Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake

[azkidd]

Updated report from Jim Walsh on Anderson Cooper 360-  "...A new problem.  Units 4, 5, and 6 contain spent fuel rods!  Another bad decision to store the nuclear waste next to the reactor."  Wow!!  Great, great reporting of the facts, and what is actually happening.

[Cycoticpenguin]

Updated report from Jim Walsh on Anderson Cooper 360-  "...A new problem.  Units 4, 5, and 6 contain spent fuel rods!  Another bad decision to store the nuclear waste next to the reactor."  Wow!!  Great, great reporting of the facts, and what is actually happening.

After the latest bout of media frenzy, Im not surprised anymore. AC360 is usually pretty decent, but everyone is running around like a chicken with their heads cut off.

[TWillis]

Loffy Muffin (interesting), these people are dealing with one of the top five seismic events in history, read well beyond design basis, a tsunami, also above design basis, six facilities in a world of hurt, most likely with homes destroyed..family hurt or missing...and you are comparing this to a paper mill...Wilco Tango Foxtrot!?
Note: this is my second attempt to post this...oh, the internet is slow, didn't work the way I thought it should, in the time that I thought it should..well I guess that is out of my control.

[OldHP]

Updated report from Jim Walsh on Anderson Cooper 360-  "...A new problem.  Units 4, 5, and 6 contain spent fuel rods!  Another bad decision to store the nuclear waste next to the reactor."  Wow!!  Great, great reporting of the facts, and what is actually happening.

Unit 4 fp fuel is on fire again....been for awhile.

It all depends on which report you are looking at - most are now equating the deaths from the 8.9 - 9.0 earthquake and resulting tsumami to the problems at Fukushima Daiichi not the other way around!

[azkidd]

I am choking.....I don't know why I am watching this.  You really need to tune in to CNN AC360 to realize how bad these reports are coming out.  Did you know that the "more modern plants" these days store spent fuel under ground?  According to Jim Walsh, anyway.

[Loffy Muffin]

did you really compare a paper mill to this situation??!

Yes, I compared it to a paper mill.  Because in a mill, you strip all the constraints away, you see what you have that works, what things can do-not what it is designed to do. What is possible.. not what can't be done.  Not what something is not suppose to do. You stay in your in "can't be done box", you'll never meet you time line for repair.. which what should have been done in the first couple hours.  "We have 2-3 days to get something to work.  what is possible in 2 days?, what works, what doesn't? "    
When working with tightly coupled systems, with little flexibility, you have to get in front of the problem or it will trigger a chain events related and unrelated that will complex the problem beyond what you ever imagined.  Have I connected all the dots for you chucky? Do i need to draw little stick pictures?  Puppets? Stick to what you are an expert at chucky, like gaming the navy for medical leave and stealing tax payer money.

 

I'm sure all of this work is easily done without knowing how safe the given area is after some of these hydrogen explosions and radiation levels constantly changing.  Speculation is one thing but you may have taken it a bit far with this post.[/quote

They waited too long to effect repairs was the problem...it's too late now.  You have a yard sale for a plant, high rad areas, probably contamination. They are in total reactive mode now, responding to one emergency after another.  
You had three days to helo in what you needed.  You have 3 plants to steal parts from.  You did have no unexpected radiation restrictions, parts of the plant would have been working or salvable, no venting off of Hydrogen and good weather, the plant structure is fine and survived the quake.  

No, I did not pass judgement on them until I knew they were not restricted by restraints that would push any time line pass any reasonable repair. if they didn't have a "go to hell mode", you can't get parts past QA, you need work packages, drawing, engineering stamps...then its impossible.  You have to remove those normal constraints.  If they were constrained by those factors, there would be nothing they could do in 2 days to respond. Or a month.  They need to have quick on site/HQ peer checks to execute work...ie paper mill mode. Or refinery mode.  Or chemical plant mode (do a lesser degree), or just about everywhere else but a nuke plant mode.

This situation was mostly avoidable but to do inaction by the site person to effect a clear repair plan early in the event, a chain reaction of events occurred leading to the destruction of 3, possible 4 plants with release of radiation to area.  The damage and release of radiation could have been avoided with proper leadership.  

And it isn't over yet.

And most of the nukes here feel it is justifiable.  And now we know why the industry is in the shape its in.  

[Cycoticpenguin]

I am choking.....I don't know why I am watching this.  You really need to tune in to CNN AC360 to realize how bad these reports are coming out.  Did you know that the "more modern plants" these days store spent fuel under ground?  According to Jim Walsh, anyway.

Here are some results of irresponsible reporting :

"What are the probabilities of North Korea orchestrating a under water explosive device that created a earthquake and tsunami directed at Japan and the nuclear power plants?"

"I honestly think this is horrible.
Plenty of people are going to be affected by these nuclear explosions.
Even people living around Japan."

"has anyone heard if the radiation is going to affect the US."

and haha, my personal favorite

"I saw a neutron ring with one of the reactors when it blew . This is a sign of radiation escaping."



I consider it an equal shame that people are this ignorant

[ski2313]

What's a neutron ring??? 

Lost in the midst of all that is going on, but a fact worth mentioning.... Since the initial earthquake, Japan has experienced nearly 400 aftershocks.. 44 of which registered greater than 6.0, and four of which were 7.0 or greater... These are major earthquakes, 4 of which were of the same magnitude that caused a fair amount of destruction in San Francisco in 1989.. I doubt it even computes for the people actually living through this nightmare.

[Nuclear NASCAR]

Friends,

Let us not allow one troll distract us from what is important.

Justin

Great advice that bears repeating (Less than an hour later)  We accomplish nothing with the puffery and quite frankly this thread IS NOT the one that needs it.  In 4 1/2 days y'all have posted 12 pages of great information, people have been educated, and I can't adequately express the pride I have in this single thread.

What say we refocus, huh?  (& Thanks for all the learning that all y'all have given not only to me but to all who have viewed this thread)  Don't forget that we are and will always be in the limelight and representatives of the industry just by being in it.

Peace,
Tom

[Cycoticpenguin]

What's a neutron ring??? 

Lost in the midst of all that is going on, but a fact worth mentioning.... Since the initial earthquake, Japan has experienced nearly 400 aftershocks.. 44 of which registered greater than 6.0, and four of which were 7.0 or greater... These are major earthquakes, 4 of which were of the same magnitude that caused a fair amount of destruction in San Francisco in 1989.. I doubt it even computes for the people actually living through this nightmare.

WOW! I remember a few 6's in the 90's when I lived in okinawa, and those were SCARY. I truly cant imagine the turmoil they are experiencing.

[Loffy Muffin]

Friends,

Let us not allow one troll distract us from what is important.

Justin

If they were given full freedom to effect repairs, the fault lies at the feet of the personal to take timely action to prevent what may be the death nell for new builds in the US.  In the US, it looks like you can take the gloves off and execute repairs with on the deck peer checks.  If they could not do that in Japan (and I don't know), then the site had their hands tied and the fault lies at the feet of corporate with their procedures.

The design held up enough through the quake.  It gave the personal 3 days to execute a plan to modify the current cooling system.  they failed.    

At any rate, its a PR nightmare.  

The important thing is the public perception which is in tatters....and justifiably so, I might add. If there is any significant radiation release...
The bottom line is you have to be able to show the public you can maintain the plant integrity in all conditions.  Overcome adversity.  Not make excuses.  Not cry its too tough. Can't be done.  

[vagabond]

My cape?  that is funny.  I guess the problem is "too hard".  I think the public having to flee the area thinks it is funny too because people that are paid to solve problems can't do their jobs.

See, there is nothing special about what I just described.  In a paper mill (and other similar plants) , this is standard weekend stuff to keep the mill running.  Of course, when the millwright didn't complete a weld the problem didn't extend pass the mill. But this plant should be in "paper mill" mode.  

Yeah,  I think they should just keep on doing what they are doing and eventually the core will cool down.  After  3 explosions all caught on tape, 2 completely trashed reactors, fire in expended fuel tank..no, two fires.  radiation releases.  High radiation alarms.  Contaminating an aircraft carrier 100 miles off shore.  Possible breach in the primary containment.  Plant looks like a yard sale.  Letting fuel run out of the EDG's.  The only thing we are missing is benny hill running around.  

I don't like to demean people or try to make them feel smaller but you are on the wrong level of thinking.  First of all, thank you for comparing paper mill normal weekend stuff, that's the first point that disqualifies you from this adult discussion.  Like many before have described you have no understanding of the level these people are on.  Not only technically or situationally, but the whole picture.  They have no power, lights, the environment they are working in is certainly extremely hot, but the radiological effects are most certainly lethal at certain points, then you talk about welding when they've had hydrogen explosions?   I don't know a welder that would volunteer for that job given any pay rate.  Your input isn't educated, aware, or even welcome.  You think you have all the solutions, but you cannot begin to comprehend the problems.  Take your negativity away from here and come back when you have gained some perspective and experience.  

When's the last time you were up for for almost four days straight, probably starved, dehydrated and just all together beat down and you actually worked in an environment comparable like this? Never I dare say.  Sure that's an assumption and an error trap, but unless you start spewing more bs I know it's true.  The blame game is not welcome in the scenario, and it certainly doesn't help us understand or learn.

These people are heroes.  For you to belitte their actions and say you can do better is disgraceful.  Sure, they may have made some mistakes.  Given the situation there's no way you can say you'd perform better or do different.  To do otherwise is ignorant and arrogant.  Most of these people understand that their families have either already perished, or that they will in the performance of their jobs.  They have no substitutes my friend.  They have proven they are willing to give the ultimate sacrifice for their countrymen in the face of sheer uncertainty with the potential of failed or inadequate equipment.  What have you done?!?

By the way, letting the fuel run out is completely understandable.  They are trying to maintain the water level in 3 reactors with no desgined systems, and maintain the water levels in 6 spent fuel pools with minimaly personnel.  You are also completely ignoring the logistical issues a 8.9 magnitude earthwauke with following tsunami equivalent to one experienced every 1000 years brings.  Gain some perspective, seriosuly.  It's easier to point fingers than it is to understand their mindset.

[drayer54]

Thanks Vegabond, that was   ...
Also thanks to all of you who have had great insight in the last few days, it has been very informative for me. I already feel more qualified (despite being equally qualified) than Charlie M to operate a BWR ( ) . I also had a great proposal for the PR Issue here.
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,12787.msg140157.html#msg140157

My serious question though, is that I received a cell phone alert that Radiation Levels were lowering at the site. Anyone else hear anything like this? I didn't see anything on here or google. ...
Thanks to all of you, except for the mill guy....

[Matthew B]

 
 I would expect EDG's to be Helo'd in.  

That right there shows that you've never been granted access to the vital areas.  EDG's big enough to run any ECCS pumps are too big to be moved by a helicopter.

Or a gas powered forklift.

[vagabond]

If they were given full freedom to effect repairs, the fault lies at the feet of the personal to take timely action to prevent what may be the death nell for new builds in the US.  In the US, it looks like you can take the gloves off and execute repairs with on the deck peer checks.  If they could not do that in Japan (and I don't know), then the site had their hands tied and the fault lies at the feet of corporate with their procedures. The design held up enough through the quake.  It gave the personal 3 days to execute a plan to modify the current cooling system.  they failed.    

At any rate, its a PR nightmare.  

The important thing is the public perception which is in tatters....and justifiably so, I might add. If there is any significant radiation release...
The bottom line is you have to be able to show the public you can maintain the plant integrity in all conditions.  Overcome adversity.  Not make excuses.  Not cry its too tough. Can't be done.  

Corporate procedures....Are you kidding me?  These are highly technical procedures with the only concern being the public and their health.  Who cares about making money, everyone else is my concern. The are OEM level procedures driven at protecting the surrounding environment.  You may think, "The huge evil corporation just wants to make money", but what that equates to on this level is the negative impact or public opinion can drive petitions for further plants to be built or even operated.  

I have faith that the only thing these operators care about is protecting the public, their actions so far have proven it.  These people are not crying or even trying to give up.  Rather it's the contrary.  They seem to be requesting the help they need and giving it their all in this beyond design basis accident. While not many have said it that's probably how it should be classified.  They experienced an earthquake of 8.9 to 9.1 magnitude, which is many orders greater than the 8.2 they were designed for, plus a tsunami equivalent to one occuring every 1000 years.  When we design for that level people will cry wolf when comets hit the area close a nuclear power plant.  You can't design for everything, but you can be reassured that theirs was very robust.

[Loffy Muffin]

 I don't like to demean people or try to make them feel smaller but you are on the wrong level of thinking.  First of all, thank you for comparing paper mill normal weekend stuff, that's the first point that disqualifies you from this adult discussion.

I'm a site installation manager at Exelon quad city responsible for the turbine installation. I might have an idea on how to execute a project.  Maybe even a nuclear one.  At a major plant.  In a major outage. On complex capital equipment.  No, I don't feel demeaned or smaller because of your statement.  

Look, this looks like a failure of the personal to adequately address the problem, formulate a plan, and execute a plan to prevent destroying 3 possible 4 reactors and releasing radiation to the environment.  That is all I saying.  I guess I am a lonely voice here and it doesn't mesh with group think, but this failure to me is errors in personal to execute.  The site wants to protect its own, I guess and rush to defend this debacle by blaming the quake/tsunami, and doesn't want to even discuss the possibility that is accident is personal related. Even though a large percentage of the accidents are, indeed, human error.  

Its 95% chance its either personal or corporate failure.  I hope its corporate.  It looks like the equipment held together for a long enough time to provide a safe environment for 2-3 days to allow repairs to be made.   They were not made.  And it doesn't appear or communicated and what the response was, if any.    

[azkidd]

Mr. Muffin, you have a point.  Since there is no infrastructure available...(ELECTRICITY, SERVICE AIR, FUEL, ETC.) I suppose a handy man tool box of crescent wrenches, socket wrenches, different screw drivers, direct from the local Auto Zone, may have given them the opportunity to convert those pumps, valves, MCC Centers, Diesel Generators, to Hydro power from the sea...in a timely manner, of course.   God Help Excelon on their EPU!!  You are still at Excelon?

[Cycoticpenguin]

I'm a site installation manager at Exelon quad city responsible for the turbine installation. I might have an idea on how to execute a project.  Maybe even a nuclear one.  At a major plant.  In a major outage. On complex capital equipment.  No, I don't feel demeaned or smaller because of your statement.  

Look, this looks like a failure of the personal to adequately address the problem, formulate a plan, and execute a plan to prevent destroying 3 possible 4 reactors and releasing radiation to the environment.  That is all I saying.  I guess I am a lonely voice here and it doesn't mesh with group think, but this failure to me is errors in personal to execute.  The site wants to protect its own, I guess and rush to defend this debacle by blaming the quake/tsunami, and doesn't want to even discuss the possibility that is accident is personal related. Even though a large percentage of the accidents are, indeed, human error.  

Its 95% chance its either personal or corporate failure.  I hope its corporate.  It looks like the equipment held together for a long enough time to provide a safe environment for 2-3 days to allow repairs to be made.   They were not made.  And it doesn't appear or communicated and what the response was, if any.    

Tell me loffy, what EOP covers 8.9 earthquakes and tsunamis? Hmm.... You're experience is limited to controlled, well maintained areas, not emergency response.  I will agree that other things are going on, but you need to account for the situation, not just the black and white on paper.

Now, You have voiced your opinion. We have all heard it, multiple times. No one is going to overtly agree with you, either because they dont, or fear of reprisal. theres no need to continue your push. We understand your position. Now, I was serious, if you really dont have any productive statements to make, or at least questions or condolences stop posting, or, heres an idea... START A THREAD.  Get a gold membership and post it there. Big man on campus here can surely spare a dollar a day.

[Xenon_Free]

Some of what you said is true, I respect the attitude to go against the "group think" that is what nuclear power is all about.  I would give you some Karma if I could (or knew how) for that statement alone.

But, I believe it premature to assign any blame for where the plant is currently at.  Neither you nor I have any in depth knowledge of the plant conditions from the beginning of this until now.  To say that they had 2 or 3 days to formulate and execute a plan to repair or build entirely new safety systems for cooling the reactor, another cooling system for the containment, another for the spent fuel pools for all 6 units with degrading and rapidly changing plant conditions seems... unrealistic.  Should/could they be doing more?  I don't have any idea.  
Could you change out a high pressure turbine in three days?  Never mind that you first need to address that you are in the dark, in high temperatures, and only have hand powered chainfalls and tools?  Nearly impossible given weeks.  Surely you must see that?

In any case thank you for your thoughts.

XF

[drayer54]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

I just saw that they evacuated the crew and that Tokyo is getting .08mR (if I did my conversion correctly), which is not good (but not bad)....
I haven't found anything to defend the CNBC alert of lowering radiation levels (maybe them trying to recover GE stock), but I have found the evacuation articles.

Just thought I'd update and steer away from mill guy (Excuse me, Mr. Muffin  )

[vagabond]

I'm a site installation manager at Exelon quad city responsible for the turbine installation. I might have an idea on how to execute a project.  Maybe even a nuclear one.  At a major plant.  In a major outage. On complex capital equipment.  No, I don't feel demeaned or smaller because of your statement.  

Look, this looks like a failure of the personal to adequately address the problem, formulate a plan, and execute a plan to prevent destroying 3 possible 4 reactors and releasing radiation to the environment.  That is all I saying.  I guess I am a lonely voice here and it doesn't mesh with group think, but this failure to me is errors in personal to execute.  The site wants to protect its own, I guess and rush to defend this debacle by blaming the quake/tsunami, and doesn't want to even discuss the possibility that is accident is personal related. Even though a large percentage of the accidents are, indeed, human error.  

Its 95% chance its either personal or corporate failure.  I hope its corporate.  It looks like the equipment held together for a long enough time to provide a safe environment for 2-3 days to allow repairs to be made.   They were not made.  And it doesn't appear or communicated and what the response was, if any.    

What it all comes down to in my opinion is no pointing fingers for now.  It'll happen at a point certainly, and the industry will learn and grow. With the limited amount of information and understanding we have now certain assumptions or solutions go out the window.  While I realize some of your solutions are good, the situation changes when you deal with the catastrophic earthquake/monstrosity of a tsunami combination.  Seawater destroys electrical components and switchgear.  Apparently they have both 50 and 60 Hz in that area, which brings in other problems.  Personnel wise they are surely stretched thin.  The point of my responses is to show that there is nothing to be gained from the blame game without 100% accurate information and comprehension.  I'm sure this experience will make us all better in the months and years to come, but in the short term pointing out faults in a vacuum gains nothing.

[Cycoticpenguin]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

I just saw that they evacuated the crew and that Tokyo is getting .08mR (if I did my conversion correctly), which is not good (but not bad)....
I haven't found anything to defend the CNBC alert of lowering radiation levels (maybe them trying to recover GE stock), but I have found the evacuation articles.

Just thought I'd update and steer away from mill guy

Considering the average american gets .5mR per day.... (according to ANS)..... 0.08mR seems highly inconsequential.


and your "lowering rad levels"

"Crews put that fire out, and by Tuesday afternoon, Edano said, radiation readings -- which had reached dangerously high levels at the plant earlier -- had decreased."
 

is probably to do with that.

[drayer54]

Considering the average american gets .5mR per day.... (according to NRC)..... 0.08mR seems highly inconsequential.
and your "lowering rad levels"

"Crews put that fire out, and by Tuesday afternoon, Edano said, radiation readings -- which had reached dangerously high levels at the plant earlier -- had decreased."
 s probably to do with that.

Probably,The media probably took the two words they wanted to hear and ran with it (also CNBC trying to recover GE)....
Good call on that one. Is it really .5mR per day? sounds high (PM me on that one)...
Anyways, good follow up because I still see nothing to support the lowering claim other than that.

[tr]

There is at least some, if not a lot, of truth to what Loffy has said.  The (strongly suspected) core damage in Unit 2 was due to core uncovery due to letting the ONLY running diesel pump run out of fuel.  The second core uncovery was due to inadvertently due to not keeping the RCS vent (I assume SRV) open, causing RCS pressure to increase above the diesel pump shut off head.  Because the Unit 2 core got damaged, the radiation levels around the plant got much worse, the control room had to be evacuated, etc.  Prior to this damage, it appears the units were relatively accessible (especially, 2, 4, 5, and 6).  

It does not appear that fire hoses were prestaged to the SFPs once the extent of the loss of power became known.  Had such hoses been run, it would have been relatively simple to get water into those SFPs.

Part of the issue is that detailed information (what is broken, what is flooded, what was washed away) has not been released.  I know in our Emergency Response drills, there is a great deal of emphasis given to keeping the news media, INPO, etc updated.  This update includes much more detail than what has come out to date.  

Yes it would be difficult to transport a diesel that could run an ECCS pump.  However, one big enough to run a pump equivalent to a CRD hydraulic pump or a standby liquid control pump is probably possible, as would one or more to run the equipment associated with the normal fuel pool cooling system and its heat removal system (if that system is still intact, which is unknown).  

Once the first secondary containment blew out, or hydrogen got detected in the secondary containment, why weren't panels taken off the remaining units to allow crossflow to vent any hydrogen?

Look at this picture from yesterday, from before the Unit 2 core damage occurred.  While they may be too small to see, there does not seem to be a huge amount of portable equipment staged near any unit.

http://www.digitalglobe.com/downloads/featured_images/japan_earthquaketsu_fukushima_daiichi_march14_2011_dg.jpg

The above does definitely NOT mean the people fighting this disaster at the plant are not heros, working in unbelievably difficult situations with severe concerns about their family and friends.  It does mean that, based on what little we can find out from far away, there does not seem to to have been a huge mobilzation in day one or two to mitigate the event.

[Xenon_Free]

Anyone know why they are having difficulty in getting water into their spent fuel pool at Unit 4?  The core is offloaded, which means it is in the spent fuel pool.  This means the fuel pool gates are probably removed which means if they inject water into the Reactor Vessel it will spill over into the Fuel Pool.  If, for some strange reason fuel pool gates are installed then filling the reactor vessel should cause level to overflow into the Fuel Pool Skimmer Surge Tanks and then back into the spent fuel pool.  I don't think they could be designed that differently from our MARK 1.  Maybe they are having flowrate to the vessel issues or maybe they are just that different in design due to the age of the plant.

XF