RICKOVER: THE BIRTH OF NUCLEAR POWER

[Marlin]

RICKOVER: THE BIRTH OF NUCLEAR POWER

Rickover: The Birth of Nuclear Power will broadcast on PBS, December 9th at 8 p.m. (check local listings); please check this site for updates on DVD availability.
Combative, provocative and searingly blunt, Admiral Hyman G. Rickover was a flamboyant maverick, a unique American hero. When few thought it possible, then-Captain Rickover undertook to harness the power of the atom to drive the first nuclear-powered submarine, the USS Nautilus, whose trip under the polar ice pack was one of the great adventure stories of the 1950s. Later, Rickover built the world's first commercial nuclear power plant at Shippingport, PA. Rickover's achievements made him into a national celebrity, and he appeared on the cover of Time magazine. Many questioned Rickover's goal of an all nuclear navy, and others questioned his creation of a technocratic elite, his own navy within the Navy. However, few contested that he had transformed the Navy and changed the course of America's technological development.
Today, questions about nuclear power have arisen again, in the wake of the disaster in Japan, yet nuclear power remains one of the main alternatives to fossil fuels. Many wonder whether America can maintain its technological pre-eminence and whether we can still build and manage large-scale projects. To understand these issues, we would do well to consider the story of the man who created the nuclear navy as well as the civilian nuclear power industry: Hyman G. Rickover.
Rickover: The Birth of Nuclear Power won Best Feature Documentary at the 2014 GI Film Festival.

http://manifoldproductions.com/AdmiralRickoverfilm.html

[RDTroja]

I have a lot of respect for Rickover's tenacity and his insight. But to give him credit for Commercial Nuclear Power is a bit naive. Nuclear Power plants were coming whether or not he was involved. He was there at the right time and his backing made the money flow a little easier, but it was coming no matter who was there.

[Marlin]

I have a lot of respect for Rickover's tenacity and his insight. But to give him credit for Commercial Nuclear Power is a bit naive. Nuclear Power plants were coming whether or not he was involved. He was there at the right time and his backing made the money flow a little easier, but it was coming no matter who was there.

   The person who is first is usually given the credit, many things would have happened anyway and sometimes it is the first to acomplish or patent an idea who is given credit. Sometimes post-mortem as with Tesla. Rickovers mangement and engineering skill set the tone for naval and commercial power. I guess we can blame him for the overriding preference for light water reactors. He pulled the Sea Wolf liquid metal reactor and after that fast breeders and other styles of reactors were put on the back burner.

[HydroDave63]

I have a lot of respect for Rickover's tenacity and his insight. But to give him credit for Commercial Nuclear Power is a bit naive. Nuclear Power plants were coming whether or not he was involved. He was there at the right time and his backing made the money flow a little easier, but it was coming no matter who was there.

Indeed, were it not for a pesky accident at Chelyabinsk-40 in 1949, we'd be discussing Igor Kurchatov (after all, Obninsk did actually parallel to grid in 1954)

[GLW]

........... Rickovers mangement and engineering skill set the tone for naval and commercial power. I guess we can blame him for the overriding preference for light water reactors......

As best as I have read Rickover was focused on submarines being independent from the atmosphere as part of a blue water global presence US Navy,...

IF, he had such sweeping influence on commercial reactors most of the US builds would have been standardized PWRs as opposed to the polyglot collection of "no two identical" nuke power stations we currently operate,...

I posted some early AEC programs a couple of weeks ago which better explain how the US commercial nuke landscape ended up where it is as opposed to any "Rickover paradigm",....

The preference for light water reactors more likely resides in his influence cache because the managers, corporate directors, and operators Rickover's program flooded the marketplace with were familiar with light water operations and like many military disciplined engineers those persons tend to rely on the proven and familiar as opposed to the contrary,...

There are parallels to this in the Russian experience as the USSR fielded a higher diversity of naval nuclear reactor types and their electrical generation infrastructure also reflected a higher diversity of reacor types and applications,...

The Russians also seem to have been consistent (and ergo) behind the American curve for quality and depth of protection for both naval and civilian power reactor design and operation,...

I sense that at times we lionize Rickover beyond what he actually did with profound insight and clarity of purpose, into facets of endeavour Rickover really did not give more than  cursory thought to,...

And, like lots of folks, as he got older he tended to blurt out quips and observations based on decades of reflection but lacking the context for full understanding of those ruminations,...

[Marlin]

As best as I have read Rickover was focused on submarines being independent from the atmosphere as part of a blue water global presence US Navy,...

IF, he had such sweeping influence on commercial reactors most of the US builds would have been standardized PWRs as opposed to the polyglot collection of "no two identical" nuke power stations we currently operate,...

I posted some early AEC programs a couple of weeks ago which better explain how the US commercial nuke landscape ended up where it is as opposed to any "Rickover paradigm",....

The preference for light water reactors more likely resides in his influence cache because the managers, corporate directors, and operators Rickover's program flooded the marketplace with were familiar with light water operations and like many military disciplined engineers those persons tend to rely on the proven and familiar as opposed to the contrary,...

There are parallels to this in the Russian experience as the USSR fielded a higher diversity of naval nuclear reactor types and their electrical generation infrastructure also reflected a higher diversity of reacor types and applications,...

The Russians also seem to have been consistent (and ergo) behind the American curve for quality and depth of protection for both naval and civilian power reactor design and operation,...

I sense that at times we lionize Rickover beyond what he actually did with profound insight and clarity of purpose, into facets of endeavour Rickover really did not give more than  cursory thought to,...

And, like lots of folks, as he got older he tended to blurt out quips and observations based on decades of reflection but lacking the context for full understanding of those ruminations,...

All very nice but he was not the longest serving military officer because the Navy loved him, he was a frequant expert witness before congress on nuclear safety in general. Remember his drinking primary coolant to prove how clean and safe nuclear power was. He became a critic of the commercial industry as it evolved away from his philosophies of construction and operation. He did build the first one and as such earned the title of Father of nuclear power no matter how many other people were working on it. His terse abrasive personality earned him many naysayers and detractors clearly that is true here as well.

 

[Chimera]

IF, he had such sweeping influence on commercial reactors most of the US builds would have been standardized PWRs as opposed to the polyglot collection of "no two identical" nuke power stations we currently operate,...

Rickover fostered experimentation.  He fought against the Navy's attempts to standardize on one design of vessel and one type of core.  Shippingport may have been his baby from the beginning (Code 08) but he also wanted to pursue breeders and converters.  Rickover was definitely not a "one size fits all" sort of person.

[GLW]

Rickover fostered experimentation.  He fought against the Navy's attempts to standardize on one design of vessel and one type of core.  Shippingport may have been his baby from the beginning (Code 08) but he also wanted to pursue breeders and converters.  Rickover was definitely not a "one size fits all" sort of person.

All this based on?!?!?!?

The Narwhal?

The Lipscomb?

The Tullibee?

The one offs are part of any and all programs for ship evolution,....

It's the major, standardized classes which allow domination,...

The S5W was in dozens and dozens of boats across a multitude of classes,...

S6G? S8G?,...

Similar story,...

That would be standardization, and it would be a good thing, and I'm just extracting from the literature here, but the evidence bears out that Rickover was good with standardization,...

If Rickover "lost" the fight with Big Navy to standardize on the S5W,....it was good he did,.... and evidence to the contention he was more of a personality with politicians in his pocket than a visionary with a mission to keep the USN submarine force the dominant submarine force on the world stage,...

for the record, I suspect the later,...

All very nice but he was not the longest serving military officer because the Navy loved him, ....

true, he was the longest serving because he was stubborn, self actualized, and the keeper of a full stable of political allies outside the Navy hierarchy,...

....Remember his drinking primary coolant to prove how clean and safe nuclear power was....

yep, heard that story, lemme see,...

primary coolant, with some detectable level of fission products from NNPP sources, carried around uncontrolled in public spaces, consumed for show and tell, and then excreted to the general public without a discharge permit or a monitored release program?!?!?!

and this is the guy who represents nuclear safety?!?!?!,....okee dokee then,....

what?!?!?!?! are you gonna tell me we are so much smarter, principled, safer and knowlegable today?!?!?!

okay, I'll give you that, again, more evidence to the notion Rickover was a personality with a self promoted vehicle for self agrandizement as opposed to a principled, safety first, technocrat of unparalleled achievement,...

....He became a critic of the commercial industry as it evolved away from his philosophies of construction and operation.....

He was a goddam Navy Admiral, not a commercial power businessman,...

Not a single US Navy nuclear power plant is a commercially viable business asset either in capital costs, operating costs, or economy of scale,...

It's easy to criticize when you don't have to hit those numbers,...

Better that Rickover built and manned superb power units for superb warships than sell white elephant power stations to unsuspecting utilities and rate payers,...

...He did build the first one and as such earned the title of Father of nuclear power no matter how many other people were working on it....

Fermi, Zinn, maybe a few others can claim "father of nuclear power", they were before Rickover's appointment to the arena,...

....His terse abrasive personality earned him many naysayers and detractors clearly that is true here as well....

You're interjecting snippy, psychophant ripostes into this discussion,...

Rickover was pretty awesome,...

He was particularly effective at what he did best,...

Successfully managing commercial nuclear power plants was not what Rickover did best,...

To interject Rickover into that arena as an "If only" panacea is an unsubstantiated pipedream,...

Give Rickover all the credit due for what he did accomplish,...

But to speculate beyond that is just speculation,...

And not very well founded speculation at that,...

I would concede and endorse he is the "Father of the US Nuclear Navy Power Program" ( Rickover gave that credit to Sullivan),...

Beyond that Rickover has a recorded dialogue of ruminations and observations,...

but no applied expertise,...

[Marlin]

true, he was the longest serving because he was stubborn, self actualized, and the keeper of a full stable of political allies outside the Navy hierarchy,...

okay, I'll give you that, again, more evidence to the notion Rickover was a personality with a self promoted vehicle for self agrandizement as opposed to a principled, safety first, technocrat of unparalleled achievement,...

He was a goddam Navy Admiral, not a commercial power businessman,...

Aren't these statements contradictory???

yep, heard that story, lemme see,...

primary coolant, with some detectable level of fission products from NNPP sources, carried around uncontrolled in public spaces, consumed for show and tell, and then excreted to the general public without a discharge permit or a monitored release program?!?!?!

and this is the guy who represents nuclear safety?!?!?!,....okee dokee then,....

I can remember taking a number of samples that were <MDA for activated solids, FF, or gaseous activity how often have you seen that in unprocessed commercial primary coolant???  Score one for Rickovers designs.

 

Not a single US Navy nuclear power plant is a commercially viable business asset either in capital costs, operating costs, or economy of scale,...

It's easy to criticize when you don't have to hit those numbers,...

Shippingport ring a bell???

You're interjecting snippy, psychophant ripostes into this discussion,...

Rickover was pretty awesome,...

He was particularly effective at what he did best,...

Successfully managing commercial nuclear power plants was not what Rickover did best,...

To interject Rickover into that arena as an "If only" panacea is an unsubstantiated pipedream,...

Give Rickover all the credit due for what he did accomplish,...

But to speculate beyond that is just speculation,...

And not very well founded speculation at that,...

I would concede and endorse he is the "Father of the US Nuclear Navy Power Program" ( Rickover gave that credit to Sullivan),...

Beyond that Rickover has a recorded dialogue of ruminations and observations,...

but no applied expertise,...

He was the project manager for the first nuclear powered ship and the first commercially operated nuclear power plant I don't think you have to go much beyond that to call him the father of nuclear power.


"You're interjecting snippy, psychophant sycophant ripostes into this discussion,..."

[GLW]

Aren't these statements contradictory???

when line itemed out of context,...yes they are,...

I can remember taking a number of samples that were <MDA for activated solids, FF, or gaseous activity how often have you seen that in unprocessed commercial primary coolant???  Score one for Rickovers designs.

That would be DI water,...score one for faux theatrics,...

and I doubt many if any of those samples were from upstream of the primary demin on any of the early boats, the NNPP was rife with fuel cladding issues too,...

and just what was MDA in your day?!?!?!?

not to mention your parameters were dumbed down by NAVSEA 08 and there was detectable nuclear stuff there which you simply did not analyze for,......but you already knew that,...

Shippingport ring a bell???

He was the project manager for the first nuclear powered ship and the first commercially operated nuclear power plant I don't think you have to go much beyond that to call him the father of nuclear power.

He was the project manager for a project which did not have to turn a profit, which was not built as a commercial enterprise, was indeed built as an ongoing experimental platform which would also test putting electrons on the grid as opposed to wasting horsepower in a water brake or steam dump;

This is from 1957, when the facts only cost 5 cents,...

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/1218.html

...The Shippingport plant cost $72,500,000, including the first loading of atomic fuel. With research and development expenses, the cost rises to about $120,000,000.

Subsidized by Government

Most of the expense was met by the Federal Government. Duquesne Light supplied $5,000,000 toward the cost of the reactor and furnished the site and generating equipment at an estimated cost of $15,000,000. Westinghouse contributed its profit, which would have amounted to about $500,000.

Duquesne Light will operate the plant for the Government and buy the electricity at a conventional power cost of about eight mills per kilowatt-hour. The actual cost of the atomic power is expected to run from 55 to 60 mills....

Commercial business project managers are expected to meet schedule and budget,...

Successful generals and admirals,....not so much,....

Rickover's commercial construction budget was 13% of what was spent, the other 87% was from the bottomless pockets of Joe Taxpayer,...

also to mention, you repeatedly ignore similar British and USSR power stations with missions contemporary to the Shippingport mission,....

power stations which predate Shippingport in the endeavour to push electrons along the grid,....

"You're interjecting snippy, psychophant sycophant ripostes into this discussion,..."

psychophant is a word,...urban dictionary,....entry 5,....

 

look the bottom line is you are enamored of Rickover and all things Rickover,...

the nuke world would have been so much better if Obama Rickover could have simply had unfettered authority to mold all things nuclear,....

I don't see it that way,....

Rickover was good, brilliant and the results for the NNPP of his day bear that out,...

And I enjoyed working as an enlisted under his people management paradigm,...

I'm just not going to give him gold standard creds for things he did not do and frankly did not need to do, he did enough for ten men, maybe more, that should be enough,...

I now release you from this circular but and rebut so you can happily indulge your man crush with the scrawny old bastid sans further redress by myself,.....

[Marlin]

when line itemed out of context,...yes they are,...

When your entire reply is a disconnected set of line entries it is hard to avoid.

That would be DI water,...score one for faux theatrics,...

and I doubt many if any of those samples were from upstream of the primary demin on any of the early boats, the NNPP was rife with fuel cladding issues too,...

Samples straight out of a primary sample sink (637 class boat) thank you. Very poor assumption.  

also to mention, you repeatedly ignore similar British and USSR power stations with missions contemporary to the Shippingport mission,....

power stations which predate Shippingport in the endeavour to push electrons along the grid,....

Clearly I am not the only one to think so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shippingport_Atomic_Power_Station

The Shippingport Atomic Power Station was the world’s first full-scale atomic electric power plant devoted exclusively to peacetime uses.[notes 1][notes 2][2] It was located near the present-day Beaver Valley Nuclear Generating Station on the Ohio River in Beaver County, Pennsylvania, USA, about 25 miles (40 km) from Pittsburgh.

He was the project manager for a project which did not have to turn a profit, which was not built as a commercial enterprise, was indeed built as an ongoing experimental platform which would also test putting electrons on the grid as opposed to wasting horsepower in a water brake or steam dump;

This is from 1957, when the facts only cost 5 cents,...

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/1218.html

...The Shippingport plant cost $72,500,000, including the first loading of atomic fuel. With research and development expenses, the cost rises to about $120,000,000.

Subsidized by Government

Most of the expense was met by the Federal Government. Duquesne Light supplied $5,000,000 toward the cost of the reactor and furnished the site and generating equipment at an estimated cost of $15,000,000. Westinghouse contributed its profit, which would have amounted to about $500,000.

Duquesne Light will operate the plant for the Government and buy the electricity at a conventional power cost of about eight mills per kilowatt-hour. The actual cost of the atomic power is expected to run from 55 to 60 mills....

Commercial business project managers are expected to meet schedule and budget,...

Successful generals and admirals,....not so much,....

Rickover's commercial construction budget was 13% of what was spent, the other 87% was from the bottomless pockets of Joe Taxpayer,...

Did he build it and did it operate commercially He is the Father of nuclear power !!!

[GLW]

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Did he build and did it operate commercially He is the Father of nuclear power !!!

                   

[Marlin]

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Can't see the second picture but I figure you are running out of fuel for your confligration of a subject that is expressed by the Documentary film.

[Marlin]

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Now I see it, we have moved from confligration to a High School Locker room.