ACAD 00-003

[NucEng for Hire]

I’ve previously only considered entering the commercial nuclear power industry as an engineer, but have recently begun looking at hiring in as an NLO (a career goal of mine is SRO licensure). I’ve been looking over ACAD 00-003 “Guidelines for Initial Training and Qualification Of Licensed Operators”, but there are a couple aspects that are still unclear to me.

Question 1

For the direct SRO route for degreed plant staff engineers (Figure 2-3), 2 years credit is given for the degree toward the 3 year experience requirement, and thus 1 year of plant experience (6 months onsite) is necessary before eligibility is met.

For the direct SRO route for degreed nonlicensed operators (Figure 2-4), there is also a 3 year experience requirement, but it makes no mention of the 2 year credit for the degree. Is then the path to SRO longer for someone coming in as a degreed NLO versus one coming in as a plant engineer, or do degreed NLOs in fact get that 2 year credit as well?

Question 2

Also, it notes NLO experience credit accruing once one is a “qualified NLO”. Approximately how long after hire is an NLO considered qualified, or does that qualified experience in fact begin accruing immediately upon start?

[Nuclear NASCAR]

In regards to Question 1- The truth is that without any prior nuclear experience an engineer will probably have at least 3 years onsite before they are considered for an SRO position anyway.  This would make the differences you stated a moot point.

Question 2- A NLO usually takes 18 to 24 months to become fully qualified on all their watch stations.  At Callaway AEO's (Asst. Equip. Operators) are in training for about 3 months and then go into qualifying for the 1st watch station.  The first session includes the initial systems training.  Then at regular intervals they repeat this until fully qualified. 

[NucEng for Hire]

Thanks for the knowledge. I had an Ameren interview itinerary in hand for a Shift Engineer I position at Callaway last month, but they cancelled the posting. Was looking forward to my first trip to MO.

So to be clear:

In regards to Question 1- The truth is that without any prior nuclear experience an engineer will probably have at least 3 years onsite before they are considered for an SRO position anyway.  This would make the differences you stated a moot point. 

Degreed NLOs seeking direct SRO training do NOT get the 2 year, 1:1 degree credit, and

Question 2- A NLO usually takes 18 to 24 months to become fully qualified on all their watch stations.  At Callaway AEO's (Asst. Equip. Operators) are in training for about 3 months and then go into qualifying for the 1st watch station.  The first session includes the initial systems training.  Then at regular intervals they repeat this until fully qualified. 

The soonest a person hiring in as an NLO might see the opportunity for direct SRO training is about 5 years, or ~24 months to qualification and then an additional 3 years to accrue the experience requirement.

[Fermi2]

No, your training time counts towards the 3 years. Technically a degreed NLO can become an Instant whenever he/she would like. It's no different than hiring an Engineer out of college. Degreed NLOs get whatever credit the utility wants to give them.

However the main point is any training time also counts as experience.

The average time for an NLO to be fully qualified is just under 14 months. Many make it in under a year. I did it in 9 months, and that was counting the 6 months I spent in the classroom.

Mike

[Roll Tide]

If I may translate for Mike,
an "Instant" is a candidate for NRC licensing going up for an SRO license that has not held an RO license previously.

If I may disagree with Mike,
training time CAN count as experience, but the training manager would have to justify it to the NRC (and may choose not to, as is often the case)

Finally, NLO training length depends partly on the individual, but mostly on the company training program; 18 months for TVA; 13 months for FP&L

[Fermi2]

If I may translate for Mike,
an "Instant" is a candidate for NRC licensing going up for an SRO license that has not held an RO license previously.

If I may disagree with Mike,
training time CAN count as experience, but the training manager would have to justify it to the NRC (and may choose not to, as is often the case)

Finally, NLO training length depends partly on the individual, but mostly on the company training program; 18 months for TVA; 13 months for FP&L

In the second paragraph, no the training manager doesn't have to justify anything. I'm familiar with this because I had to learn all this BS in order to be a CRC Chairman at Fermi, then later a Program Committee Vice Chairman. We even had a qual card for it. The individual plant decides what responsible experience is. We even defined it in our Licensed Operator Program Description, a document I Co Authored.

The Training manager only has to write a waiver if it is decided to either waive the 3 years OR if you decide to accept something non traditional as responsible nuclear experience.


Roll Tide is correct in that whatever the utility locksteps you at defines how long it takes to qualify as an NLO. If I recall correctly TVAN has a 72 week classroom period so it'd be impossible to complete it in a year.

ONE more night to go!!!! WOO HOO!!!

Mike

[M1Ark]

NucEngForHire,

an element of truth resides in all of the postings.   Keep in mind that all plants interpret ACAD 00-003 a little differently but that document is what's common to all.  If you read all of the postings you will find the answer to your questions.

At my plant we just hired a whole class of engineers right out of college with no job experience whatsoever as RO's.  Plan is to qualify them NLO's then RO.  They're college degree will account for 2 of the three years and their remaining 1 year clock will start as soon as they qualify the first NLO watchstation.  Once fully qualified NLO they get put right into RO license class once all of the above requirements met.  This is a special program due to the inability to staff the RO ranks.

I don't think we posted for the RO job.  I believe these engineers where recruited from local area college job fairs.  The idea is that they are local and will NOT move.  HR at my company has concerns with movement within the industry and is trying to hire people with local roots.

[Roll Tide]

M1,
I must ask: is this a union plant?

[M1Ark]

M1,
I must ask: is this a union plant?

Yes.

The new bargaining unit agreement had provisions for this.  20% of each license class has to be a union member and any union members excluded gets RO pay immediately.  This applies to SRO instants as well (20% of the SRO class must be upgrades).

[Roll Tide]

Sounds like a reasonable agreement. It also sounds like the new hires should be successful; not all programs are this wise. Before anyone accepts such a position, it would be good to ask the pass rate for the previous people in similar circumstances...

[Fermi2]

Are SROs at your plant Union?

Why do 20% of the SROs have to be upgrades? (Upgrades are usually the best SROs to begin with just wondering where that number came from!)

At Fermi for every Instant they picked an Upgrade. It wasn't written down anywhere it was just the way it was. The Upgrades really help the instants out.

Mike

[Roll Tide]

Are SROs at your plant Union?

If he is at St. Lucie (FP&L), they have Nuclear Watch Engineers (NWE) that are bargaining SROs; SRO can either be bargaining or non (if not selected as NWE, you can be on the board as RO drawing SRO pay)

[NucEng for Hire]

Thanks to all posters for providing interpretation to these documents. You may (or may not) take pride in knowing that your information is far more helpful than that provided by university NE professors...

[Roll Tide]

You may (or may not) take pride in knowing that your information is far more helpful than that provided by university NE professors...

I am very pleased that we have been helpful. Unlike the professors, we have worked in the industry (some for much more than the two decades that I have). Many of us have either faced these questions or have assisted our buddies going through the process.

[Fermi2]

Do the NWEs ever stand watch in the Control Room?

Is there a pay difference?

The position that FPL always seems to have out on the net, is that the Control Room position?

[M1Ark]

Do the NWEs ever stand watch in the Control Room?

Is there a pay difference?

The position that FPL always seems to have out on the net, is that the Control Room position?

1. For license maintenance only for those who "choose" to be active.

2. YES

3. yes

[Roll Tide]

Mike,
When I was down there Turkey Point kept all the NWE's with an active license. If you had a dual unit casualty, the NWE had to be the BOP on the other unit (normal staffing required only 3 ROs for 2 units)

[Fermi2]

Wow this is all quite strange! It just goes to show how some each utility has it's own idiosyncrasies.

Mike

[M1Ark]

Mike,
When I was down there Turkey Point kept all the NWE's with an active license. If you had a dual unit casualty, the NWE had to be the BOP on the other unit (normal staffing required only 3 ROs for 2 units)

Must be a Turkey Point thing.  Not true at St. Lucie.

[Roll Tide]

Must be a Turkey Point thing.  Not true at St. Lucie.

Yeah, you can do such things with a single control room...

[M1Ark]

This last question is best answered by Roll Tide since he has FPL and TVA experience.

[Roll Tide]

This last question is best answered by Roll Tide

Another red letter day: people want me to answer questions! (They usually want me to shut up!) 

Short answer: TVA has bargaining RO and AUO, TVA has no bargaining SRO positions. 

Bargaining means Trades & Labor agreement applies; AKA union eligible or union positions. These guys earn overtime over 40 hours.

Nonbargaining is management / non-union. It is a matter of site (and department) policy what compensation is given over 40 hours: it could be comp time or straight time or donated time.


The NWE is the highest paid bargaining position within FP&L.

[Fermi2]

What a minute now you're a valuable source of information and don't you ever forget that. 

Thanks for the input about the TVA positions.  You almost make it sound like it would be better to be a RO due to overtime. 

Now back to work on getting hired.

Jason

Not necessarily. They get OT but their base compensation is lower. SROs get a shift differential bonus which for the most part makes up for OT. They also get a higher percentage on the annual profit sharing bonus and they get outage bonus money too. For the most part they work less overtime and have more liberal work rules. I guess it all depends on what you look for in compensation. When I was an RO at Fermi there were times when I'd be working straight time and an NLO would be working OT for double time. Technically he was making more for that one isolated time. When they'd remind me of that I'd tell them sure you're right, then send them into the Drywell (BWR 4 Containment, NOT a nice place), then I'd go sit in the air conditioned work control center. Yes for a short period of time they made more money, but guess who had the better working environment? On the average, especially after I became more senior their OT worked out to maybe 15 cents an hour more than I was making. After I got my SRO License it was no comparison, especially the year I got three pay raises in 4 months!

Mike

[Roll Tide]

A man I respected at Turkey Point explained it to me this way: "The best job is the most compensation for the number of hours you wanted to work anyway." If I have mangled the quote, at least the idea carries forward. Last I heard he was Site VP; when I got to Turkey Point he was "only" a Shift Manager not currently assigned to a shift.

Mike will do well with his similar attitude, and it sounds like you need to decide what your attitude towards your job will be. If you are willing to make work a very high priority in your life, then management is the way to go. Of course, everyone at a nuclear plant (especially working a rotating shift) has a strong commitment to their job or else they aren't successful. But I see the management types with an even higher level of commitment.

[Fermi2]

I never had a problem being an NLO, in fact I loved the job. The pay was good and doing work in the actual plant was fun. Remaining an NLO was not a real option for me because I have two permanently broken elbows and arthritic knees so I knew I wasn't going to be able to do it for very long. In fact one of the reasons I chose Fermi (besides the pay, they started NLOs out at a darn good rate for 1990) was the RO position wasn't union so all things being equal I had a chance of getting promoted sooner. I viewed RO as being a stepping stone for SRO. At Fermi they both got paid straighttime for OT so there didn't seem a point to remaining an SRO, plus my career goal was to be an SRO, particularly a Unit Supervisor. I guess I went a ways past that. Also, mentally I'm not programmed to remain at a certain position if I know the next one or two or three positions above that are obtainable.

I honestly enjoy this job, I have had offers to do different jobs for more money but this one is the one that I get a kick out of doing. Plus the people are fantastic.

Sorry it took so long to answer, I really twisted the heck out of my ankle last Saturday so I've been keeping it on heat.

Mike

[M1Ark]

Sorry it took so long to answer, I really twisted the heck out of my ankle last Saturday so I've been keeping it on heat.

Hitting the blocking sleds again, Mike?

[Fermi2]

Hitting the blocking sleds again, Mike?

LOL!! NO!!!! And for your info there are NFL Linemen who would have broken their back on that sled!!!! It's a fact!

[Roll Tide]

LOL!! NO!!!! And for your info there are NFL Linemen who would have broken their back on that sled!!!! It's a fact!

Did you mean Line Judges? Linemen are athletes......


Anyway, have we finally closed the book on the topic of qualifications?

[Fermi2]

I believe we have. It depends on if there are any more questions!

By the way not line judges, LINEMEN! BY the way the incident was not nearly as amusing as my ex Fermi compadres think!

Mike

[NucEng for Hire]

Anyway, have we finally closed the book on the topic of qualifications?

It's been helpful. Perhaps my problems stemmed from taking documents such as ACAD 00-003, ANSI-ANS/3.1, and Reg Guide 1.8 as gospel rather than guidelines. Seems like every time I talk with a utility rep or a forum member I get a different perspective on the process. It will be interesting to see if this is as much an issue if the Gen-III+ standard certified designs ever take off.

As an MSNE looking to go SRO, I have to say that the university program recruiters make it seem like retirement attrition and the "nuclear renaissance" will have NE graduates brushing interview offers away like flies. I have no doubt the opportunities are out there, but it serves a graduate student well to continue doing their employment homework even after the last final exam is taken.

Thanks for the help.

[Fermi2]

Well yes when the Gen 3 plants take off it'll still be an issue. Selection criteria and training accredidation are still the same regardless of the type of reactor used.

Virtually everything about training or personnel selection is a guideline, but you'd best have a very solid waiver before deviating from them. INPO and the NRC don't want to get into the business of telling you who to hire and what exact skill set the employee must meet, otherwise if that employee screws up the regulators and overseers are potentially liable. The only place that ever tells you exactly what you have to train on is 10CFR50 (Or is it 55). But it doesn't tell you how you have to do it, except in some limited instances.

It's the same as when they review your application for a plant modification that potentially effects safety. They might approve it but if it goes wrong, or later is proven to increase vulnerability to an accident they'll say "Hey it's YOUR plant, YOU'RE responsible for complying with the regulation." And that's the way it should be.

Mike