Rent a tech Union debate

[SloGlo]

This topic has stayed on topic and civil, for the most part, keeping it out of PolySci and it is still one of the fastest growing threads in the Forum.

amen brudder marlin, 'n a big tipa da brim to alla posters who have kept it here in and out of poly sci.  mae da fourse be with yinz.  now, iffen we cood here phrum suma da resta da onlines, lurkers, 'n posters extrodinaire......

[thenukeman]

Look at my last post. I did not say all union workers were lazy, I said some worked hard. But in the end it did not matter last hired first fired. I covered one of the hardest working group. They even called themselves the A team. They got a DOE national award. However, the whiners and crybabies most with alot more time would not work with them because they did work. What made it even worse  is when they got an award the sleep shack people got the same plaques as the ones who worked.  Supervisors would not do there jobs because the union would sue if they lifted a finger against someone.  One person I remember hollering I do what I want when I want.  and he did. One of my A team people got layed off because he was low man.  He got hired back as a supervisor as a reward.  The union finally got shutout and my buddy is still; there. The slackers are gone and I do not care where they are. My experience with unions are they are scum.  They lend themselves to enablers, people who think they are entitled to your dues and spend it on politicians they want.  OK this is my last post on this I have vented enough!!!!   Got to watch Hannity and Combs.  Fair and balanced.  LOL  

[jjordan]

Look at my last post. I did not say all union workers were lazy, I said some worked hard. But in the end it did not matter last hired first fired. I covered one of the hardest working group. They even called themselves the A team. They got a DOE national award. However, the whiners and crybabies most with alot more time would not work with them because they did work. What made it even worse  is when they got an award the sleep shack people got the same plaques as the ones who worked.  Supervisors would not do there jobs because the union would sue if they lifted a finger against someone.  One person I remember hollering I do what I want when I want.  and he did. One of my A team people got layed off because he was low man.  He got hired back as a supervisor as a reward.  The union finally got shutout and my buddy is still; there. The slackers are gone and I do not care where they are. My experience with unions are they are scum.  They lend themselves to enablers, people who think they are entitled to your dues and spend it on politicians they want.  OK this is my last post on this I have vented enough!!!!   Got to watch Hannity and Combs.  Fair and balanced.  LOL  

OK Beercourt! My turn to holler BS! I've been in unions for about half of my adult life. When I was a supervisor, if you weren't performing, you were the very first to go! In fact You may have been the only one to go! I never fired anyone,I always laid them off, and the union never uttered a word in their deffense. If they deserved it they got it, end of report! Layoffs were always performance based. Now some unions maybe do go by senority. Sounds like you like that, because you always revert back to it. But your contract doesn;t exist yet. Are you all so feeble to only be able to draft a lousy one? Sounds like it. Why, because it's easier! (See my previous post) It's easiser to whine about how bad it is instead of trying to change things for the better. You've all had it pretty easy for a while. Now things are going to tighten up and get a little harder. I hope you all are a smart and ambitous as you perceive yourselves to be. Because without a union, you're on your own. Supervision all have plenty of help, and if it aint enough there is another snakey lawyer just one phone call away!
JJ
PS It is fair and balanced, you can LOL, but they let both side post! BTW I read all of your posts one qoute was "Unions encourage mediocrity, laziness, I do not care attitude, Even worse, It does not matter if you a a good worker if you were hired last you will be fired first attitude" Fired and laid off are 2 different things! Another quote that particulary bothered me was "but still the same communistic agenda that unions have" Unions are democratic, we've always voted on every decision the union ever made. either by a show of hands, or secret ballot, depending on the sensitivity of the issue.

[RDTroja]

Another quote that particulary bothered me was "but still the same communistic agenda that unions have" Unions are democratic, we've always voted on every decision the union ever made. either by a show of hands, or secret ballot, depending on the sensitivity of the issue.

There have been a lot of things said that I have chosen not to chime in on. I have said pretty much what I have to say about this over flogged subject. HOWEVER...

Unions are very directly related to Communism as a philosophy. The opposite of Communisim is NOT Democracy. The opposite of Communism is Capitalism. Ask any communisitic government if they are democratic and they will tell you they most certainly are... and they are right. Is it good democracy? So far the answer to that IMHO is no. But unions at their very core are anti-capitalistic. True capitalism was what we had when the robber barons were running businesses that were concerned solely with turning a profit. That is what capitalism in its pure form is. The unions came along and tempered capitalism to give it a more humane bent. So, to argue that unions are not communistic is incorrect, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. There are good and bad things about communism just like there are good and bad things about capitalism (as we learned around the turn of the last century.) In very broad terms, capitalism tends to produce people that are more willing to work hard to gain what they want and communism tend to produce people that do only what they need to do to achieve the goal. No one gets more yet the talented ones are expected to produce more. "To each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities." That only works when people all think the same way and all have the same commitment to the common goal (or the common good.) Eventually the people with higher abilities tend to get angry when they get no more for their extra effort.

One thing capitalism and communism have in common -- without controls in place to prevent abuse when the wrong people are in control things get very ugly very fast.

Again, I am not anti-union. I personally think that a union for HP techs would cost us more than it would gain us, but that is just one man's opinion. For some people I am sure it would work well. It just depends on how the cost/benefit analysis turns out for each individual, and how much individuality they are willing to sacrifice to get what they want. I do not want to give up any of the flexibility I have and I am not in the least bit afraid of being replaced by someone new. The best thing to do to avoid being replaced is to convince the powers that be that you are worth more than the people they want to replace you with. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.

[RDTroja]

On a different subject that has been touched on a bit here, the number of votes is indeed very low considering the amount of attention this has gotten (although you have to count the number of repeat posts by certain individuals when considering the high level of activity.) The main reason I have not voted is that the answer is a resounding "I can't answer that given the information."

Would I sign a card? The answer has to be yes because I did that once. Would I do it again? I do not think so, for several reasons. First and foremost, I will not give my support to the same organization that dropped us like a hot potato when we tried this before without some very certain reassurances that the union is not in a position to give. The word debacle keeps coming to mind for some reason. I do not think anyone is out to get us (some of our money, perhaps) nor do I doubt anyone's good intentions, but 'Fooled me once...'

[alphadude]

are we confusing socialism with communism?  communism is the poly sci of communial living- every thing belongs to the collective, unions do not fit into communism.

socialism is the poly sci of social interaction and management under a directive- which organized labor fits into

The USSR was neither communist nor socialist- it was abberant.

Marx and Engles are would not be happy

[Dave Warren]

To be fair and balanced, we have to include some statistics:

PERCENTAGE OF UNIONIZED EMPLOYEES IN THE U.S. IN 2005

TOP TEN
New York 26.1 %
Alaska 22.8%
New Jersey 20.5 %
Michigan 20.5 %
Washington 19.1 %
Illinois 16.9%
California 16.5%
Wisconsin 16.1 %
Ohio 16 %
Rhode Island 15.9 %
Connecticut 15.9%

BOTTOM TEN
South Carolina 2.3 %
North Carolina 2.9 %
Arkansas 4.8 %
Virginia 4.8 %
Utah 4.9 %
Idaho 5.2 %
Florida 5.4 %
Tennessee 5.4 %
South Dakota 5.9 %
Arizona 6.1 %

[Tina]

  Well I was one of the 16.9% in Illinois in 2005 and my vote is still NO 

[Walt Harris]

To be fair and balanced, we have to include some statistics:

PERCENTAGE OF UNIONIZED EMPLOYEES IN THE U.S. IN 2005


BOTTOM TEN
South Carolina 2.3 %

Maybe that's where I get it from ... Go SC!!

[alphadude]

yep go SC... love those low paying jobs and the social class ... been there from there...

[Roll Tide]

Wonder why all the new plants are being proposed in the South? 

[alphadude]

its got to be the step and fetch it attitude ..... 

[Walt Harris]

Wonder why all the new plants are being proposed in the South? 

Good ole' Right to Work States!! Come on down boys and girls!

[Walt Harris]

yep go SC... love those low paying jobs and the social class ... been there from there...

Oh a-dude! Think about it ..... working side-by-side ... you a card carrier, .... me not, ...you get paid $XX.XX/hr (minus your dues), me gettin $XX.XX/hr (no dues) ....... week-ends we can go canoeing on the Chattooga, (I know a kid, ain't much for conversation but plays a mean banjo!)

[RDTroja]

are we confusing socialism with communism?

Yes, it is socailism and not communism, but I did not want to get into a discussion of the difference. I figured that was not really the issue here. After I posted, I almost went back and changed it but it was late and I got lazy and the point had been made.

As for the USSR, it did actually start out to be socialist, but like any dictatorship it warped into something that did not fit any philosophy but the leader's.

[Brett LaVigne]

Oh a-dude! Think about it ..... working side-by-side ... you a card carrier, .... me not, ...you get paid $XX.XX/hr (minus your dues), me gettin $XX.XX/hr (no dues) ....... week-ends we can go canoeing on the Chattooga, (I know a kid, ain't much for conversation but plays a mean banjo!)

Now that was funny!

[alphadude]

well i tried to bring in the union into Oconee,(OCAW) got me the best job I ever had- setting up Jocassee and Bad Creek-

The reason we were wanting union was that pay raises were based on what the supervisor thought of you and what church you attended-(I kid you not) saving on the budget was accomplished from your lack of pay raise only to be given back to managers as as incentive- (wonder why 30 techs quit in one month at Oconee in 1977?) harsh non-union southern white man politics- I think it was this time period I knew I wanted to be in management. If I had to swallow at least there was some honey with it-


Oh Walt I didnt know you were a "fellow traveler!"  nice cover.... (benefits from the union wage scale but contributes nothing to his fellow workers)  Its all about me!

you got a purty mouth Walt.... come on up to Burls

didnt know I was from Oconee did ya!

[Tina]

  Humm lets see.... In 2004 I had had been a Union employee for 8.5 years ( at a Nuclear Power Facility) in Illinois... I was about to get my annual expected pay raise when I had to adhere in the "majority rule" of my Union Brothern and give my Union a pay raise instead of myself... I worked all year and was forced to lose my raise for that year and the up coming three years in the re-up of our union contract ... not only did I lose that raise but it took an additional $700.00 per year from my annual income with no additional overtime to compensate for the loss... at that point and due to that point I became a Traveling Tech...hince I WORK FOR ME ... 12 months later my annual income went up approx 1/2 in yearly gains ... and my 2006 yearly income has averaged out to a 1/3 in yearly gain of income to myself in compairson to 2004... from which I had a small stent of unemployment which ran approx 4 months of the year ( it was the first time in my life to draw on unemployment) and while drawing unemployment I made more income per pay then in the year of 2004 the year of "the Union Worker" (thank you Mass).... I have changed my lifestly mindset since 2004 the year of the union worker I have become an employee for myself... ( I work for me) I still have some hands in my pie like Taxes, Insurance, and debts of places I pick and determine to give my money to at my own discretion ... but I dont have a majority telling me I lost my raise this year... I travel and see the United States more, I vacation at places like Florida, Colorado, New Orleans, and New York for a lot less because I have made lifetime friendships with fellow employees that have worked with me on differnt projects and sites... I have my children come and stay with my grandkids for small family vacations when I work so they can experience differant states and our christmases have improved due to the added income from my choice of work... as I like to say I work for me not for "them" (THEM being the ones who try to put their hands in my pie).... I also have the benny of diving "my hobby of choice" in places such as Bahammas/Mexico and such when Im in between jobs my free time is mine... when called to work Im paid to get there, and I do my job and Im paid for it accordingly, and I like it that way... So tell me again how the Union is suppose to be a benefit to me    

[alphadude]

Its not- but I think your complaint was unequal pay for the same job- if you are willing to live with that sounds like you are doin ok... and without representation you really have no choice on the pay-things will be unequal- I know the company owner so I get more, you dont so you get less, sounds OK to me!

[biloxoi blues]

Is this a rent a tech union debate or how great thou are debate?  Did all these good fortunes you tell us all have to do because you didnt work  union or is it you decided to change your habits.  So one is to take it that you dont work for any company.  Cause if you work for a company you are not independent and that means there is another handout.  As a rent a tech one doesnt always have the option of working wherever they want to and how long they want to, but one does always have the option of where one doesnt want to work or when one can leave.   Even the regional managers (who I work for) of the comapany (who sometime still swing a meter) dont always have the option of where and when they want to work.   This was for the person who had almost 30 "I's" in their post.

[alphadude]

me likey   

[Tina]

  As for myself I have seen first hand no Benefit to being a Union Employee... when neg a pay raise the company told the union what it was willing to give... the union sent it to us the employees and we either accepted it or not but in the end we got what they (the company said they were willing to give us) wage vs insurance premium expense.. as for training we got the training the company said we had to have to meet the NRC regs... no more no less. if we were hired by the company we would have gotten the same training no diff... so the union didnt affect out training the NRC did... hours of work the NRC called the shots not us, not the Union, and not the company...the NRC capt the OT through regs.... union benefits there none... the company I worked for choose our insurance carrier, union benefit there none.... I paid union dues for WHAT they didnt keep my job for me I did, I left on my own terms, I stayed on my own terms, but had to pay the union just to be able to work benefit for me none...  my promotions and my work ethic never came into play with the union... I got what everyone else did for our money from the union... thank you but no thank you... Currently I get the hourly wage the company hired me for if I accept it then thats what I get ... not less a union  due ... my money is mine after I do the job I was hired to do ... I get my pay on time my taxes get paid my insurance company is happy and life is good ... the Union wants my money for what ... so I dont have it ... I dont need their product so I dont want to buy ...  there product is of no benefit to me at this time  now I keep waiting to see why it ever would be but havent as of as yet 

[alphadude]

Tina didnt you get your training under a union program? Were you not trained in accord with union seniority rules? Wasnt your pay a direct result of union agreements? Wasnt your medical for that time period a result of union benefits?  or are we missing something here?  were you not treated on a fair basis within the union contract (no male or female preference) ? were others in your pay grade making more and doing less? didnt respect for a safety culture come from a union environment?  did you enter the union as tech skilled or unskilled? If skilled were your skills not enhanced, unskilled needless to say....

sounds like the union had a lot to do with your life as far as the skills you demonstrate as a tech.

[azkidd]

I'msorry alphadude.  Safety Culture and Union Environment are two completely opposite sides of the Hemisphere.  Especially in Illinois.  We have a very good Safety Culture, and.....are non union.  You need to stop while you are ahead.  Its' storyline like yours that shows just the reason there is no support on this thread.  I for one am against, but stand with those who are looking for SERIOUS reasons why, and how to go about organizing.  Your posts don't work.  I call it .....propaganda?

[alphadude]

but the beauty is im non union so its not propaganda if I dont belong to the party.. Im management

how did you come to the conclusion that unions are not part of the safety culture?  Unions partner with safety and are contractually bound to do so.  (safety culture is beyond "protect the core" mentality)

were you ever in the union azkidd? have you ever been on either sided of the contract negotiation or had any negotiation training?

the orginal statement I made was that this is a dead issue with RATs and should not go much further, I made this statement about 2 years ago on this thread and it really hasnt gone much farther.. however, when general broad statements are made.. all unions are bad...etc.. its time to get in there and make comments about close minded individuals that try to sway others with hollow experience.. I  am not pro nor against unions- all I would like to see is that:

people look at the facts and their conditions and the situation in analytical terms and decide ( be pro active)

accept that they agreed to the pay and the conditions and accept responsiblity (stop sniveling)

those that wish to organize have the rights to do so (control your future)

management has the right to manage

and broad general statements like safety and unions are opposite or all unions are bad be stopped

Oh yea-there is not much support with RATs and the unions so its really a dead issue.