuitment for a hotcell specialist with 10 years experience offering $36 PER YEAR.I'm sure it's a typo but fun to poke around.

[LaFeet]

 I feel training is essential.  We should all strive to better ourselves as professionals.  I do see problems in assigning a location or time frame. 

 As for pay grades, I still believe that the better qualified and performing techs should be rewarded with a higher pay rate.  As for how we grade them, a standard needs to be developed and followed. 

 I would be willing to perform as a trainer if a system was set up to benefit my fellow Radiation Protection and Decon coworkers.

 Ok  nuff said  good luck all (still out where the sun don't shine - Humboldt) - Paule

[mostlyharmless]

I just returned from the npua web site were I saw the info about the southern company vote and the grant application. I also saw a little about doe techs,road techs,all of us. I did not find a place on the site to get more information about npua. My comments are about how I feel about unions in general. i would like to know more about npua specifically. I have done a small amount of research on the history of unions in this country from 18th century to present. I don't like to vote from a position of ignorance and would like to know more about the npua. I saw a lot of industry news and some forum comments but no real information about npua. Am I just not looking in the correct part of the site? How can I become informed ? Preferably in writting in an official publication from npua.

[Rennhack]

all this talk of training and quals is well and good in its own right.however in a forum labeled "re npua"what amazes me is that in the weeks up to today when an actual vote is taking place at farley vogtle and hatch about whether or not the npua gets to negotiate for the 12 core techs there....no one in this forum thinks that a worthy topic of discussion.......simply amazing!. oh by the way a petition was filed against bartlett in florida for crystal river....hearing set for 8/6/10. sorry for the interuption....go back to generating another couple of pages on training and tech quals etc etc

training etc is important...... at the appropriate time. i guarantee you that the people that are voting today are not voting on training. they are voting on compensation, payrates /perdiem, holidays, overtime etc etc. after that comes benefits, health insurance and retirement...somewhere after that is training..continuing or otherwise. we as a union need to focus right now on what is THE MOST IMPORTANT to our members. in the npua we have had discuussions on training continuing as well as advancement/progression training, live classroom vs online. all of that is theoretical until the union is in a better position financially to address those issues. honestly though there are far more important issues facing the npua right now than training. fyi we have applied for a federal grant to set up an online continuing/ progression training course available at the npua.org website.

I appreciate you keeping us informed.  I also appreciate your participation here.

[HenryBlack]

What happened with the vote at the Southern Company plants. The NPUA news said they would know something by 5PM Yesterday. Please inform us.

[Eric_Bartlett]

What happened with the vote at the Southern Company plants. The NPUA news said they would know something by 5PM Yesterday. Please inform us.

From what I've been told the majority voted no to the union, I'm surprised that the result hasn't already been posted...