More Cheating on Exams

[Neutron Whisperer]

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2009/11/navy_truman_112309w/

Thirteen sailors were punished in connection with a cheating incident on a nuclear propulsion test aboard the aircraft carrier Harry S. Truman in early May, according to a spokesman. This is the second cheating scandal involving a carrier in a year and the third to involve the nuclear-powered force since September 2007.

None of the sailors was ranked above E-6, and none was identified by the office of Naval Nuclear Propulsion.

All were punished with disciplinary or administrative action. Eight of the 13 sailors lost their nuclear Navy enlisted classifications and were kicked off the ship, said Lukas McMichael, a spokesman for Adm. Kirkland Donald, director of Naval Nuclear Propulsion. He said five sailors were permitted to stay aboard and keep their nuclear qualifications following captain’s mast.

McMichael did not detail the sailors’ involvement, but the event unfolded when a proctor caught two sailors with notes during a “continuous training examination,” also called a “level of knowledge” test.

After the incident, the roughly 300 remaining nuclear-qualified members of the ship’s reactor department retook the test.

[Bighouz107501]

this is already a topic under lost cause and has been known about for several months under that post

[HydroDave63]

do people really get kicked out easily? 

Sure hope so!

[rumrunner]

Ah, but for the good old days when no nucs got caught cheating.  They just got caught on drug tests, de-nuked, busted, and sent to the fabled fleet oiler in the Indian Ocean.  You know, the one painted white because of the extreme heat at the equator. 

[Neutron Whisperer]

the Navy has invested thousands upon thousands of dollars getting a nuke operator to the fleet who then makes him(her)self unavailable to return the investment by failing integrity,......

they don't make your life easy after you waste their two+ year investment,.....

they may not be able to use you, but they still own you,....

for years and years they own you,....

garbage must be collected, shipboard tanks reeking of human excrement must be cleaned, pipes reeking of rotted food must be purged, paint must be chipped off under blistering suns and in freezing winter,...

sound easy?!?!?!?!?

plus all the wonderful benefits of an other than honourable discharge for your efforts,....

(sic)

Not saying that doesn't happen, but just what you wouldn't want to happen also happens.  That is, some instructors from a couple years ago at ptype got denuked for integrity and were re-assigned to aid the base chaplain; spent their days playing golf.  The others got equally cushy jobs on site.  And since the process is so laborious, they received pro pay the whole time.

[baronbrady]

the Navy has invested thousands upon thousands of dollars getting a nuke operator to the fleet who then makes him(her)self unavailable to return the investment by failing integrity,......

they don't make your life easy after you waste their two+ year investment,.....

they may not be able to use you, but they still own you,....

I was in shock when I arrived at my carrier.  The CTE's were a joke.  If you failed, you were punished, and the exams weren't hard enough unless a set percentage of people failed.  Essentially, if you were new, you failed.  If you weren't buddy-buddy with the RT personnel, you might fail.  The program flew in the face of Integrity, with people walking into the exam room with pre-written answer sheets.  I approached our division's LCPO (An E-9) and asked him why this was okay.  His answer: "What am I supposed to do about it?"

[Golly Orby]

I was in shock when I arrived at my carrier.  The CTE's were a joke.  If you failed, you were punished, and the exams weren't hard enough unless a set percentage of people failed.  Essentially, if you were new, you failed.  If you weren't buddy-buddy with the RT personnel, you might fail.  The program flew in the face of Integrity, with people walking into the exam room with pre-written answer sheets.  I approached our division's LCPO (An E-9) and asked him why this was okay.  His answer: "What am I supposed to do about it?"

Is this a common issue, and is this limited to surface ships?

[baronbrady]

This is based on my experience, which came to an end in 2008.  At the time, cheating was the (well-known) norm.  I can only hope that the massive mast cases in recent years are enough to inspire change.

[Pirate Bob]

Is this a common issue, and is this limited to surface ships?

I would say that it's common, but I don't know how it is on other ships.  It happens on my (surface) ship...ALL the TIME.  My knee-jerk response was to continue on spouting about how the whole thing is horrible and needs to be revamped, but I have no clue how they would fix it so feel as if b*tching would be unproductive.

[Marlin]

Very sad   that anyone should accept such a thing. I know my experience is a bit dated but we had at least some pride in our knowledge of the reactor and secondary systems. Perhaps the talk I hear of NNPS being a pump instead of a filter are more true than I had hoped to believe.

[LT Dan]

I would say that it's common, but I don't know how it is on other ships.  It happens on my (surface) ship...ALL the TIME.  My knee-jerk response was to continue on spouting about how the whole thing is horrible and needs to be revamped, but I have no clue how they would fix it so feel as if b*tching would be unproductive.

Here is how you fix it....

CTEs will only be given at a pre-set time.  The only exception is for the duty section on watch at the pre-set time. 

All divisional CTEs administered by Division Officer or higher.  Any evidence of cheating is dealt with at Captains Mast.

All PPWO/PPWS CTEs administered by Assistant Reactor Officer or higher.  Any evidence of cheating is dealt with at Captains Mast, officers included.


RTA puts the fear of God into his staff....threatens to take to mast anyone leaking information about any upcoming exam.

[Preciousblue1965]

Here is how you fix it....

CTEs will only be given at a pre-set time.  The only exception is for the duty section on watch at the pre-set time. 

All divisional CTEs administered by Division Officer or higher.  Any evidence of cheating is dealt with at Captains Mast.

All PPWO/PPWS CTEs administered by Assistant Reactor Officer or higher.  Any evidence of cheating is dealt with at Captains Mast, officers included.


RTA puts the fear of God into his staff....threatens to take to mast anyone leaking information about any upcoming exam.

I would agree with the above recommendations, and add one little caveat to it.....

Results of the test should be CONSTANTLY used to tweak the exam difficulty of the exams.  If, in a 100% honest effort, > 40% fail the exam, the test should be looked at and possibly rewritten.  If no one fails, then it should be looked at and possibly rewritten.  Test results should not take away liberty or affect working hours negatively.  Positive test results should be rewarded, such as >3.7 on 4.0 scale gets to leave early the next day or something to that effect.  Finally, test questions should be meaningful to the people taking the exam.  MMs should not be doing full blown ECPs and ETs should no be explaining the how to do an overhaul of a half-inch steam valve.  Test questions should not be marathons of information for one question that take up the entire sheet front and back just for the fun of it. 

Until we address both issues of the cheating problem, it will never get fixed.  Operators will always need to know more, but they also have to the confindence that through standard training, operational experience, and system knowledge that they can pass an exam and do fairly well on it without having to memorize obscure procedures and information.

[LT Dan]

I would agree with the above recommendations, and add one little caveat to it.....

Results of the test should be CONSTANTLY used to tweak the exam difficulty of the exams.  If, in a 100% honest effort, > 40% fail the exam, the test should be looked at and possibly rewritten.  If no one fails, then it should be looked at and possibly rewritten.  Test results should not take away liberty or affect working hours negatively.  Positive test results should be rewarded, such as >3.7 on 4.0 scale gets to leave early the next day or something to that effect.  Finally, test questions should be meaningful to the people taking the exam.  MMs should not be doing full blown ECPs and ETs should no be explaining the how to do an overhaul of a half-inch steam valve.  Test questions should not be marathons of information for one question that take up the entire sheet front and back just for the fun of it.  

Until we address both issues of the cheating problem, it will never get fixed.  Operators will always need to know more, but they also have to the confindence that through standard training, operational experience, and system knowledge that they can pass an exam and do fairly well on it without having to memorize obscure procedures and information.

I agree with you.  

I also think that 2.80 as the fleet standard needs to be revisited.  We have a slew of guys who barely make it through the training pipeline these days, making grades slightly in excess of 2.50 all the way through.  Then, magically, we expect them to get a 2.80 when they make it to the fleet.  Why do we think that guys who never got above a 2.8 while in training when their only job was to study and learn are somehow going to score 2.8 while trying to do their real job?  Some guys are not ever going to be able to get there (without "help").  I think the standard should be 2.5 until someone is Senior-in-rate qualified.  

[Fermi2]

Typical T Ball response. Lower the standards.

Just so you know, the Big Leagues standard is 80% what you call a 3.2

Mike

[Preciousblue1965]

I agree with you.  

I also think that 2.80 as the fleet standard needs to be revisited.  We have a slew of guys who barely make it through the training pipeline these days, making grades slightly in excess of 2.50 all the way through.  Then, magically, we expect them to get a 2.80 when they make it to the fleet.  Why do we think that guys who never got above a 2.8 while in training when their only job was to study and learn are somehow going to score 2.8 while trying to do their real job?  Some guys are not ever going to be able to get there (without "help").  I think the standard should be 2.5 until someone is Senior-in-rate qualified.  

I never understood the 2.8 thing either.  I know Prototype was one of the worst places with regards to CTEs.  There was no set definition of what was "2.5 Knowledge" or "2.8 Knowledge"  In my mind, a student who just qualified was required to have 2.5 knowledge.  If a student took one of the Staff CTEs, then they would be hard pressed to make it out of the "square root club".  While I fully agree that a staff member should be able to score higher than a newly qualified student, there shouldn't be THAT big of a difference.  Another big problem I had with the CTEs at prototype were some of the point break downs.  They would count off points for not writing down the assumption that 3 feet is approx to 1 meter. You spent as much time writing down assumptions as you did attempting to calculate the answer(worst part was it took 3 hours to give the lecture, yet you only had 2 hours for the ENTIRE CTE exam).  

[Preciousblue1965]

Typical T Ball response. Lower the standards.

Just so you know, the Big Leagues standard is 80% what you call a 3.2

Mike

Not advocating "lowering the standards" for the sake of making people pass.  Just making sure the standards are at the correct level based on a reasonable expectation.  When you are asking for verbatim wording from a obscure procedure that is 12 pages long and no one has ever used before just to get 2.5, there is something amiss. The questions should be meaningful to the people that take the exam.  I would never expect an ET to be able to walk through an entire steam valve overhaul, including all necessary QA paperwork and inspection criteria, yet I have seen that on CTEs many times.  However, I would expect a PPWS to be able to reasonably work through a ECP because he needs to know how they are done to provide solid back up to the PPWO and RO.

[Fermi2]

Lowest grade I ever got on an exam in the T Ball League was 3.9.
Quit coddling and enforce the standards. The current attitude is why T Ballers are so woefully unqualified in the Big Leagues. If you're asking questions based on your objectives then they are fair game. Sorry, the amount I have to know to perform my basic duties is probably about 950% above what you're asking on a T Ball exam and I and my big League buddies get along just fine. Just so you know, at my utility if a guy gets less than 85% I have some 'splainin to do.

The current T Ball philosophy is to coddle and unfortunately it's going to get worse as the last of those who had to actually earn an NEC leave the Navy.

Mike

[Gamecock]

Lowest grade I ever got on an exam in the T Ball League was 3.9.

[HydroDave63]

I wonder if it is 2.8 , "2.5 and survive" or "cooperate and graduate" onboard the boat pictured below:

[Preciousblue1965]

Lowest grade I ever got on an exam in the T Ball League was 3.9.
Quit coddling and enforce the standards. The current attitude is why T Ballers are so woefully unqualified in the Big Leagues. If you're asking questions based on your objectives then they are fair game. Sorry, the amount I have to know to perform my basic duties is probably about 950% above what you're asking on a T Ball exam and I and my big League buddies get along just fine. Just so you know, at my utility if a guy gets less than 85% I have some 'splainin to do.

The current T Ball philosophy is to coddle and unfortunately it's going to get worse as the last of those who had to actually earn an NEC leave the Navy.

Mike

I am not advocating "coddling" in the least bit.  As I have stated in many posts, I feel that the Navy is already "coddling" above and beyond Rickover's worst nightmares.  I am just simply advocating being more realistic.  If you truly want an ET to know how to overhaul a valve, then teach him to do it.  Don't give him an hour long lecture about how to do it, wait 2 months, then expect him to know everything about it(even stuff that wasn't in the lecture) and be able to write it all down in perfect verbatim order and wording. That is what is going on now.  \

Yes I will admit that when I was coming through the pipeline(1998-2000) the filter was starting to be removed, but there was still enough of a filter left that I felt I had earned my NEC, especially to what I saw come down the line as an instructor later on.  

Sure the Navy might be a "Tball league" in your eyes, it is still a starting place for many in the industry. Afterall, didn't you come up through the Tball leagues to become the omniscient operator you are today?

[Marlin]

   2.5, 2.8, or 3.2 is just a number. Having been the Training PO for the Engineering department including the EOOWs an EWSs I can tell you that grade points may have more to do with test development than knowledge, as long as the standard of training is kept high. On my first day of ELT school we were given a test to determine our level of knowledge and to determine whether or not we would be on 8 hour days (40 hrs/wk) or 12 hours (60 hrs/wk) for school. Nobody passed at no surprise to the instructors. Our Comprehensive exam at the end of Nuke school was developed on alternate years by Bainbridge and then Mare Island there were no 4.0s or even 3.9s on any of those exams. To be fair we had a graded class system that taught bare minimum to section 1 and a full load to section 12 but the exams were all the same.
   What bothers me is not the grades but the acceptance of cheating, that it is, just part of the game. Is this an indictment of the rank and file or a failure of the system. What ever it is, it needs fixed.

[JustinHEMI05]

Wait a minute, someone pinch me or correct me if I read this all wrong. Someone suggested that to fix the program, they turn it over to the officers? And then threaten everyone? No one could possibly really believe that is the solution, so I am going to go with the thought that that must have been said tongue in cheek.  

I agree with Mike. The solution is for the Navy to emulate the commercial industry, and not say stupid things like "the commercial industry strives to be like the Navy." Like he said, the min standard is 3.2, with questions asked at 3.4, and in order to be certain you are going to make it, an 87 or 3.48. You get made fun of less than a 90, or a 3.60 and people start to consider you a slacker at <95. All the while, standards and expectations get raised to a higher level with each new generation of operators. This is part of the reason I don't mind living within the 10 mile zone of my plant.  

Then again, the standards of Navy operators isn't really the question of this thread. This thread deals with exam security. As far as I remember, there wasn't any real exam security in the Navy. So yet again, I suggest the Navy benchmark the commercial industry in this respect, it could learn a lot.

Then again, it kind of does go back to the unreasonable expectations set forth by the senior officers in the Navy (ie pass/fail rate, etc). So that would need addressed first. I think you should simplify things and make super hard exams, that everyone has to pass, period. Stop expecting failures. When you really think about it, that is stupid. Then, with your new super hard exams, learn to control them, but I really don't have any ideas how to do that right now due to the reason below.

Apparently, the possibility of mast isn't a deterrent to cheating, so maybe something more drastic is in order. I know the consequences of cheating in the commercial world are severe, just short of public execution. Its hard to say what the Navy can do in this regard, without going overboard. Then again, what price do you put on exam security? Should be steep I would think.

Its a tough problem with no clear solution. I certainly don't envy those that have to work within such a damaged system.

[drayer54]

Navy Probing Alleged Cheating on Nuke Reactor Work

The Navy's top admiral says the service is investigating alleged cheating among senior sailors on written tests related to training on naval nuclear power reactors.

Adm. Jonathan Greenert told a Pentagon news conference Tuesday that he was disappointed in the alleged breakdown in discipline. He said the investigation was ongoing.

The head of the Navy's nuclear propulsion programs, Adm. John Richardson, told reporters that the examinations on which sailors allegedly cheated included classified information.

The allegations involve alleged cheating on tests related to the nuclear reactors that provide propulsion for Navy submarines and aircraft carriers. It does not involve naval nuclear weapons and thus is not directly comparable to the Air Force's investigation of alleged cheating by officers who operate land-based nuclear missiles.

At this stage of the investigation, approximately a dozen sailors are believed to be involved in the alleged cheating, although the investigation is still active and has not reached final conclusions.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/navy-probing-alleged-cheating-nuke-reactor-work-22362057

[HydroDave63]

Navy Probing Alleged Cheating on Nuke Reactor Work

The Navy's top admiral says the service is investigating alleged cheating among senior sailors on written tests related to training on naval nuclear power reactors.

Adm. Jonathan Greenert told a Pentagon news conference Tuesday that he was disappointed in the alleged breakdown in discipline. He said the investigation was ongoing.

The head of the Navy's nuclear propulsion programs, Adm. John Richardson, told reporters that the examinations on which sailors allegedly cheated included classified information.

The allegations involve alleged cheating on tests related to the nuclear reactors that provide propulsion for Navy submarines and aircraft carriers. It does not involve naval nuclear weapons and thus is not directly comparable to the Air Force's investigation of alleged cheating by officers who operate land-based nuclear missiles.

At this stage of the investigation, approximately a dozen sailors are believed to be involved in the alleged cheating, although the investigation is still active and has not reached final conclusions.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/navy-probing-alleged-cheating-nuke-reactor-work-22362057

We should start a pool to wager on when our first post arrives "So,  a guy I know.... got a general discharge for something the Navy didn't really prove etc etc, but he got denuked anyways etc etc ,and I'm just wondering how hard it would be for me, uh, I mean him, to get one of those six figure jobs that you guys talk about on here." 

[GLW]

.......I'm just wondering how hard it would be ....

not hard enough,...