San Onofre (SONGS)

[tr]

The SONGS 3 SGs were basically "new out of the box", in that they were in the middle of their first cycle of operation (probably a year or less old).  The SONGS 2 SGs just finished their first cycle of operation (about 2 years old).

Wall thinning can be chemistry related, erosion related, vibration related, etc. pretty much all recent SGs are made of Inconel 690.

[Higgs]

The SONGS 3 SGs were basically "new out of the box", in that they were in the middle of their first cycle of operation (probably a year or less old).  The SONGS 2 SGs just finished their first cycle of operation (about 2 years old).

Wall thinning can be chemistry related, erosion related, vibration related, etc. pretty much all recent SGs are made of Inconel 690.

Gotcha, thanks. I meant that as just installed/first start up..., since he was wondering why this wasn't caught on a hydro.

[OldHP]

Gotcha, thanks. I meant that as just installed/first start up..., since he was wondering why this wasn't caught on a hydro. 

They probably passed hydro with no problems.  Unfortunately, hydrostatic testing does not indicate thinning (sometimes from over rolling in, particularly at the top of, the tube sheet) or other weak spots.  Nor can it detect the wear in operation, again the problem with the D-2/3's.  Until they release the location of the wear, all is spectulation.  Even then, a lot of work will go into pinpointing the exact cause.

[HydroDave63]

Stop crutching and do your research,...

Google steam generator tubes creep aerosol impingement wastage erosion sludge thinning,...

One to add to the list : "inconel 690" hydrogen

http://www.ecampus.com/hydrogen-effects-materials-behavior/bk/9780873395014

[Starkist]

One to add to the list : "inconel 690" hydrogen

http://www.ecampus.com/hydrogen-effects-materials-behavior/bk/9780873395014

NRC.gov needs updating

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/steam-gen.html

[HydroDave63]

page 1230 has an interesting bit of data on Pb and its effects on 690:

http://iweb.tms.org/NM/environdegXII/1229.pdf

[nmaguire]

I see they moved the scheduled startup back to 2/25.  Is that realistic?  Anyone have a guess?

[MeterSwangin]

I see they moved the scheduled startup back to 2/25.  Is that realistic?  Anyone have a guess?

Unit 2 will restart 3/12.  Unit 3 on 3/25 based on early tube plugging estimates.

[HydroDave63]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/15/utilities-operations-sce-songs-idUSL2E8DFMM620120215?feedType=RSS&feedName=utilitiesSector&rpc=43

Interesting how Fort Calhoun's S/G's, also manufactured by MHI, do NOT have accelerated wear...

[MeterSwangin]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/15/utilities-operations-sce-songs-idUSL2E8DFMM620120215?feedType=RSS&feedName=utilitiesSector&rpc=43

Interesting how Fort Calhoun's S/G's, also manufactured by MHI, do NOT have accelerated wear...

Calhouns SGs MUCH smaller.  Seismic design specs not even close.  Apples and Watermelons...........

[Fermi2]

Incorrect, makes no difference. Stop being ignorant.

[matthew.b]

I was going to politely ask how the size would relate to erosion or corrosion.

Broadzilla was a bit more blunt....  but yeah, what he said.

[Fermi2]

Same with Seismic specs.

[matthew.b]

Same with Seismic specs.

You mean that putting thicker metal and/or more supports doesn't make it corrode through faster?

[Fermi2]

LOL Correct! Though usually you don't make something more seismic by thicker supports or metal.

[MeterSwangin]

You mean that putting thicker metal and/or more supports doesn't make it corrode through faster?

Not corrosion,friend. Inconnel 690 is good stuff.   

Wear.  Flow induced vibration and resulting wear.  Design issues according to SG gurus.

Repairs complete on Unit 2, so headed back up soon.   Unit 3 just getting started...took Areva some time to mobilize entire new team.  More extensive plugging planned on Unit 3, then all good to run.  Costs being captured for recovery efforts with Mitsubishi.

[MeterSwangin]

I was going to politely ask how the size would relate to erosion or corrosion.

Broadzilla was a bit more blunt....  but yeah, what he said.

Sigh.  You guys ever cover Areva for a few days?  Ever SEE a SG?  Talk for a few hours while they run probes with the engineers on the headphones and you learn.  Why the sarcasm?  Mean people.

High seismic + very large SG (2 loop 1150 MW CE) = lots more stabilizers, retaining bars, retainers, egg crates to immobilize longer tubes.  Smaller 4 loop SGs in Nebraska get much less steel.

Tube issues not due to corrosion.  Problem is wear at certain very specific points where civil structures are rubbing tubes.  Design issue - engrs talk about being related to very large SGs, lots of retainers, massive flow.  Hard to model perfectly, so something vibrates a little, tubes rub, wear in spots.  Not at all unusual, although disappointing. 

Plug affected tubes.  Pass costs back to Mitsubishi.  Eddy current test again next outage to verify nothing else rubbing.  Biggest headache from the whole experience:  list sarcasm.

[Fermi2]

Sigh.  You guys ever cover Areva for a few days?  Ever SEE a SG?  Talk for a few hours while they run probes with the engineers on the headphones and you learn.  Why the sarcasm?  Mean people.

High seismic + very large SG (2 loop 1150 MW CE) = lots more stabilizers, retaining bars, retainers, egg crates to immobilize longer tubes.  Smaller 4 loop SGs in Nebraska get much less steel.

Tube issues not due to corrosion.  Problem is wear at certain very specific points where civil structures are rubbing tubes.  Design issue - engrs talk about being related to very large SGs, lots of retainers, massive flow.  Hard to model perfectly, so something vibrates a little, tubes rub, wear in spots.  Not at all unusual, although disappointing. 

Plug affected tubes.  Pass costs back to Mitsubishi.  Eddy current test again next outage to verify nothing else rubbing.  Biggest headache from the whole experience:  list sarcasm.

BS

[HydroDave63]

Calhouns SGs MUCH smaller.  Seismic design specs not even close.  Apples and Watermelons...........

I can't really blame him for being in denial though, when all 4 horses pulling the Gravy Train are starting to show blood in the road "apples", and there will be no sympathy or extra recovery from the "watermelons" on the PUC (green on the outside, red to their core), considering the DRA's proposal for funding rejection and destaffing seen here:

http://www.dra.ca.gov/NR/rdonlyres/FB745959-0ED8-4302-9E5A-1182E335EB6F/0/ExDRA8NuclearGenerationCostsPublic.pdf

Probably lots of  work in the D&D of 2021 though!

[Already Gone]

Sigh.  You guys ever cover Areva for a few days?  Ever SEE a SG?  Talk for a few hours while they run probes with the engineers on the headphones and you learn.  Why the sarcasm?  Mean people.

High seismic + very large SG (2 loop 1150 MW CE) = lots more stabilizers, retaining bars, retainers, egg crates to immobilize longer tubes.  Smaller 4 loop SGs in Nebraska get much less steel.

Tube issues not due to corrosion.  Problem is wear at certain very specific points where civil structures are rubbing tubes.  Design issue - engrs talk about being related to very large SGs, lots of retainers, massive flow.  Hard to model perfectly, so something vibrates a little, tubes rub, wear in spots.  Not at all unusual, although disappointing. 

Plug affected tubes.  Pass costs back to Mitsubishi.  Eddy current test again next outage to verify nothing else rubbing.  Biggest headache from the whole experience:  list sarcasm.

Did the old S/G's - which were EXACTLY as large as these - leak right after they were installed?
Have bigger S/G's than these leaked right out of the box?

If you bought as new Ford F450 pickup truck, and it blew a head gasket a month off the dealer's lot, would you accept a BS explanation like this one that you seem to be so willing to accept here?  "Oh, it's a big truck so you can't expect it to last ..."  CRAP.

Again: there are only TWO possible reasons why these things are leaking as they are.
1. There was a flaw in the design/and or manufacture, making them damaged goods from the start.
2. They were operated outside their design parameters.

Nobody really wants to hear the excuses that you are parroting here.  If it is so damned difficult to design and build larger boilers so that they don't leak, then you work harder, think smarter, or leave it to the people who know what the hell they are doing! 

This IS NOT a freakin' pickup truck.  It is a nuclear power plant fercryinoutloud!  You really need to wrap your head around the fact that this $h!t is important!!!  So, you "covered Areva for a few days", that hardly makes you an expert, and I don't think there is a Holiday Inn Express anywhere nearby.  But, you don't need to be an expert, or a genius. 
Even a blockheaded HP tech who thinks that watching some other people do work makes him knowlegeable about what they are doing has to understand that excuses are no substitute for performance, and the public will not long tolerate a nuclear plant that operates on the principle that an apology and an excuse is a sufficient substitute for safe and reliable operation.

[tr]

Did the old S/G's - which were EXACTLY as large as these - leak right after they were installed?

The detailed design of SGs built 30 year ago is significantly different than modern SGs.  The new SONGS SGs are also probably larger than their original SGs (everyone puts in larger ones during a SG replacement to support power uprates).  In the very early days, I know plants plugged lots of tubes early in SG life.  I seem to remember hearing that some plant had to replace their replacement SGs.  Still no excuse for the SONGS SGs to have problems.

Have bigger S/G's than these leaked right out of the box?

With the possible exception of Palo Verde and the newer Korean units, there are no SGs bigger than these.  For issues like flow induced vibration, items associated with SG size (tube length, number of supports, etc.) matter.

If you bought as new Ford F450 pickup truck, and it blew a head gasket a month off the dealer's lot, would you accept a BS explanation like this one that you seem to be so willing to accept here?  "Oh, it's a big truck so you can't expect it to last ..."  CRAP.

I'm sure SONGS has lawyers putting together the lawsuits against MHI as we debate this.

Again: there are only TWO possible reasons why these things are leaking as they are.
1. There was a flaw in the design/and or manufacture, making them damaged goods from the start.
2. They were operated outside their design parameters.

True.  I'm sure as a part of the acceptance tests, the SGs were verified to be operating within their design parameters, so item 1 it is.

[MeterSwangin]

Even a blockheaded HP tech who thinks that watching some other people do work makes him knowlegeable about what they are doing has to understand that excuses are no substitute for performance, and the public will not long tolerate a nuclear plant that operates on the principle that an apology and an excuse is a sufficient substitute for safe and reliable operation.

Have seen no apologies or excuses, sir.  Seeing extensive exams and repairs.  Appears you might consider same.

[Already Gone]

Are you serious?!?!? You haven't given anything BUT excuses for this since it happened.  The lack of apology seems to be caused by a lack of the ability to admit that this ain't freakin' right!
Extensive exams and repairs are a piss-poor substitute for quality.  Frankly, your attitude that stuff just breaks and we'll fix it is unacceptable.  If the whole nuclear industry operated by that philosophy, there wouldn't BE a nuclear industry anymore.

[Rennhack]

Whooa cowboy.  Lets count to ten and chill out, ok?

[HydroDave63]

Feds probe equipment failure at Calif. nuke plant
Associated PressBy MICHAEL R. BLOOD | Associated Press

LOS ANGELES (AP) — A nuclear reactor on the California coast will remain shut down indefinitely while a team of federal inspectors determines why several relatively new tubes became so frail that tests found they could rupture and release radioactive water, a federal official said Thursday.

"This is a significant issue," said Nuclear Regulatory Commission spokeswoman Lara Uselding. "A tube rupture is really the concern. ... That's what we don't want to happen."

Underscoring concern over the test findings, the NRC dispatched a special team to the Unit 3 reactor at the San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station, located about 45 miles north of San Diego. The plant was shut down as a precaution on Jan. 31, after a radioactive water leak in another tube in a massive steam generator. Traces of radiation escaped, but officials say there was no danger to workers or neighbors.

The NRC said Thursday that pressure tests showed three of the metal-alloy generator tubes had become so degraded that they could rupture under some circumstances. Such ruptures can require a plant to shut down, if spewing water reaches 150 gallons a day.

Investigators have been looking into what federal officials call excessive wear found on steam generator tubes in the seaside plant and its twin, Unit 2, which has been off line for maintenance and refueling. In a $670 million overhaul, two huge steam generators, each containing 9,700 tubes, were replaced in Unit 2 in fall 2009 and a year later in Unit 3.

A spokeswoman for the agency that operates the state's wholesale power system, the California Independent System Operator, said the San Diego and Los Angeles areas could see rotating power outages this summer if both reactors remain off-line. The agency is taking steps to prevent those shortages.

"It's all about balancing supply and demand," said ISO spokeswoman Stephanie McCorkle. "You have to have a certain amount of plant (power) generation where the heavily populated areas of California are."

Inside a steam generator, hot, pressurized water flowing through bundles of tubes heats non-radioactive water surrounding them, and the resulting steam is used to turn turbines to make electricity.

According to the NRC, the tubes have an important safety role because they represent one of the primary barriers between the radioactive and non-radioactive sides of the plant. If a tube breaks, there is the potential that radioactivity from the system that pumps water through the reactor could escape into the atmosphere.

"The integrity of steam generator tubes is important because the tubes provide an additional barrier ... to prevent a radioactive steam release," the NRC said in a statement Thursday.

NRC Administrator Elmo E. Collins said in the statement that the agency wants "to make sure we understand the cause of the degraded steam generator tubes and take appropriate actions based on our inspection results."

Uselding said no date has been set to restart Unit 3.

The plant is owned by Southern California Edison, San Diego Gas & Electric and the City of Riverside. Southern California Edison serves nearly 14 million residents with electricity in Central and Southern California.

SCE spokeswoman Jennifer Manfre said the company welcomes the expanded investigation and "we don't put a deadline on safety."

David Lochbaum, director of the nuclear safety project for Union of Concerned Scientists, said the risks from tube leaks are two-fold: When serious, they can drain cooling water from the reactor while elevating the chance radiation could escape.

He said such investigation teams are sent out by the NRC only once or twice a year, highlighting concern within the agency.

While gradual wear in steam generator tubes takes place over time, the rate occurring in some tubes at San Onofre would be expected after many years of use, not in recently installed equipment, he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/feds-probe-equipment-failure-calif-nuke-plant-154052395.html