Father of Son Considering Navy Nuke Program

[amlc1010]

Hi:
My son is a senior and top in his class of 260.
He is well rounded, straight A's, All Regional Mid Fielder in Soccer, works 20 hours a week.
He is considering the nuke program.  (Seems like a great opportunity)
I have some questions: 
1)  What are his real chances of getting into the Nuclear Enlisted Commissioning Program.
     This would allow him to finish his college degree before fulfilling his obligation to the Navy.
     I worry that once enlisted, the "Navy Needs" and other circumstances would preclude him
     from getting selected into this program  (He needs to be recommended, and needs to perform).
2)  What are the percentages of "A" school students that actually go the route of NECP.
     1 in 10, 4 in 10,  His recruiter said quote "75% of the people recommended actually go".
     I'm assuming that the hard part is getting recommended.
3)  I worry if he does not get into the NECP he will fulfill his Navy Duty (6 years at least) before
     finishing college. 
4)  Once enlisted, the Navy owns him.  Is the Nuke program worth the risk.  If circumstances cause him
     to not get along with his commanding officer, he doesn't do as well in "A" school as I feel he should, etc and
     he ends up in some job that he is stuck in for 6 years.  College is postponed for 6 years.

I feel the Navy would be a great opportunity:
    Great Training
    Experience
    Discipline
    He will be required to set goals and perform.
    Great Friends.

I just worry that the possibility exists that he may fall in the proverbial hole and not get out.

The fundamental question is "Is the Nuke program worth the risk?" or should he just go to college ?

Sorry I think I posted this same question in another area. I'm trying it again here.

[shayne]

Well if you haven't browsed all the topics in this forum that is the best start.  As far as the opportunities to get a commission in the Navy, the Nuclear Program does place many enlisted into programs.  I'm not sure of the percentages of nuclear students that make it to the NECP program, but there are other programs that he should not overlook.

[s_Phoenix]

Tell him to go to college and get a degree.  He will be better off. 

This is not the norm that you will here, but take it for what its worth from someone on the inside.  It can realy suck.  The odds of getting pickup for what was NECP " Nuclear Enlisted Commissioning Program"  now Seaman to Admiral "STA"  are realy wrong.   STA is a good deal you go to college for 3 years on the navy's dime and they pay you base pay plus food and housing.  All he has to do is get his degree in 36 mouths,  theres no going out to sea for the summer as in ROTC, just going to school year round. 

If he doesnt get picked up the first year he can apply the next year and so on.  Its best to get picked up early as it will not extend his time in by as much.

I applied my first 2 years and didnt get pickup and now i'm short timing till i get out.  And I'm better for it.  Navy nuc's are a weird bunch most of use did or could have gone to college on our own but didnt.  If he has chance to go on his own help. 

[taterhead]

Has your son considered applying for Annapolis or an ROTC scholarship?

If being an officer is his goal, then from where he is now, that would seem to me to be the more sensible route.

Enlisting with the sole intent of picking up an officer program is setting himself up for failure.  Once he enlists, the competition for spots gets much stiffer. 

Taylor (MMC)

[amlc1010]

Thanks for the responses.  I have read most of the postings concerning Navy Nuke program.
It sounds like once you enlist, it is extremely hard to get on the officer track.

He has applied to NROTC, but he didn't start considering the Navy until last Christmas.
So the academy is not an option (I believe we are too late.  He would need recommendations)

The Navy Nuke program is appealing for a number of reasons.
As a Nuke you would serve (most likely) on a carrier.  These are relatively safe.  The subs are also but
you must volunteer. 

The nuke program would give him a direction and experience right out of High School.  His career
starts and time is not wasted.  He gets great training in a very challenging field.  I shutter when I
think about the time I wasted during college and after college trying to build a career.  It took me
many years to get where I wanted to be in the corporate world after college.

After his required years in the Navy he has options.  Hopefully by this time he is an officer.
He could choose to make the navy a career, or go into the private sector.

From what I can tell from this board, there would be a good job waiting for him in the private sector.

As a nuke officer would he always be stationed on a Nuke vessel.

Is this making sense or am I just a stupid naive father.

[taterhead]

There are MANY advantages to joining the Navy, either as an officer or an enlisted guy, as a nuke.

Maybe he will enlist and like the Navy.  Maybe he decides to stay.  Maybe he never picks up an officer program. 

There is much honor in either path, with direction and discipline to boot.  It sounds to me that if he is smart enough to be first in his class, he has some discipline down.  He should have scholarships.  NRTOC offers scholarships that start after his sophomore year of college.

I am a senior enlisted man.  I came into the Navy intending to do 6 years and get out.  However, I found that the Navy can be a rewarding experience.  I can retire at 40.  I earned my B.A. on shore duty.  I start Masters classes soon.  Enlisting is not an educational dead end.  It is increasingly becoming more important for advancement to take some college classes.

You don't sound crazy.  You sound like every other Dad or Mom who comes to the board (and like my mom sounded, for that matter).  Concern is natural.  Help him get the facts, let him make the choice.

Taylor (MMC)

[CharlieRock]

Like everyone else has said if his primary goal is to get a commission, don't enlist.  It sounds like he is competitive for either USNA or NROTC (though I don't know the full details).  IF you can afford it, he can start college and still apply for a USNA or NROTC spot.  In fact you can join NROTC on a non-scholarship basis once you start at a university.  He can then compete for a scholarship spot.  If you enlist recognize that's what you are doing - no joining some pre-commissioning program. 

As to what nuke officers do, all nuke officers do both sea and shore tours.  For surface nuke officers (carrier guys) our tours are split between non-nuke (cruisers, destroyers, amphibs, etc.) and nuke (carrier) sea tours. In my 6 commissioned years, I did one tour on a cruiser, went through the nuke power pipeline, then onto a carrier.  I will say that I liked my cruiser tour much better.  It was more 'dangerous' (small boat ops with a brand-new coxswain, boarding parties in the Gulf, etc.) but, as the young men recently killed on the San Francisco and Ronald Reagan exemplify, all work in the military has some danger.

As a by the way, I started enlisted (SS) then got a commission.  The folks along the way that gave me the most rouble (as LPO and DivO) were those knuckle heads who thought the Navy 'owed' them something they were owed- like a commission.

[VTche04]

Have you looked into the NUPOC program?  I am currently in the NUPOC program and from skimming the thread, I think it's exactly what you are looking for.  If your son goes to college majoring in engineering, math, chemistry, or physics, he could apply for NUPOC (Nuclear Propulsion Officer Candidate) halfway through his sophmore year.  He would go on a VIP trip to King's Bay, GA to tour a sub and a carrier.  If profesisionally reccommended, eventually he would go to DC to interview with NR Engineers and Director, Naval Nuclear Propulsion.  ADM Bowman was the Director when I interviewed, but ADM Donald is the new Director.  If he gets in, it is really a great deal.  You get a $10,000 ascension bonus and starts drawing pay and leave as an E-6.  If he then recruits someone who gets into the program, he would become an E-7. 

There are four routes you can go in NUPOC: Sub/Surface, Instructor, and Engineer.  Sub candidates go to OCS (12 weeks) after they graduate to get commissioned, then to Nuclear Power School in Charleston, SC for 6 months, then to Nuclear Prototype in either Charleston or Ballston Spa, NY for 6 months.  Finally, 13 weeks in Groton, CT for Sub School, then to the fleet.  Surface candidates go from OCS to a conventional ship for ~21 months, then Nuc Power School/Prototype, SWO school, then a Carrier. 

I am going Sub so I am pretty familiar with the Sub/Surface routes.  For Instructor and Engineer, they go to OIS (5 or 6 weeks), then Nuc School.  I don't know whether they go to Prototype, but I know they then go to either teach at Nuc School or work in DC at the office of the Director.

If your son is really interested, it is a great opportunity.  Feel free to email me (thgardn1@vt.edu) if you would like or you could just contact a local recruiter who could give you plenty of information. 

[DipNuke]

I am a former enlisted navy nuke (USS Dallas-1980-86) and father of a high school junior.  My son is also a very good student so I have considered similar thoughts about his entry into Navy Nuke program but this is my current viewpoint. 

If your son is a very good student why risk a potentionl opportunity for an officer program when he could seek it directly?  You see I was a misdirected high school student C-B average and joined the navy nuke program since I had little motivation for college. That said the Navy sounded exciting and in fact turned me around and I did very well.  I my 5 year of service was offered an opportunity to then go to Annapolis but that was very rare in those days and I would never bank on something like this unless offered in writing by a recruiter which I doubt would be possible.  I turned that down having enough of submarine life and wanting to start a family in a more 'stable' living environment.  Jobs were plentiful so I picked up a contract assignment with PSEG for one year, later to have a lengthy career at a DOE national laboratory.  I am currently a diplomat for for the State Department (on Assignment for DOE) working with the International Atomic Energy Agency overseas.  As "graduate" of the enlisted program I later (mid thirties) finished my undergraduate degree at a State University of New York College.  They accepted something like 80 credits from the navy and life experiance. I later completed an MBA at another university so I do acknowledge that a degree in this field/ University credentials coupled with experiance are important for career development. All this college work was paid for by DOE.

All that said I look back on a wonderful experiance that has turned out well for me and my family.  However, I am directing my son to use his acedemic talents and go to a university.  He is not so keen on a military academy but NROTC is something he is considering.  Additionally after college graduation one can apply for officer candidate school. I cannot in good conscience advise him to go the enlisted route when I feel he has more potential to obtain a  university education with more certainty if his pursues that immediately after high school. Anyway this is another father's viewpoint for you to reflect on.

Dip NUke

[ODiesel]

I agree with DipNuke. I was in the same situation, C student with a lot of potential but no motivation to do anything but party and play football. I NEEDED some form of discipline to get on the right track. The nuke program was the thing for me. After 3 and a half years I am qualified to do more than I had ever dreamed I would be able to do without a college education. I teach students safe operation of a nuclear power plant. Not bad for a 22 year old with no degree! Now that I am motivated and have a desire to learn and get a degree, I have applied to become an officer through the STA-21 (Seaman to Admiral) program. For me the nuke program changed my life. I would probably be working some dead end job if I hadn't joined.

Now that I have glorified the program, let me be straight. In the case of your son, he would do excellent in the program. However, I would actually recommend against enlisting. Have him go to college and consider the NUPOC(described in a previous post) or NROTC programs. Another option would be to complete college, then go OCS (officer candidate school). The Naval Academy is also a good option. He can then go through the nuke program as a officer. Either of these programs will give your son direction, which it seems he has already, and a good career while providing him with a college degree. The enlisted program is great, but getting a degree and having Navy nuclear power experience is gold. If he does decide to go enlisted and does well in A-School and Power School, he will have a VERY good chance of being selected for STA-21 with his strong high school academic background.

Whatever his choice, as long as you provide him with a strong support base he will be successful in whatever he does. Good luck to you both!!

[amlc1010]

Thanks for the Info.
It's been VERY helpful.

Thanks to all who serve our country !!!

[shayne]

It is my opinion that you could provide the pros and cons to your son about his options, but ultimately it will be his decision.  Giving him as much information about his options will be the best thing to do, then supporting his decision is the best situation I see.

[amlc1010]

Yes !  So very true.
I am just giving him options.
It's his choice !!!

[HydroDave63]

In addition to all of the detailed advice above, please remember that joining the nuclear propulsion program entails spending long periods of time at sea on a ship or submarine , sometimes going into harm's way in an uncertain future. It's part of the package deal.

[mdaniels]

my son  has signed up , dep. He is due to go in feb 06, has chosen the nuc field. I have some questions since it has
been 30 years since I was in. I was not nuc. What is the breakdown of surface vs sub numbers. Also how would
duties and depts. differ between surface and sub.and between ssn and ssbn. When asked about my time in the
Navy I always told him the good times were really good and the bad times were really bad. Luckily overtime
the mind helps you remember the good and fades the bad.

[Marlin]

   On a sub he will get a broader range of responsibilities. This is the nature of having a small crew and still having all of the requirements of operating. Another benifit, in my mind, of being on a sub is the comradery of a 100 man crew as oppossed to 5000 man crew.
   I know very few submariners who where not proud to pin on thier Dolphins when thier ships qualifications where complete. I did not chose to make the Navy as a career but like others who have posted here I see the effect the experience had on me for the better.
   The down side of subs is the the time at sea. In the 70's subs were described as "big and black and don't come back". I don't imagine it is much different now as the number of subs is dwindling and the operational need is increasing..

[mdaniels]

    That is pretty much what I thought.. I was on a carrier and I felt you didn't get to know anyone except
the guys in your div and few other people. You would sit down to eat with someone different every day. Also the carrier had fewer ports it would pull into. I suppose ssbn just go out from its homeport and back to it's homeport
were as a fast attack would surface and hit other ports. I know they used to do blue/gold  crew's with subs. Do
they still do that? Another question is what is the ratio of male/female in the nuc field? The recruiting info says
that at about 5 week of boot camp you would be placed in your pipeline as far as MM EM or ET . How is this done
and how much imput do you have.? Do they still call it a dream sheet?

Thanks to whoever answers back.

[shayne]

I suppose SSBN just go out from its homeport and back to it's homeport were as a fast attack would surface and hit other ports. I know they used to do blue/gold  crew's with subs. Do they still do that? Another question is what is the ratio of male/female in the nuc field? The recruiting info says that at about 5 week of boot camp you would be placed in your pipeline as far as MM EM or ET. How is this done and how much imput do you have? Do they still call it a dream sheet?

The SSBN have the two crews, blue and gold.  They for the most part only pull in and out of the same port.  I'm not sure of the exact ratio, but I seem to remember about 20:1 at prototype.  They will continue to do screening in boot camp.  You will be able to order your preference of the rate that you want, however I'm not sure how much weight that has.  I choose EM, ET, MM and was selected for EM.  Most of the time if you want MM, chances are you will be selected for MM.  It is similiar to doing a dream sheet, however I don't think it is the official form.

[mdaniels]

Thanks for the replys. Mind if i ask a few more questions.

How often do they form new classes at the A school?

What is the usual class size and graduation rate?

I get the impression from some of the other postings I've read that there is no liberty for the
first part of school. Is this true? Can he have a car?

Let me back up a little bit and give a little background info. Our son is in college, finished one year
and has decide to put college on hold and join the Navy. He has gone back for fall semester for a
number of reasons. His sister gets married in Oct and he doesn't want to miss that. One more semester
would add to his EB and he plays football and wants to do it one more season. So he is DEP to go in
Feb 06. I have E-mailed him about this web page but he is in 2 a days and he pretty much , gets up eats
, does football from 7am to 9 pm. then crashes so I don't think he has been online much this last week or so.

It has been so many years since I was in A school  and I didn't have a car , I can't really remember what the deal
was.

Any info about this is appreciated

Thanks

[shayne]

Thanks for the replys. Mind if i ask a few more questions.

How often do they form new classes at the A school?

What is the usual class size and graduation rate?

I get the impression from some of the other postings I've read that there is no liberty for the
first part of school. Is this true? Can he have a car?

It may have changed since 92, but A school classed up everyweek.  There was about 10-20 students in each class.  Power school classed up every 8 weeks and was about 25-30 students per class.

We did have liberty.  Very limited for the first few weeks such as leaving base in civilian clothes.  Usually the better your grades were in school the more liberty you were allowed.  If your grades are down, the program will require that you do more mandatory hours.  We were allowed to have a car, but that may have changed since I went through in bootcamp and A school in Orlando, FL.  Most of us picked them up after bootcamp during our 2 weeks of leave.  I think since bootcamp is in IL and school in SC students are put on a plane to SC to start school straight after bootcamp.

[mdaniels]

Sounds like not much time between bootcamp and A school starts but depending how it hits he may have upto a
2 month after A and his next school. What is the usual grad rate and what are some of the pitfalls to avoid
to stay on course?  Obviously once you make it thru A school you will be that rate  but if you don't complete
A school and get shipped to the fleet are you in the FN or SN branch?

[taterhead]

Whether or not a sailor is reclassified after not making it through A school has a lot to do with that sailor's performance and attitude.  Some sailors are just not cut out for it.  If they are honestly putting in the hours and trying, but fail to make it through, they can be reclassified and sent to another A school of their choosing(for another rate).  If that sailor has dragged ass and failed due to laziness, he may be sent to a school not of his choice, or sent right to the fleet.

As for the common pitfalls, I would say that in my experience:

1)  Problems stemming from the excessive consumption of alcohol.
2)  Falling in with unmotivated sailors as a peer group.
3)  Cheating/Integrity violations.

I am sure I am forgetting something.  Help me out, power schoolers.  What are you seeing?

[shayne]

So after you finish A school you will get some leave (up to 2 weeks).  Also because we were promoted to 3rd class Petty Officer, we did have some extra classes that we had to attend such as Petty Officer indoc and NADSAP (Navy Alcohol Drug Sexual Awareness Program).  Other than those we were assigned misc tasks such as Power School Security, Site Beautification, or Building cleaning until we started Power School.

This may have changed but, EM and MM were guarenteed that Rate upon finishing A school.  ET usually were nuclear specific so if they didn't finish Power School and Prototype the program is good to get them another A school or send them to an ET C school to keep their rate.  EM and MM could go work as those rates outside of the Nuclear Program.

If you don't finish A school, the program is good at working with you and the Navy to get you another A school. 

The best way to get through the program is to keep up with the studies.  The staff at A school, power school and prototype spend many extra hours to help the students through the program.  So if you need the extra help use the staff.  Next, stay out of trouble.