Rent a tech Union debate

[RAD-GHOST]

Excellent information shawneeman and wlrun3, 

On the other side of the coin, NMC, Entergy and TVA recognize NRRPT as Poo!  Sure they like having techs show up with the credential, and they even like having those little plaques on the wall from the house staff, but it's meaningless at their facilities.  If I am incorrect on my observations, then these utilities need to know that their HP contractor supplier, offers no incentives or compensation for it!  The utilities can dismiss that situation by saying they simply didn't know, or it's not their business, but it's their house and if the candy jar isn't available to their guest, then they are Piss Poor Hosts!  Those utilities must be the missing quarter?  Collage Credits, 28 to 32 credit hours, depending on the degree curriculum, is a huge selling point and a nice reason to at least take a stab at it.  By the way, I strongly promote the organization, but only as a level of self achievement and very rarely advertise the credential.  Yes, I am on the active members list, so I have the right to that opinion, based on my experiences and observations!   

Union, am I For, or Against?  I'm somewhere in the middle, (sound swishy washy)!  JJ brings a lot of knowledge to the forum from his experiences with the IBEW.  Sign the cards, get the numbers and take a list of represented technicians to the utilities/contract companies.  I believe most technicians hesitate do so, due to the past speculative nature of the contractor industry.  If they hear or see my name, I'll never get a job in the future, or limited opportunities!  Probably true in the past, but I believe things are much different today!  Signing the card is a contract agreement!  An agreement that appears to be unavailable to us, which is pretty much how things are run with the contract companies today!  Most, if not all may agree, very distasteful!  Like I said before, Pay-Per-View, or Pay-Before-View!  Walk Outs, Strikes and So On!  From my experience, most of the IBEW contracts are formulated under a No Strike Clause!  A contract violation if the union strikes, while the company is negotiating!  You walk out and the union is going to be on your tail and they do have penalties they can serve against their members!

Actually organizing the technicians industry, is as simply as each technician agreeing to communicate with their fellow technicians!  The primary tool of today’s contract companies is Lack of Communications.  They really don't want us to talk to each other, in any way, shape, or form!  Isolating a techncian and being their buddy, has always been the best method of negotiations.  They certainly don't want us to agree with each other on any topic.  Lets say fifty technicians make the decision to align themselves and draft a negotiation venue to satisfy the membership, (free of charge and not signing a contract), then stick to it!  When the companies call and make their offer, everybody shares the information among the membership!  OMG, that would be scary!  Technicians having the availability to make informed decisions; all the deals, incentives, wages and perks simultaneously distributed between fifty techs!  No more he said, she said, they said, he got, or she got!  The ability to see what the variables are vs. the force feed information!  I've seen the feedback from the some members who run their own agenda and have great opportunities, good for you!  Your probably the model contractor employee, they call, you go!  If it hasn't caught up to you yet, it will!  For those employees, (without any feedback to my question), have you honestly set your own course, or simply the best course, based on what the company offered?           

What kind of influence would fifty technicians have?  More than one could probably imagine!  Any company, (about ten I can think of), would be more than appreciative of a list of 50 availability, qualified technicians.  The number of available opportunities in any given season will probably remain constant; making those opportunities more beneficial would be totally up to the members!  Sound like the perfect world?  I don't want to make it sound too good to resist, it wouldn't be easy and some sacrifices would probably have to be made, but at least you would have the informed ability to make them!   

The industry is currently at the beginning of the HP technician feeding frenzy, (my opinion)!  The resurrection of nuclear power, (13 Billion in available US Government Incentives, global warming and 180 flip of some green organizations), has brought it closer to a reality!  They know the manpower shortage is going to cause problems at crunch time, especially since we are one of the few disciplines with a specific qualification criteria.  I do agree that time is running short for the venue, very short!  I believe the anticipated commercial operation of the next generation power plant, is somewhere in 2014, or about 4 years after official ground breaking. If doing business the same old way adds to your security, then by all means continues with their agenda!  If you’re looking for a more stable future, then I suggest you find a new one!  We have seen lots of information on this threat, good, bad and indifferent!  I believe everybody who has posted a comment to this thread is in agreement with one thing, “There is a Necessity for Improvement”!

Have A Great Day, RG!

[alphadude]

Communication does go a long way. Posting pay grades in a common area would help level things.  Open communication is best-however disclosure of pay grades must be done with care- If you are non-union and wish to stay that way, set standards for your self and then stick by them..

*Set minimum pay requirements and don't go below this.

*Get signed agreements on pay grade and listed benefits.

*Accept responsibility, if you sign an agreement and it meets your pay criteria, refrain from snivels and whines when you find out someone else has a different pay grade.
 
*Learn negotiation skills.

*Avoid the "per diem" fog, look at your base pay and that only. ALL wage determination by you should be based on this only. (do not include per diem and OT in your base pay rate) The CONUS rates do vary and you have no control over this. However, part of your hourly wages can be "deffered" into "per diem" thus giving you tax free money.  Look up the CONUS rate and discuss with your employer about making up the difference from your pay.  OT is not a benefit.. You actually work for less money after 60 hours a week. (When you get past 50 years old it really sucks.)

*Get bonded and go 1099. (PAY your taxes on time or you will be sorry)

*Set up a 401k.

*Enhance your education level and skills-this will always pay off, if done right.  Why be a tech when you can be an engineer? (mo money mo money mo money)

*Join a professional organization.

As it looks here there are only two solutions- union or whats listed above.  The fringe portion of "Why isnt life fair?" types only stir the pot and don't offer any real solutions. The union is one viable solution, and so are the points I have offered. Pick one and live with it.

[Shawnee Man]

Communication does go a long way. Posting pay grades in a common area would help level things.  Open communication is best-however disclosure of pay grades must be done with care- If you are non-union and wish to stay that way, set standards for your self and then stick by them..

*Set minimum pay requirements and don't go below this.

*Get signed agreements on pay grade and listed benefits.

*Accept responsibility, if you sign an agreement and it meets your pay criteria, refrain from snivels and whines when you find out someone else has a different pay grade.
 
*Learn negotiation skills.

*Avoid the "per diem" fog, look at your base pay and that only. ALL wage determination by you should be based on this only. (do not include per diem and OT in your base pay rate) The CONUS rates do vary and you have no control over this. However, part of your hourly wages can be "deffered" into "per diem" thus giving you tax free money.  Look up the CONUS rate and discuss with your employer about making up the difference from your pay.  OT is not a benefit.. You actually work for less money after 60 hours a week. (When you get past 50 years old it really sucks.)

*Get bonded and go 1099. (PAY your taxes on time or you will be sorry)

*Set up a 401k.

*Enhance your education level and skills-this will always pay off, if done right.  Why be a tech when you can be an engineer? (mo money mo money mo money)

*Join a professional organization.

As it looks here there are only two solutions- union or whats listed above.  The fringe portion of "Why isnt life fair?" types only stir the pot and don't offer any real solutions. The union is one viable solution, and so are the points I have offered. Pick one and live with it.

*Set minimum pay requirements and don't go below this.
Yes we do, but as Huey Pierce Long once put it, We are hicks, who is going to care about a hicks pay. When utilities and RPMs meet on a regular basis on man power, who is smarter, surely not us hicks!

*Get signed agreements on pay grade and listed benefits. What planet are you on alphadude. In Hicksville we say yes sir and no sir and how high sir!

*Accept responsibility, if you sign an agreement and it meets your pay criteria, refrain from snivels and whines when you find out someone else has a different pay grade. You are not in Hicksville, we can't even spell hellf fysics! Just rad, smear, and air!! Us hicks are too dumb to hardly even work at nuklear plants. But we can take enuf time to pe in a bottle so we can work.

*Learn negotiation skills. Us hicks never even passed high school.

*Avoid the "per diem" fog, look at your base pay and that only. ALL wage determination by you should be based on this only. (do not include per diem and OT in your base pay rate) The CONUS rates do vary and you have no control over this. However, part of your hourly wages can be "deffered" into "per diem" thus giving you tax free money.  Look up the CONUS rate and discuss with your employer about making up the difference from your pay.  OT is not a benefit.. You actually work for less money after 60 hours a week. (When you get past 50 years old it really sucks.) Whew all can figur is what I gots in my hick pocket. It is too hard to figur, how I needs is enuf money till next pay day. I can go sell sum blood to get sum money for my kids new chuws.

*Enhance your education level and skills-this will always pay off, if done right.  Why be a tech when you can be an engineer? (mo money mo money mo money). Now why wud I want to ride a train?

*Join a professional organization. Hicks can do that. Then we can give our dollars and cents to someone to so they can tell us how smart they are why they muk it up on their boon doggles a couple a times a year.

As it looks here there are only two solutions- union or whats listed above.  The fringe portion of "Why isnt life fair?" types only stir the pot and don't offer any real solutions. The union is one viable solution, and so are the points I have offered. Pick one and live with it. People running for office each year, seem to do fine on this idea. Get elected, work two or fours years and get a pension. I guess us hicks like to stir the pot so some well to do can sit there and look down on us poor hicks.

Got to go and slop the pigs!

[RAD-GHOST]

Ouch! 

Gentleman to your corners!

Sometimes we need a Moderator and sometimes we need a Mediator!

RG

[Shawnee Man]

The contract companies could careless if we made $100/hr or $50/hr. They take their cut for a service, I do not see problem with that. But when scraps off the table become crumbs, its time to start nibbling on the toes of the ones who trample on us!
Suey! Suey!

[alphadude]

So what is your solution?  Give some positive solutions in lieu of "Unions done us wrong or killed the economy" smoke screen.  Either sell your services professionally or collectively- was the point of discussion.

Quantify who trampled on us.. would be a good start. Has someone been forced to take a job by some prospective employer? 

The information I provided is the type of information I would give any student just starting the business.

[Shawnee Man]

As Mr. Jordan and many others have stated:

1) Get a proposal from a union of what things us hicks are looking for. This has been going on this thread for a while.
2) Not strike, but have an ongoing process of negotiations between the employers and the utitilities themselves.
3) Wages are off by about $5.00/hr roughly from where they should be.
4) Some partial pay down of medical insurance if you work so many hours per year for a company.
5) More people would stay in the business if they could have these items.

Trampled being; not having representation in the room when hourly and bonus pay are being discussed. I seemed to remember the Boston Tea Party: where taxes levied on tea, but in this instance we never got the money to start with to buy the tea.

As for the part of being forced to take a job, no one has forced someone to take a job. Just as people have been discriminated in the past to glass ceilings, whether you were female or african american you still have to support your family.

Information given to a student starting the business, I too know so well. For I have contact with graduates from my school, RCT Training Program of SES, Inc.
Many go directly to DOE Contractors and the rest of highly recruited by Atlantic Group. We try to instill in them a pride and professionalism that they are the last line of defense for a utility to protect their workers, general public, and their plant.

This is why I want them, you, and other fellow co-workers to be represented so we all can live in prosperity.

I do come across strong for a hick, but that is my nature: straight shooter.

[biloxoi blues]

Why be an engineer when ya can be a CEO?  I would never settle on being just an engineer (mo money, mo money) 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

[alphadude]

1) Get a proposal from a union of what things us hicks are looking for. This has been going on this thread for a while.

Sign the cards. Thats the way it works.  It is a problem with IBEW since RATs would not be the majority of the population in the union... lineman and operators usually get to call the shots on items to included in the contract..


2) Not strike, but have an ongoing process of negotiations between the employees and the utitilities themselves.

Unfortunately, negotiations are not ongoing when the contract is in place. If you are in negotiation you either dont have a contract or its ending soon. You only strike when the contact is in violation or the company is forcing workers to perform tasks not specified in the contract.. there are no gray areas in the contract or areas not covered.. if there is you strike..


3) Wages are off by about $5.00/hr roughly from where they should be.

Based on what criteria?

4) Some partial pay down of medical insurance if you work so many hours per year for a company.

Fair enuff.... but this has to be negotiated.

5) More people would stay in the business if they could have these items. 

People are staying the business anyway!!! 

Age is the major contribution to the attritian rate for technicians now- all the atomic age guys are gone, all the pre-ANSI types have moved on (me), most of the Rickover hand picks have moved on, and the HP highschool types are getting a little long in the tooth-

I'm in management, so I don't get to be a card carrier.

[wlrun3@aol.com]

"Here is a plan.. for management.. Increase the amount of people being trained for HPs. Start training programs in house, take in entry level, go out to tech schools and support those. In 5 years- cost of contractor techs would drop about 1/4 due to the influx of more trained workers trying to fill only so many positions.. people would take less money in an effort to support a degrading life style."..."I'm in management."

[azkidd]

I hope all the players voted on the topic.  I thought this was a poll.  I am glad I am prosperous.  Oh.....NO

[SloGlo]

maybe i got all this wrong.  i thought this discussion wuz bout gettin a nucleer contractors local together.  iffen this isa case, then woodent we be the ones two discuss contract points?  woodent we be the ones to decided watt wood the classifications of different levels of skill, in udder words, what makes a journeyman, an apprentice, 'n all points in between?  woodent we vote on, and have as a platform to take to the employers, our concerns?  rad ghost posted some valid points a couple of times.  i'm generally in favor of the majority of those.  if it was put to a vote, mine wood be <aye>.

[jjordan]

SloGlo,
I'd second the motion, but I don't have a vote here! I have one at BNP, and I'm for a union. I'm just trying to steer and give you some guidance and some factual information. There seems to be many misconceptions of how all of this wil transpire. It is all law, so look it up on the NLRB web site. alphadude, the IBEW wants the transient workers, ie RAT's, deconners, ect. Not already covered by a union agreement. This eliminates the operators, and lineman. They are most likely in the IBEW, if not they need to do likewise and organize at their plant. Now how the card works seems to be a major stumbling block. OK one more time: You sign a card, this card authorizes the IBEW to represent you to get the right to bargin collectively (whomever the NLRB deems to be eligelbe to vote) This is not a contract! The contract companies nor the utilities ever see this card. The cards go to the NLRB, who do a head count of all of the people they determine to be eligible to vote. 30% is the bare minimum to schedule a vote. At 50% the IBEW is required by law to ask the employers to recognize you as a majority and bargin with you collectively. Now you've got a better chance of seeing Elvis, than for the employers to throw in the towel without a vote. But this is a bit different than organizing a plant. The contract companies are all middlemen, and it doesn't hurt them one way or the other. Unless some non union company tries to lowball a bid. Which will probably happen. Being that over 80% of the nukes are already union, the unions will exert pressure to only use union contractors.OK back on track, when the IBEW determines who is eligible, they will schedule a vote (mail in ballot? I'm not sure!) The card is still not a contract. If you signed one, you can still vote no, and you can also get it back if you change your mind. (we've had a few sell out, or gone brain dead, they got theirs back. No problem!) Oh by the way no one knows how you vote. It's a secret ballot to protect everyone! After you win the election, You determine what you want in your contract, and how you want to run things: ie officers, senority, pension, holidays, hospitilization, ect. The IBEW may have some ideas as to how you can make it work, but You have to make it work. They will help you , but can't do it for you. $5.00 low? I was thinking closer to $10.00 I make about $32.50, if you do the same work, and give up part of your lives. Why shouldn't you be compensated closely to what the house techs make? Is my survey better than yours? Think about it. I'm in my comfort zone. You all have to wing it outge after outage. It's harder being a contractor. Trust me, I've done both. Ya'll need too get your s**t together before they run a bunch of kids in on you who'll work for peanuts, cause thats way more than Burger King pays! Don't need hospitilization cause they're young and healthy. What's a 401K for? A pension, hey I'm never gonna get old! Take a good long hard look in the mirror, because what I just described was you 20-25 years ago, and a good many haven't grown up yet! They're comming and you're all going! And you're all going to go together, so why not get together now, and slow down the process. Make it on your terms not theirs. You have a small window of oportunity here, take advantage of it. Oh yeah I almost forgot, the IBEW only reccomends a strike as the absolutley last resort, and they do have a lot of contracts with no strike clauses. They also can fine a member that breaks his agreement, and they should be able too. If you give your word, doesnt that mean something to you? It does me! Nobody will force you to join, but if you break your word thhat hurts the organization. It may come as quite a shock to most of you, but not everyone is reputable! No Way! I believe everyone in the break trailer!
Whew! 7 1/2 cents worth.
JJ

[alphadude]

(note: the card I was refering to is the request petition for representation-not to join.)

JJ you are preaching to the choir 

Im all for collective representation-It makes things a whole lot easier-Point being HPs at this time in history have the ability to take hold of the ole canoles and squeeze tite.. but it ain't happening, !! The only way it can be accomplished is by the collective.  What is the case here are- Individuals making  enuff noise to hinder the process or are do less than 49% of HPs want the union- in that case give it up-(too many superstars?)

We tried bringing in HPs thru the local-the per diem junkies killed that idea! Which may be the crux of the issue- WILL WORK FOR PER DIEM!!   Perhaps this issue goes deeper than just we want to work- It really seems that it is a "I want it my way"  issue.  I want to stay at my home Ive had for years-I want my 3 months of doing nothing to do what I want, and I want to pick where I go, I want tax free money in excess of what I need to live off of, drag up when I want too, and pick the shift I want etc...

As for us house types- we went there expecting to stay there for a while because those that do get the long haul rewards! educational benefits, union wage, medical, retirement and so on...

So can anybody come up with a simple plan that allows migrant types to be sunshine union worker?  JJs perspective is from a long haul situation- me Im just looking in from the outside and so far I see that the union aint a happening and aint never gonna happen. Its all about demographics...

If you want to organize provide some simple step by step ways of doing that and end this thread-

[alphadude]

the sound of one hand clapping---nice

[BuddyThePug]

the sound of one hand clapping---nice

Looks like its about done then?

[jjordan]

Oh I don't know, we'll see if there are any more questions that need clarification. 362 posts and almost 8000 views. I think a few people are slightly interested.
JJ

[Walt Harris]

So can anybody come up with a simple plan that allows migrant types to be sunshine union worker?  JJs perspective is from a long haul situation- me Im just looking in from the outside and so far I see that the union aint a happening and aint never gonna happen. Its all about demographics...

Yeah! ..... what he said!

-Walt

[SloGlo]

SloGlo,
 Ya'll need too get your s**t together before they run a bunch of kids in on you who'll work for peanuts, cause thats way more than Burger King pays!

'n that's not the only nasty scenario comming down the pike, it's just the most personal.  butt to stay on this logic line, will one of the illustrious management types run the research 'n post what it would actually take for the power plant industry to change their definition of hp tech?

[RDTroja]

I am not in management, but to change the definition of what an HP is, you have to change the ANSI Standard... not impossible, but not at all likely to change it to make it less stringent. The chance of being replaced by 'a bunch of kids' is nil. Just what we need in a serious discussion is scare tactics. JJ lost all of his credibility in my mind just by bringing that one up. What a shame.

[SloGlo]

I am not in management, but to change the definition of what an HP is, you have to change the ANSI Standard... not impossible, but not at all likely to change it to make it less stringent.

yet in the mid 80s the definition of a 3.1 changed.  prior it had been an hpt with 36 months of commercial operating nuclear power plant time.  then it changed to 36 months of commercial nuclear power plant time.  only one word change, but it opened the 3.1 door to masses of outage techs who had not any operating plant time.  does anyone remember how long this change had been in the works before it was enacted?

[ramdog_1]

no way would I be part of the IBEW you need to wear a flea coller
besides what would they do for you anyways? go ahead I would cross any line I got a house to pay for and people to feed.
besides if you did when I would get all the same bennys and not have to join ! it is called right to work.

[alphadude]

in the real world of things- those not meeting the criteria for ANSI hp (SR) can still work at SR pay grade under the JPM. If that person has completed the required training in that specific task and meets the qualification (signed off) he or she can be upgraded to perform the specific task at SR pay grade. Its been done thousands of times and its accepted by the NRC and the union.  So there is variance to the ANSI standard. As for bringing in "kids", they would still have to complete training and be qualified prior to performing SR level tasks. 

Keep it going ramdog- gives dime a dozen new meaning... it the present situation when there are those willing to undercut the collective-(and there are lots of them) utilities can get all the workers they need at the price they want!  Ramdog provided an excellent example of that. Ramdog when you screw up you dont get all the benefits as the union. Management can get rid of those non-union pukes in a heart beat. no representation, no grievance process- just DFR.  Its a long drawn out process with a union guy and they usually get to stay for another chance.

[ramdog_1]

DFR is what you have had all your life if you want a union go house.
there is a lot more to be in a compnay that is union they have to have an agrement with a union signed. then the super calls the hall and says send me 3 more bodys. they will go for locals frist then they ask for travlers. so do not think you been there a lot and some house puke likes you when it is with the hall they take who they get at the site.
I am sure we the union will protect the sick lame and lazy and the worker who calls in sick every monday.
good luck like I say go house you want to be union

[alphadude]

and there lies the situation- on one side you have workers that feel confident about what they do -such as ramdog- in the middle you have workers that want it both ways- but are unwilling to go union- and then you have those that want representation- I would say that both extremes have their good and bad points but its a working system- the fence sitters should choose and decide how they want to live- talk to those like ramdog that seem confident in what they do or talk to JJ to see his side of the situation.  pick a side and live with it!

At present there are too many anti union HP techs to form a collective- (tending towards conservative politics) the pro union group seems to be a minority with the middle of the road swaying towards the antiunion. The demographics of US politics is well represented in this work force and reflects the current political position of Americans in general.