Which to choose? MM EM ET (ELT?)/career options

[HydroDave63]

Only go nuke if you want to be a nuke,....

If you want the GI Bill, or a twenty year career, or anything else then choose something else,...

Very true...sonar tech makes rate pretty quickly, no ORSE hassles, you have a wider array of ships/subs to choose from [plus a way better chance of getting beach liberty in Phattaya or Da Nang or Subic or Tasmania] rather than simply being stuck on a floating 5000 person crime wave with a noisy 24/7 airshow topside.

[Fermi2]

Sigh, I still remember Farrah Fawcett whispering "say charged disk again baby" in my ear.

[HydroDave63]

Sigh, I still remember Farrah Fawcett whispering "say charged disk again baby" in my ear.

And then you woke up, with the LELT dipping your hand in a cup of warm water, right?

[DLGN25]

When submarine hulls were teak some of the boomers carried a doctor instead of a Corpsman does that still happen?

Not since they fixed the leaks.
We had a doctor, trained in nuclear medicine, on Bainbridge.  He hated it, but it was better then a MASH unit.

[JoeSBK]

The OP should really heed those words,...

I've lost count of how many times I've cautioned this,...

Only go nuke if you want to be a nuke,....

If you want the GI Bill, or a twenty year career, or anything else then choose something else,...

Propay, bonuses, fast rate advancement, none of it, none of it, none of it will make you happy if you're miserable being a nuke,...

But if you like it, if you know you want to be in the propulsion department of a nuclear submarine by all means go for it, 'cause it's the only way you'll get there as an enlisted sailor,...

It ain't "beam me up Scotty" stuff, but it can be okay if that's your cup of tea,....

And the ELTs are the only ones privileged to be "Masters of Their Domain",...

Good points I guess, I want to go nuke because of the College perks, but I guess those are non existent, but I mean, can you seriously get loans you only have to start paying back in 8-9 years?

[spekkio]

I've been out of the game for a while wrt college loans, but when I went in the early 2000s you saw the financial aid specialist. Depending on your income (or your parents if they still claimed you as a dependent for the deduction on their income taxes), you qualified for a certain amount of subsidized or unsubsidized federal loans (or grants if your income was exceptionally low). Beyond a certain maximum, you had to take private loans. All of those numbers would be different in 2013.

Your student loans were due when you stopped being a full-time student, and if you had trouble getting employment or had financial hardship you could just notify the company and defer the payments (interest kept accruing though, and some motivated people would pay down some of their on the loans while working part-time in undergraduate school). Student loans are exceptionally easy to work with to defer payment compared to other credit card/loans. And when you do start repaying them, the interest is deducted from your annual income for taxes. That's not a whole lot, but it helps.

But to put things in perspective, I paid off $25k in student loans in my first two years of the Navy, during which time I made $48k and $40k/year, respectively, which includes BAH/BAS and the nuclear accession bonuses. The loans were low because I had an academic scholarship to a state school based on SAT scores so the loans were to support room/books; if you're 'nuke material' you probably scored well enough to qualify for scholarships yourself. Paying off the loans is about prioritizing and I chose to not have cable and internet and drove a cheap car instead of paying double my loans back over the life of the loan. Student loans are only scary if you spend a lot on a private university and come out the other end with no job prospects because you majored in something dumb and spent your free time playing GTA V.

There aren't really any college perks wrt being an enlisted nuke that you couldn't get through any other rating -- all Navy servicemembers can get the GI bill and some random A or C school credits that medical schools wouldn't give two poops about. Also, I wouldn't expect medical schools to know about the Navy nuke program or how quickly they feed you the information (this is unfortunate because if they did then it would certainly give you a leg up against the competition because it would support your ability to succeed in medical school). They're more likely just to put you into the 'prior military service' blanket category.

[Fermi2]

And then you woke up, with the LELT dipping your hand in a cup of warm water, right?

  Yet ANOTHER Non ELT Type hater who is jealous because the Pussycat Dolls don't have HIM on speed dial!

[HalfHazzard]

I could possibly do that, I don't think I would be able to pay off the debt in time though, you also have residency, which you only get paid 50k a year for 4 years, med school, plus college, adds up to around 230k, but not only that, it's 4 years of college, 4 years of med school, and 4 years residency. All while getting a job in the mean time is pretty hard, most people can't even work during med school due to intense studying, I'm not from a privileged family.

I'm talking to the college counselor on Monday, So I'll see what's feasible or not.

Not to pile on into this thread, but readjust your focus here.

For the last decade and more, the federal government has been loaning money to college kids to get USELESS degrees (let alone medicine which there is a shortage of) who end up unemployed and living with their parents.  If you doubt me, get a subscription to the Wall Street Journal, it's been well documented.  As if this isn't crazy enough, our politicians feel that the money isn't easy enough to get.

So consider: you're not the first kid to go to medical school with lack of funds.  Not every doctor out there comes from a family that can pay Harvard tuition for their kids for 8+ years.  And you're (almost) guaranteed a job if you finish and get that residency done.

Have you checked into programs that repay med school loans if you commit to practice in a rural area for some time?  That's just option that I personally know someone who took.

Yeah the military is an option, and probably a good one if you can put life on hold for 6 years.  Plenty of us on here did that or more and it worked out.  But unlike college loans, nothing else will be given to you, and you still have to ask for those.

Good luck.

[spekkio]

For the last decade and more, the federal government has been loaning money to college kids to get USELESS degrees (let alone medicine which there is a shortage of) who end up unemployed and living with their parents.  If you doubt me, get a subscription to the Wall Street Journal, it's been well documented.  As if this isn't crazy enough, our politicians feel that the money isn't easy enough to get.

I don't think that the degree is the problem per se; people with college education eventually earn a lot more than people without on average.

I think the problem is that my generation was told a college degree will entitle you to a near 6-figure income, and thus many students do nothing more than [not] attend class for 15-20 hours a week and spend their free time doing things that generally aren't productive. Frequently I would attend lectures where a class of 200-300 students widdled down to 30-50 regulars during the semester, except when exams were given. So when someone graduates college and their resume is filled with bullshit paired with a mediocre GPA, their job prospects are slim. Now add in the fact that employers don't like taking chances on young 20 somethings with no outstanding special talents because they like to jump ship often or call in drunk on Fridays.

[JoeSBK]

Hmm, I guess I should see what my options are.

Is it possible to go to college while enlisted at all? my only problem with college is room and board, since I'll be busy with academics, I won't be able to be as reliable to my employers.

Would student loans pay for food/campus rooming?

[DLGN25]

Hmm, I guess I should see what my options are.

Is it possible to go to college while enlisted at all? my only problem with college is room and board, since I'll be busy with academics, I won't be able to be as reliable to my employers.

Would student loans pay for food/campus rooming?

Go see to college career counseling to help you figure out what you want to do. 

I did the nuke program, had no time for family, let alone getting a quality college degree.  In at 19, out at 25 with a wife and a house.  Five years later while working with skills the Navy taught me,  I had my degree at age 30.  And yes earned with the help of the GI Bill back then, I became an accountant.

You do not want to go that route. 

Time for you to go to a different site to try and figure out what you want to do.  What is offered here is a difficult path with a different future.  Here is not the place I believe you want to be.

[spekkio]

Is it possible to go to college while enlisted at all?

Not during your first tour as a nuke.

You can take SOME college credits via PACE courses and such (which amounts to self-study with a CD and textbook), but you cannot be a full-time student while you are enlisted in the military. You'd end up with 2 or 3 classes under your belt, not even a semester's worth of coursework.

As a nuke, you'd have to get a cushy shore duty, which is really hard to get as a nuke, to be able to attend night school part time. But that requires reenlisting and another sea tour. The de-facto nuke shore duty is prototype, which is shift work and thus doesn't allow you to attend college. You're also looking at 10-12 years of commitment to the Navy to be able to do it, and the shore tour is only 2-3 years which won't allow you to finish school just going part-time at night. There are no undergraduate shore duties that put you through school akin to NPS/NWC for officers and select few SNCOs with undergrad degrees.

So, keeping in mind that you originally said that you already have post-Navy plans and don't want to be a career Sailor, I'd bet a large sum of money that getting a degree while serving in the military isn't going to happen for you. You'll be too busy qualifying and learning your rate, and by the time you get good enough at your job to even start thinking about taking college coursework you will be 1-2 years from saying "see ya" to the Navy. By that point, you might as well wait until you get out and use the GI bill instead of kill yourself to get 9 credit-hours of work done in a couple of years with mediocre grades because you have no access to professors.

There are some people who have done their bachelor's while on their first tour, but they weren't submariners or nukes and even they said it required non-stop work and a high amount of discipline to finish.

my only problem with college is room and board, since I'll be busy with academics, I won't be able to be as reliable to my employers.

Would student loans pay for food/campus rooming?

All good questions for a college financial aid counselor. Living off campus and doing your own grocery shopping will cut costs on rent and food (bonus: they also don't kick you out over the summer so you can stay local and continue to hold your job(s)), but you'll have to find a way to get to/from college. The university I attended allowed you to use the local bus system for free.

Also, spend some time on the internet searching for scholarships/grants that can help you out.

As for working part-time, schedule all your classes only in the morning or only in the evening to the max extent possible. If it's anything like when I attended college, you won't have a big issue until the 10 or 11 am class. The kick in the balls is going to be labwork if you do a technical major (and you should if you're trying to get into medical school or just generally want to be employed after college).

And if you do decide to enlist for the GI bill because the numbers don't add up, this goes back to my original advice: Pick a rating with a 4 year commitment that you think will be interesting to you. Because when it comes to the GI bill, it doesn't matter what you do in the Navy, the 6-8 year nuke tour (depending if you STAR for that extra stripe) is going to pay the same $18,700 tuition and E-5 BAH that the 4 year BM tour will pay.

[HeavyD]

I briefly touched on this in an earlier response but wanted to make sure it is addressed adequately.

The college credits that the recruiter is boasting about are real.  However, as I said earlier, they are RECOMMENDATIONS made by ACE (American Council on Education).  A college/university is not obligated nor required to give you those credits based on your service.

Second, and this is probably more important for your specific scenario, to maximize those credits, you are going to have to get your degree from one of the handful or so colleges/universities that offer specialized degrees or degrees targeted towards certain vocations that your Navy experience translates into. 

For Nukes, two of those colleges are Excelsior and Thomas Edison State College.

Here is a degree program for a Navy Nuke MM from Excelsior (BS in Nuclear Engineering Technology):
https://my.excelsior.edu/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=fef0af5d-4fa7-428d-b83f-6fb2f0debea0&groupId=78666

Thomas Edison State College, Navy Nuke of any rate (BS in Applied Science and Technology in Nuclear Engineering Technology):
http://www.tesc.edu/ast/bsast/Nuclear-Engineering.cfm

So, what is so bad about those degrees?  Nothing, if you want to work in the Nuclear industry and don't want a job that requires an actual Engineering degree.  Eng Tech degrees are more about application of Engineering based concepts in an industrial type setting.  Engineering degrees are about analysis, calculational application and design of systems and/or structures and processes in a variety of fields.

If a job says "requires a degree in an engineering discipline" and you have an engineering tech degree, you aren't eligible for that job.

I don't post this information to dissuade you; I post this so that you have a clearer picture of the real world application of what the recruiter is using to sell the Nuclear Power Program to you.  Is the recruiter wrong?  No.  Is the recruiter a Nuke?  That's a question to ask:0

My recruiter was a MS (now CS, Culinary Specialist, i.e. a cook).  I asked him what he knew about the Nuke program and he told me "Well, I don't know a whole lot.  I hear it's a tough program, quite a few people don't make it through, Nukes have big bonuses and they get advanced pretty quick."  (I still appreciate his honesty.  Maybe I had a unique experience.)

Do I say these things because I am against the program?  Absolutely not.  I thoroughly enjoyed being a Nuke; so much so that I spent 20 years on Active Duty.  I had a pretty quick advancement up through Chief (E-7) and would have made Master Chief (E-9) easily if I hadn't screwed up and did something that I knew better than to do.  (that's a different story for a different time).

In short, I want to ensure that you have the information in front of you to be able to make the best decision for you.  If you join as a Nuke and end up being miserable, it will effect your performance, which in turn will get the attention of your Chief and has the potential to effect your entire division.  You don't want to be that guy/gal.

We here can offer our past experiences and advice.  We CANNOT make the decision for you.  Research, soul search, try and figure out at least a short range (1 - 2 year) and medium range (2 - 5 year) plan that includes what you want to be doing at the end of those phases.  Do what will end up being best for YOU.

Best of luck to you, in everything!

[SpaceJustice]

Not during your first tour as a nuke.



There are some people who have done their bachelor's while on their first tour, but they weren't submariners or nukes and even they said it required non-stop work and a high amount of discipline to finish.

Not entirely true.  There were several individuals in my department who were able to finish bachelor's and master's degrees on the submarine.  The trick is finishing your quals quickly and working either during off-crew (SSBN/SSGN exclusive) or getting a boat that is going into a refueling overhaul.

[JoeSBK]

I briefly touched on this in an earlier response but wanted to make sure it is addressed adequately.

The college credits that the recruiter is boasting about are real.  However, as I said earlier, they are RECOMMENDATIONS made by ACE (American Council on Education).  A college/university is not obligated nor required to give you those credits based on your service.

Second, and this is probably more important for your specific scenario, to maximize those credits, you are going to have to get your degree from one of the handful or so colleges/universities that offer specialized degrees or degrees targeted towards certain vocations that your Navy experience translates into. 

For Nukes, two of those colleges are Excelsior and Thomas Edison State College.

Here is a degree program for a Navy Nuke MM from Excelsior (BS in Nuclear Engineering Technology):
https://my.excelsior.edu/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=fef0af5d-4fa7-428d-b83f-6fb2f0debea0&groupId=78666

Thomas Edison State College, Navy Nuke of any rate (BS in Applied Science and Technology in Nuclear Engineering Technology):
http://www.tesc.edu/ast/bsast/Nuclear-Engineering.cfm

So, what is so bad about those degrees?  Nothing, if you want to work in the Nuclear industry and don't want a job that requires an actual Engineering degree.  Eng Tech degrees are more about application of Engineering based concepts in an industrial type setting.  Engineering degrees are about analysis, calculational application and design of systems and/or structures and processes in a variety of fields.

If a job says "requires a degree in an engineering discipline" and you have an engineering tech degree, you aren't eligible for that job.

I don't post this information to dissuade you; I post this so that you have a clearer picture of the real world application of what the recruiter is using to sell the Nuclear Power Program to you.  Is the recruiter wrong?  No.  Is the recruiter a Nuke?  That's a question to ask:0

My recruiter was a MS (now CS, Culinary Specialist, i.e. a cook).  I asked him what he knew about the Nuke program and he told me "Well, I don't know a whole lot.  I hear it's a tough program, quite a few people don't make it through, Nukes have big bonuses and they get advanced pretty quick."  (I still appreciate his honesty.  Maybe I had a unique experience.)

Do I say these things because I am against the program?  Absolutely not.  I thoroughly enjoyed being a Nuke; so much so that I spent 20 years on Active Duty.  I had a pretty quick advancement up through Chief (E-7) and would have made Master Chief (E-9) easily if I hadn't screwed up and did something that I knew better than to do.  (that's a different story for a different time).

In short, I want to ensure that you have the information in front of you to be able to make the best decision for you.  If you join as a Nuke and end up being miserable, it will effect your performance, which in turn will get the attention of your Chief and has the potential to effect your entire division.  You don't want to be that guy/gal.

We here can offer our past experiences and advice.  We CANNOT make the decision for you.  Research, soul search, try and figure out at least a short range (1 - 2 year) and medium range (2 - 5 year) plan that includes what you want to be doing at the end of those phases.  Do what will end up being best for YOU.

Best of luck to you, in everything!

Thanks so much, I won't be joining the nukes then, I'm looking into Air Force careers and it seems completely possible to get alot of college work done in a few careers, especially linguist.

[Fermi2]

I bet he realized he'd never meet the ELT Hot Babe standard.

[HydroDave63]

I bet he realized he'd never meet the ELT Hot Babe standard.

Oh, I'm sure you ELT(SS) types would find an Air Force guy to BE a 'Hot Babe' 

[spekkio]

I'm looking into Air Force careers and it seems completely possible to get alot of college work done in a few careers, especially linguist.

Good luck. Although even though we like to make fun of the cushy AF now and then, I'd be weary of any promises your recruiter is making that you can get significant college coursework done during your enlistment.

[Fermi2]

Good luck. Although even though we like to make fun of the cushy AF now and then, I'd be weary of any promises your recruiter is making that you can get significant college coursework done during your enlistment.

Things may have changed but my brother averaged 25 hours of golfing a week during his airforce time with 4 of those on his duty day..

[HydroDave63]

Things may have changed but my brother averaged 25 hours of golfing a week during his airforce time with 4 of those on his duty day..

One of my jobs post-Navy was as a rent-a-cop. My dayshift relief (Chair Force guy) was complaining he had just finished a 24 hour "alert". Apparently he had to eat MREs, stay comfy watching TV in his lizard suit and be available to fuel a plane if it needed it. I figured there was no point trying to convey 6 weeks of water hours for two broke flash distillers, making turns barely above steerageway in order to maintain reserve feed, port & starboard feed control watches in 120 degree engineroom, every squid reeking of crotchrot and sweat because no one could catch the 30 minute potable water window to shower and not be able to eat cold stuff from cans on paper plates.

Olangapo and Guam in hot humid spring vs. Minot and Ellsworth in the winter.... you call the play!  

[JoeSBK]

Good luck. Although even though we like to make fun of the cushy AF now and then, I'd be weary of any promises your recruiter is making that you can get significant college coursework done during your enlistment.

Thanks, and don't worry, one of my brothers is AF and he will help me with get the most logical (best?) contract agreement.

But the recruiter seems like an awesome guy, he said if I sign up for the 6 year enlistment I'll get to meet Micheal Jackson and become a nuclear air bomber in the mega-death steel regiment!

[Fermi2]

LOL!

[HydroDave63]

But the recruiter seems like an awesome guy, he said if I sign up for the 6 year enlistment I'll get to meet Micheal Jackson and become a nuclear air bomber in the mega-death steel regiment!

In other words, filthy greasy with hydraulic fluid and burnt rubber, while changing tires on a KC-135 (that was built before your parents were born) out of March ARB, in crushing summer heat listening to salsa music on 96.3 FM, right? 

[DLGN25]

Thanks so much, I won't be joining the nukes then, I'm looking into Air Force careers and it seems completely possible to get alot of college work done in a few careers, especially linguist.

What a loser, the Air Force option, like the Navy will soon learn.   I only hope he does not become a doctor...