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Offline Rennhack

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NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« on: Apr 03, 2006, 02:06 »
New rules would force outage workers to limit hours to 48 hrs a week!

Fatigue complaints by Barry Quigley of Byron Ops drive NRC proposal
Monday, April 03, 2006
BY GARRY LENTON
Of The Patriot-News
The nuclear plant security officer said he normally works 46 hours a week, but it's often more than that.

Mandatory training, high turnover rates and covering for absent colleagues frequently mean additional 12-hour shifts and fatigue.

"We have people dropping off [to sleep] all the time," said the officer, who spoke on condition that his name and employer not be identified.

His complaint is not unique. Security workers and other nuclear plant employees across the nation have complained to the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission for years about the effect of working sustained long hours.

After nearly eight years of study, the NRC is poised to tighten limits on individual work hours and increase the number of rest days per week.

The goal is to eliminate "sleep debt," said David Desaulniers, a senior human factors analyst for the NRC.

Barry Quigley knows about fatigue. He asked the NRC to change its rules in 1999. He was a senior reactor operator at the Byron Station nuclear plant in Illinois, where he and his co-workers sometimes worked 72 to 84 hours a week.

The proposed rules, which are expected to be finalized in January, are not what Quigley asked for, "but it's better than nothing," he said.

The changes proposed by the agency include requiring a minimum three days off each week for employees who work 12-hour shifts and eliminating shift averaging, which allows plant operators to bypass individual work limits.

NRC rules limit workers to 48 hours a week, but plant owners could allow some to work longer by averaging the hours of all workers on a shift. Three people on a 10-person crew could work 60 hours a week as long as at least three others worked no more than 36 hours.


Industry officials who attended a hearing on the proposed rules last week said they would hamper their ability to manage plants safely. Strict limits on individual hours could break up work teams, resulting in poorer communication and work performance, said James Davis of the industry group Nuclear Energy Institute.

Dr. Charles A. Czeisler, chief of the division of sleep medicine at Brigham and Women's Hospital, a teaching affiliate of Harvard Medical School, said the NRC is correct to demand the three-day rest, especially for 12-hour night workers.

Night workers suffer most from fatigue because their bodies' circadian rhythm, or sleep cycle, is disrupted, Czeisler said. Surveys of night-shift workers at nuclear plants conducted by Harvard found that 50 percent admitted falling asleep at least once a week.

This year, the owners of Three Mile Island acknowledged five cases of worker inattentiveness since March 2004. All occurred during the night shift.

The revelation prompted the state Department of Environmental Protection to start a surprise inspection program for the state's five nuclear plants.

Czeisler said reducing workers' time off "would be a mistake."

David Lochbaum, a nuclear safety expert with The Union of Concerned Scientists, agreed.

"I think the regulations should regulate the industry, not the other way around," he said.

Fatigue is a concern for the NRC and the industry because mistakes by inattentive workers can cost millions of dollars and risk lives.

Industry representatives argue they need flexibility to meet growing production demands. They say that the number of unplanned shutdowns at nuclear plants have declined steadily for nearly two decades.

Mandating three days off a week is a "killer issue," said Davis of the NEI. He asked the agency to reduce it to two days, which would allow plants to keep workers on the job for 60 hours when needed.

But the NRC's Desaulniers chafed at the suggestion.

"It seems as though you only see flexibility as being able to bring somebody in on their day off," he said. "The answer is having enough [workers], not bringing them in on their day off."


« Last Edit: Apr 03, 2006, 02:07 by Rennhack »

Offline Roll Tide

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #1 on: Apr 03, 2006, 03:08 »
(Gasp) They would have to staff properly!

I wonder what it will be when actually implemented.....
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ageoldtech

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #2 on: Apr 03, 2006, 03:48 »
During an outage, imagine how many more workers would be needed if everyone worked 48 hours a week. I don't think there is that many out there, especially RP's.

foreverajr

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #3 on: Apr 03, 2006, 04:04 »
When I was on the road, we barely had enough techs to cover an outage.  When we were short on staffing techs, we worked 13 or 14 hours a night, 7 days a week to make up for it.  I didn't complain because personally, I liked the money.  I understand the point about "inattentiveness" causing accidents, but I also think that if I want to work 84 hours a week, I should be able to.  Not all of us were falling asleep on the job.  How long would an outage take if RP's or craft were only allowed to work 48 hours a week?  I don't think that any facility could get enough people in for an outage working 48's and still keep the usual two to three week outage schedule.  How much money would it cost the facility being shut down for extra weeks?  I've always heard of plants restricting the amount of hours worked, but I've never seen it happen. 

tmp21849

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #4 on: Apr 03, 2006, 05:03 »
With only 8 hours OT a week, I can't imagine being able to make enough money to bother with road work.

Offline Already Gone

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #5 on: Apr 03, 2006, 05:55 »
Remember, this is a news story.  That means that they only have enough facts to be dangerously wrong.
The 48 hour limit only applies to security guards.  They get exceptions for everyone else during outages.  Plus they get to do workgroup averaging.  So, there will still be overtime.  We've discussed this on other threads.
« Last Edit: Apr 03, 2006, 08:30 by BeerCourt »
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Bryanw822

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #6 on: Apr 03, 2006, 05:57 »
Management will not (does not) like this because more people will need to be hired, thus reducing profit.  Our union bretherin will like this because more people will be hired, thus more union workers.  The union locals will ensure proper staffing levels.

Non-union work places (like where I work) will drag their feet on any new hires until forced to by the NRC.

I just wish more operators at the non-union stations would see the benefits of a union organization. In my humble opinion, this issue would never have happened if more stations were organized.

Fermi2

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #7 on: Apr 03, 2006, 08:59 »
Management will not (does not) like this because more people will need to be hired, thus reducing profit.  Our union bretherin will like this because more people will be hired, thus more union workers.  The union locals will ensure proper staffing levels.

Non-union work places (like where I work) will drag their feet on any new hires until forced to by the NRC.

I just wish more operators at the non-union stations would see the benefits of a union organization. In my humble opinion, this issue would never have happened if more stations were organized.


BS. It wouldn't matter. The guy who originally raised this issue on the Ops end was an SRO who is Non Union.

The staffing between Union and Non Union Plants is virtually identical, it's based on your Tech Specs and Appendix R Committments, not your Union Contract.

Mike

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #8 on: Apr 03, 2006, 09:49 »
axecoose me, but aren't rules and rule changes applicable to licensees?  contractors are exempt from licensee rules, aren't they?  sro, ro, licensee rp personnel are all included, contractors aren't.
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Cobranut

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #9 on: Apr 03, 2006, 10:11 »
I don't think that's right.  I'm at a plant now where they are pushing us to stick to the 72 hour rule.

Personally, when on night shift the only thing a day or two off does is screw up my sleep schedule even worse.
I get used to it after about 3 nights and am fine until I have a night off.  Then I have to start over.

I think it'd make more sense to limit workdays to 12 hours but not mess with the consecutive days worked.

axecoose me, but aren't rules and rule changes applicable to licensees?  contractors are exempt from licensee rules, aren't they?  sro, ro, licensee rp personnel are all included, contractors aren't.

Offline Roll Tide

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #10 on: Apr 04, 2006, 07:16 »
axecoose me, but aren't rules and rule changes applicable to licensees?  contractors are exempt from licensee rules, aren't they?  sro, ro, licensee rp personnel are all included, contractors aren't.

Slo,
I have been considered exempt as a contract RP at one plant, and it applied at another. Some plants (such as FP&L) do not consider anyone exempt.
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chuckhallett

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #11 on: Apr 04, 2006, 07:57 »
I would think the proposal is aimed at both Operations and Security personnel, i.e. those who take an active role in operating or protecting the plant.  I doubt it applies to Engineering and possibly maintenance, which would continue to be bound by the 12/24/72 hour rules for Safety-Related work.  If I am incorrect, the uproar, which will be loud enough over Ops/Security, will be tremendous if applied to all groups.  As others have noted, it is unlikely there are enough qualified persons to fill all the voids this would create.  It will be a real stretch for Ops.  Security will not be as big a deal because the training cycle is much shorter.

I personally think it is a good idea.  I was in Operations at Surry in 1977-78 and the reason I moved into maintenance and eventually engineering was because I never knew when I would be going home.  We would consistently be held over for at least one-half a shift to cover for someone or some unexpected evolution.  And I agree with the statement about inattentiveness as well, based on my personal experiences.

Remember that the Nuclear Renaissance is really only one accident away from being a memory.  The safety of the public is paramount, but giving a little for the enhancement of our own job security isn't a bad thing either.

alphadude

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #12 on: Apr 04, 2006, 09:34 »
much ado about nuthing.....this has been tried before and it worked ok. how many hours can those HP's over 50 years in age handle before they fall over...... 

remember there are less than 3000 techs at any one time and that number is on the decline.. so it will look good on paper but in reality it will be somewhat different.   


living by overtime is a risky game,  because one day there will not be any OT and all those debt collectors move in with ya.  After 60 hours your pay rate drops drastically (taxed) and for  a 72 hour week the last day goes entirely to taxes. (Besides at the exempt professional level time and a half dont exist.- and comp time sometimes is the norm)


Offline Roll Tide

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #13 on: Apr 04, 2006, 09:37 »
Well said, 'Dude
What I think is encouraging, is that if you limit workers to 48 hours (more likely the final number will be 60 hours) per week, then you extend the outage season. Either an outage will last longer or worker unavailability will push some outages outside the current seasons.
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Offline Rennhack

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #14 on: Apr 04, 2006, 09:41 »
remember there are less than 3000 techs at any one time and that number is on the decline..

Traveling HP technicians in power plants are < 800 now.

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #15 on: Apr 04, 2006, 12:34 »

After 60 hours your pay rate drops drastically (taxed) and for  a 72 hour week the last day goes entirely to taxes.

This is so untrue.  Your income tax is calculated on your ANNUAL income, even though withheld weekly.  The result of having all those taxes taken out of your check is a big refund.  If you work 7-12's, they will withhold way more money than you owe in taxes because the tables they use assume you earn that much money 52 weeks year.  A road HP is going to have wages of about $50k - $60k per year, but the weekly withholding for an 84 hour week is the same as someone who makes ove $125k.  It might take until spring to get it, but most of that tax is coming back to you.
« Last Edit: Apr 04, 2006, 01:50 by Rennhack »
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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #16 on: Apr 04, 2006, 01:02 »
Management will not (does not) like this because more people will need to be hired, thus reducing profit.  Our union bretherin will like this because more people will be hired, thus more union workers.  The union locals will ensure proper staffing levels.

Its not the profit Management is worried about, its their compensation. In the early 80's the averaged RP road tech made five times what the average smore on the street made. Now its something like twice or maybe three times. The profit hasn't changed, its the upper management compensation has gone out the roof. Just check out the stockholders yearly reports for public held companies. Although the wages might be 6 figures or so, the bonuses are multi-mil. And don't forget the board of directors who in addition to their salary get attendence fees for each meeting they attend. (and they are usaully on boards of several companies at the same time.) Don't forget Enron and now Westar ripoffs.
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Offline Rennhack

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #17 on: Apr 04, 2006, 01:52 »
Its not the profit Management is worried about, its their compensation. In the early 80's the averaged RP road tech made five times what the average smore on the street made. Now its something like twice or maybe three times. The profit hasn't changed, its the upper management compensation has gone out the roof. Just check out the stockholders yearly reports for public held companies. Although the wages might be 6 figures or so, the bonuses are multi-mil. And don't forget the board of directors who in addition to their salary get attendence fees for each meeting they attend. (and they are usaully on boards of several companies at the same time.) Don't forget Enron and now Westar ripoffs.
I know who I want against the wall when the revolution comes.
That post has nothing to do with "NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk", the subject of this post.  Take your enron scandal to poli-Sci.

How many times do we have to ask people to stay on topic?  It's simple, just start your own topic if you want to say something that is not directly related to the main post.
« Last Edit: Apr 04, 2006, 01:54 by Rennhack »

M1Ark

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #18 on: Apr 04, 2006, 05:04 »
Slo,
I have been considered exempt as a contract RP at one plant, and it applied at another. Some plants (such as FP&L) do not consider anyone exempt.

Which FPL plant are you talking about?  At St. Lucie overtime hours applies to:

1. SRO
2. RO
3. NLO
4. Chem
5. RP
6. Security
7. Key Maintenance Personnel (Maintenance Tech and Foreman working on Safety Syatems)

I agree that plants administratively handle this differently.  I've seen other plants apply it to everyone on site.

Fermi2

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #19 on: Apr 04, 2006, 05:18 »
At Fermi it applied top everyone on site. It didn't matter what department you worked for because the theory was on any day someone might be handling something safety related.

I'm not sure how it's applied where I work now.

Heck, here we even have a different interpretation of what 8 hours off not including turnover time means!

Mike

alphadude

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #20 on: Apr 05, 2006, 09:35 »
Tide and I are on the same page...bring it on!!

good to see there are some still young enuff to work the burn out schedule and dirvorce issues.  (cannon fodder)

The number of techs i stated is from studies conducted a few years back and based on all that are available for work at any one time.  This number was derived from tech school, utilities, nrrpt etc.. not just a roster of powerplant techs. That number was reviewed about 2 years ago and was around 2500 or so techs available at anyone time.  This is half of what it was in 1988 (5200).

As far as the tax goes, that refund only comes back if you dont work the full year. (feast or famine) For those of us in the $100 k (40 hrs a week) range its a giveaway to the IRS.. (see Alt Min. Tax) So for us, working over 60s, its a tax burden.

Beer court you didnt read what I said.. it goes to taxes.. so its not untrue..  the amount of refund you get is based upon deductions, allowances and income.

« Last Edit: Apr 05, 2006, 09:44 by alphadude »

Offline Roll Tide

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #21 on: Apr 05, 2006, 10:34 »
So which positions should be exempt? The laborers supporting the maintenance or RPs? I guess they shouldn't be exempt because they are held to the same zero-tolerance for mistakes rules (such as violating postings).

Maybe the cafeteria workers? Of course, if they mishandle the food and the operators get sick.....

OK, just the clerical staff. We don't really expect to have error-free payroll processing anyway.
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Offline Mike_Koehler

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #22 on: Apr 05, 2006, 11:49 »
I know that I got off the road and started working for doh!!!!!, I mean dough, no that's not it either, DOE at the end of the 90's due to outage length, wages and all the other factors that have been beaten to death. The translation of the above grammatical nightmare is that I got older and tireder (is that a word?) and really don't want to work a ton of hours anymore. I would if I had to to feed the family, but at DOE I don't need to. If they drop hours to 48 for road techs they would need pay of at least 40-45/hr + per diem to equal what is possible with 72's at the current rates + per diem. I don't see the utilities or the contract companies jumping to raise our pay until they need to for staffing. A bunch of old road techs here were discussing this as a few of them had plans to retire and work 1-2 outages a year to supplement their retirement checks.They still might do this, but it has bumped the retirement age back some for those guys. Just my nickels worth......

Mike
 
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Offline HydroDave63

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #23 on: Apr 05, 2006, 05:12 »
So which positions should be exempt? The laborers supporting the maintenance or RPs? I guess they shouldn't be exempt because they are held to the same zero-tolerance for mistakes rules (such as violating postings).



I'd imagine the proposed restrictions would apply to positions mentioned in the license and SAR/FSAR.

For those that think this is a bad thing for money concern, consider that when you have to hire the next new operator, etc from the pool of applicants, the incremental cost is basically what you paid for the last one. See SONGS and Diablo for how pay doesnt match cost of local living. However, if all plants in the country need to raise license mandated staff positions by 25% in numbers simultaneously , the incremental cost of what they would have to pay increases substantially.

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Re: NRC limits workers to 48 hrs/wk
« Reply #24 on: Apr 05, 2006, 09:05 »
Quote from: Mike_Koehler link=topic=7716.msg41194#msg41194
If they drop hours to 48 for road techs they would need pay of at least 40-45/hr + per diem to equal what is possible with 72's at the current rates + per diem.

yeah, write!  iffen their gonna hold hpteks to 48/wk, there gonna bring in a buncha remote monitorings, digi-instrumentation, 'n rotate the crews thru on 48hr basis.  itz cheeper to buy instrumentation than rent techs.  'n yinz can rent instrumentation also.  sew get used to 48 hr, 25 day outages.  maybe, iffen utilities are reely inot benevolence, they may start to stagger the outages so's ya can work 6 or 7 per season. 
« Last Edit: Apr 06, 2006, 07:14 by Roll Tide »
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