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Sun Dog

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Free Speech or Censorship?
« on: Jun 21, 2010, 09:12 »
I have lurked about this site as a guest for some time prior to joining as a member.  During that time I took notice of a recurring theme, the possibility that censorship of posts exists on this site.

Some members make direct or insinuated accusations of censorship.  These are quickly followed by claims of denial by other members and moderators.  Which is it?  Is this a censored site or are members free to express themselves provided they do so within the framework of the site rules that we all agreed to comply with?

I started a similar post a day or so ago but deleted it.  I apologize to those members who responded to the original version just to have their input unceremoniously flushed.  Please repost your thoughts.

Tango Yankee –

SD



Offline stormgoalie

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Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #1 on: Jun 21, 2010, 10:01 »
My personal experience is that this site is not censored, but it is moderated within the boundaries of the forum rules.  The only time I have seen posts deleted is where the post was so far out of line as to be either slanderous, libelous, or downright threatening.  If you would like to see what is allowed outside of the public forum become a Gold Member.  We have our own section of the forum where the rules are a bit more relaxed, but it still has rules and is occasionally moderated for the above reasons. The idea behind ANY forum is an exchange of information, ideas, or experiences, but still within the boundaries as stated by the forum staff.
WARNING: Translation of author's random thoughts may have resulted in the unintended introduction of grammatical errors, typos, technical inaccuracies, lies, propaganda, rhetoric, or blasphemy.

Offline Camella Black

Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #2 on: Jun 21, 2010, 01:04 »
Censorship happens daily in all walks of life; most of the time we just call it editing. Any magazine or print material you read has been edited, so are the news shows, talk shows or comedy/dramas we watch or listen to. Of course if it’s live then mistakes happen and people get a clear picture of someone’s boob, vulgar language or other material that the powers that be feel is not appropriate for public viewing.

I was called in for a reprimand once by my publisher because when a proofreader/copy editor was editing my work they accidentally changed it’s to tits… yes it was missed by her, me and our editor and ran on the front page of a small town paper; funny but they (the publishers) went gaga because so many people were offended.

I have also been edited here on nukeworker (thankfully) and have most of the time have had no problem with it. I have pushed it to the limit and even violated forum rules... I have been a member of this site for a number of years and if you follow the rules and don't act like an ass anything is fair game… there are rules and if you don’t follow them well then the moderators are forced to censor edit posts… all websites that are moderated do this (edited by Camella)


Censor

1. Suppression of published or broadcast material: the suppression of all or part of a play, movie, letter, or publication considered offensive or a threat to security

 
2. Suppression of something objectionable: the suppression or attempted suppression of something regarded as objectionable

Edit

1. Prepare text for publication: to prepare a text for publication by correcting errors and ensuring clarity and accuracy

 
2. Decide content of publication: to be in overall charge of the publication of a newspaper, magazine, or broadcast program

 
3. Cut material: to remove material from something such as a publication, broadcast item, recording, or movie, e.g. because it is lengthy or offensive was edited for bad language has been edited down from 5 hours of live recording



http://encarta.msn.com

Censor

To ban or cut portions of (a publication, film, letter, etc.)

Edit

1.
a. To prepare (written material) for publication or presentation, as by correcting, revising, or adapting.
b. To prepare an edition of for publication: edit a collection of short stories.
c. To modify or adapt so as to make suitable or acceptable: edited her remarks for presentation to a younger audience.
2. To supervise the publication of (a newspaper or magazine, for example).
3. To assemble the components of (a film or soundtrack, for example), as by cutting and splicing.
4. To eliminate; delete: edited the best scene out.
n.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com

Censor

To examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable <censor the news>; also : to suppress or delete as objectionable <censor out indecent passages>



Edit

1 a : to prepare (as literary material) for publication or public presentation b : to assemble (as a moving picture or tape recording) by cutting and rearranging c : to alter, adapt, or refine especially to bring about conformity to a standard or to suit a particular purpose <carefully edited the speech> <edit a data file>
2 : to direct the publication of <edits the daily newspaper>
3 : delete —usually used with out

http://www.merriam-webster.com
« Last Edit: Jun 21, 2010, 04:49 by Camella Black »

Offline Rennhack

Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #3 on: Jun 21, 2010, 01:06 »
Sun Dog,

This is a great post.  I would really like the feedback.  PLEASE post your experiences here.  Especially if you think you have been inproperly censored.

Lets take this time to review the forum rules, here is a link:

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,4700.0.html

Along the same lines, does anyone have a problem with the actual rules we enforce?  Or do they seem to make sence?  I've basically adopted the same forum rules other sites have.

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #4 on: Jun 21, 2010, 01:11 »
As a former Moderator (and one of the earliest) I can tell you up front that I never censored anyone for any ideas, even (especially) those that I disagreed with or even thought irresponsible. I don't know of any other Moderator that did, either. I rarely deleted messages at all and only did if there was a threat to the site due to legal issues or if the post was abusive (and I apply a very broad definition of what people are allowed to say.) I left posts that attacked me personally alone except to reply. I think most of the other Moderators have or would do the same.

Having said that, there are a lot of people that think the internet is an area where rules should not apply to them and that they can post whatever inflammatory, insulting and just plain libelous thought crosses their otherwise unoccupied minds. Most of that will be edited or deleted and the poster will invariably cry foul and wail that their personal rights have been crushed for absolutely no reason and that they are, once again, the target of a personal and deliberate attack by everyone with any power and victims of a major conspiracy.

Read the rules and abide by them and I can assure you (even though I am no longer a Staff Member) you will not be censored.
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

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Offline Camella Black

Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #5 on: Jun 21, 2010, 01:18 »
I have lurked about this site as a guest for some time prior to joining as a member.  During that time I took notice of a recurring theme, the possibility that censorship of posts exists on this site.

Some members make direct or insinuated accusations of censorship.  These are quickly followed by claims of denial by other members and moderators.  Which is it?  Is this a censored site or are members free to express themselves provided they do so within the framework of the site rules that we all agreed to comply with?

I started a similar post a day or so ago but deleted it.  I apologize to those members who responded to the original version just to have their input unceremoniously flushed.  Please repost your thoughts.

Tango Yankee –

SD

btw I believe a the lead moderator can retrieve the deleted topic for you if that is what you want.
« Last Edit: Jun 21, 2010, 02:13 by Rennhack »

Offline Rennhack

Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #6 on: Jun 21, 2010, 02:15 »
btw I believe a the lead moderator can retrieve the deleted topic for you if that is what you want.

If we merged them, they would be Chronologically older than the first post in this thread, placing it out of order and confusing people.
« Last Edit: Jun 21, 2010, 02:42 by Rennhack »

Offline HydroDave63

Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #7 on: Jun 21, 2010, 02:38 »
as you can see,....even the thought of such an abomination initiates said confusion,.... :P :P :P

Or sets off wild swings in the ElectroEncepheloGraph  ;)

Offline Rennhack

Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #8 on: Jun 21, 2010, 02:41 »
as you can see,....even the thought of such an abomination initiates said confusion,.... :P :P :P
You are killing me.  You know I can't spell.

Offline Rennhack

Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #9 on: Jun 21, 2010, 03:09 »
as you can see,....even the thought of such an abomination initiates said confusion,.... :P :P :P
Or sets off wild swings in the ElectroEncepheloGraph  ;)

Normally I'd chastise the both of you for posting off topic.  Typically topic starters don’t appreciate it when people hijack their topics with off-topic banter.  They started the topic for a reason.  And reading 30 pages of how Rennhack can’t find the spell check button he installed on his own site to find out about 6 posts about censorship is typically annoying to the topic starter.  However… due to the nature of this post… I’m not going to tell you to stay on topic.  Veer off as much as you want on any wild tangents you see fit.  I’m sure your witty remarks are more important that the actual topic.  By the way, what was the FIRST rule in the website forum rules I JUST linked above?  Oh yeah, something like “1. Keep all replies to a message on topic; this includes witticisms and smart remarks.”  It’s OK, I’m sure the rules don’t apply to you two; after all, you are Gold Members with over 7702 Karma and 5742 posts between the two of you.  You obviously understand the nuances of what is acceptable and what isn’t.  :P :P :P Back at you.

As I said, I’m going to leave the above posts intact, and I request that the posters don’t delete them either.  This is an example of some posts that add nothing to the thread, violate the ‘off topic’ rule, and would be deleted just for the sake of housekeeping.  Without the housekeeping, we would now have 4 posts that add nothing to the thread (counting this one) out of only 11 total posts.
Some people would see this as censorship.  Dave and Marssim don’t see it as censorship.  They understand that it’s housekeeping.  They also understand that it’s ok for them to post their one or two posts, as long as the whole thread doesn’t get hijacked.  If, however, they reply to this message, and I reply back, and others dog pile on, further compounding the hijacking – your thread would be lost and it would all be about ME ME ME ME…and not about censorship.
« Last Edit: Jun 21, 2010, 03:11 by Rennhack »

mostlyharmless

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Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #10 on: Jun 21, 2010, 04:07 »
For my part, I only want to encourage discussion. I do not post where I have little interest and I dont scoure the site looking for something to delete. I would love to see more people register and post. A lot of people look but not many reply. Every one has an opinion or information, but not so many will share. It gets to be like network news; you get more responce than actual news and it soon devolves into ego mardigras. This is not to devalue anyones opinion,to marginalise anyone. In the topics that interest me there are folks I read because there thoughts are expressed well and make sense,wether I agree or not. And I am not afraid to show my own ignorance. Like most people, I do not know everything,and did not pull the rods on the sun. This sites value is in the information exchanged. We need more info. You folks that post a lot keep posting; you lurkers need to jump in. Pare down the ego and it wont hurt quite so bad when someone steps on it.

Offline Camella Black

Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #11 on: Jun 21, 2010, 04:50 »
Camella –

Thank you for sharing your experience as a writer and the dictionary definitions.

In some applications censoring and editing may be synonymous.  But there is a distinct difference between the two in an open forum environment like NW.  See the « Last Edit: Today at 14:13 by Rennhack »  in your previous post?  What Mike did was editing with no content or intent change.  If Mike had deleted a portion of your post or otherwise altered your intended message without your permission, or if he deleted it entirely that may be indicative of censorship.

I do not understand why you referenced the NPUA.  I did not create this post to promulgate a battle that is being waged elsewhere on this site.

I created this post so members and moderators on both sides of this issue would have a convenient sounding board where they could express their beliefs and personal experiences with the subject matter on this site.  By communicating, maybe both sides will come to understand each other better and stop the infighting and backbiting.

We are all on the nuclear ark together.  Sink or swim.

BTW – I prefer to leave the original post in the trash.  I now understand that it was not well worded.

SD


Sorry, I did not mean to offend you, I should have censored myself and I did not... therefore I was forced to edit my own post.  ;)

Offline Smart People

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Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #12 on: Jun 21, 2010, 05:55 »
Most of the moderators will give you notice if you have broken the rules and give you a chance to change it.

I remember receiving a notice from a moderator telling me that I had broken the rules and giving me a chance to modify it. I added the link I needed and showed how I was within the rules and my post stayed.

It was definitely a political piece and the content generated plenty of debate. There was no mention of the content. only the need to follow the rules in my post.
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Fermi2

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Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #13 on: Jun 21, 2010, 06:33 »
You are a guest in Mike's house, when you sign into the forum you have no right to expect free speech. Given it's Mike's house no, it wouldn't fall under Censorship, it would fall under Mike's House Rules.

Offline retired nuke

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Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #14 on: Jun 21, 2010, 09:51 »
As I posted in Sun Dog's original thread, I have had posts deleted. But, as I said, at the time, I was way out of line in a personal attack. Somebody pushed a personal button during a divorce, and I went off.

I have left NW before over other's posts being edited, and over other poster's being put on probation. But I came back.

I knew Mike Rennhack when he pushed a mop, and I sat on my butt staring at a meter. He was way smarter than me then, and still is. He grew up faster than I did. I didn't start growing up until I had kids.

I have seen moderators overstep their bounds (not you Camella... - HC) and be taken in hand rather quickly. Mike runs a pretty fair, benign dictatorship.

Remember, this is a publicly accessed, but privately owned board. Mike is king, and has the right to uphold his standards.

Peace,

John
« Last Edit: Jun 22, 2010, 08:26 by HouseDad »
Remember who you love. Remember what is sacred. Remember what is true.
Remember that you will die, and that this day is a gift. Remember how you wish to live, may the blessing of the Lord be with you

Offline Rennhack

Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #15 on: Jun 22, 2010, 07:18 »
Mike is king

Why does a line from "History of the World: Part I (1981)" by Mel Brooks come to mind?

Offline xobxdoc

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Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #16 on: Jun 22, 2010, 07:37 »
Do you mean the line that what said about the guy holding the bucket?
Sorry, couldn't resist.  :)

Offline Rennhack

Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #17 on: Jun 22, 2010, 07:49 »
Do you mean the line that what said about the guy holding the bucket?
Sorry, couldn't resist.  :)

Thats the one.

Offline retired nuke

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Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #18 on: Jun 22, 2010, 08:22 »
Why does a line from "History of the World: Part I (1981)" by Mel Brooks come to mind?

actually, monty python was in my mind (he must be a king... he hasn't got $h:t all over him...) when i wrote that....

 ;)
Remember who you love. Remember what is sacred. Remember what is true.
Remember that you will die, and that this day is a gift. Remember how you wish to live, may the blessing of the Lord be with you

Offline stormgoalie

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Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #19 on: Jun 22, 2010, 08:56 »
Heck, as long as you are not the Queen life is good right? :o ;D
WARNING: Translation of author's random thoughts may have resulted in the unintended introduction of grammatical errors, typos, technical inaccuracies, lies, propaganda, rhetoric, or blasphemy.

Offline Rennhack

Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #20 on: Jun 22, 2010, 09:11 »
Heck, as long as you are not the Queen life is good right? :o ;D

It's good to be the King... oh piss boy.

Offline Rennhack

Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #21 on: Jun 22, 2010, 09:16 »
On Topic:

Messages 17 - 22 would normally get deleted.  Again, because they are off topic and lend nothing of value to this thread.  I am purposefully doing this so that I have examples of how the site moderation philosophy works.

I have to admit, posting off topic IS one of the most fun things you can do on this site, unless you know where the games are hidden.

Content1

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Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #22 on: Jun 22, 2010, 09:45 »
Let me give an example of deletion, just need these key words

Obama - liberal - gulf disaster ineptitude - socialism

I give this about a 10 minute life.

Offline retired nuke

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Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #23 on: Jun 22, 2010, 10:01 »
Let me give an example of deletion, just need these key words

Obama - liberal - gulf disaster ineptitude - socialism

I give this about a 10 minute life.

usually, these type subject / topics get moved to GM POLISCI as a matter of following the forum rules.... ;)
Remember who you love. Remember what is sacred. Remember what is true.
Remember that you will die, and that this day is a gift. Remember how you wish to live, may the blessing of the Lord be with you

co60slr

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Re: Free Speech or Censorship?
« Reply #24 on: Jun 22, 2010, 10:54 »
usually, these type subject / topics get moved to GM POLISCI as a matter of following the forum rules.... ;)
I vote for a new GM section:  GM: Toilet.    :)  Violate Mike's rules and your post isn't deleted, it's put on the "wall of shame" with an automatic -100 point Karma deduction.   Naturally, one could plead their "case" publicly with the deleted post.  :)

Another idea would be to disallow anonymity.   If you want to "flame" someone, then "man up" and sign your first and last name.   It's easy to throw sticks and stones while unseen from the shadows.  If you want to see how that works, visit Facebook: Navy Nukes and see how BUPERS detailers and potential recruits are interacting in a public forum.   I don't see anyone wanting "go check your spelling" or "go Google the Internet" tied to your real name for public display.

You have all the "free speech" in the world.   However, you do not have the right to use the popularity of this website for YOUR agenda.   You can always go do what Mike did:  make a website, set your rules, and then gain your own popularity with your website content.  Send us a link...maybe we'll visit.  :)

Co60

 


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