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Would You support a nationwide IBEW Union, and sign a card?

Yes
102 (52.3%)
No
93 (47.7%)

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Author Topic: Rent a tech Union debate  (Read 420448 times)

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jjordan

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #525 on: Feb 19, 2007, 10:42 »
ramdog_1 You get this kind of money all of the time? Or is this a one time shot? :o
JJ

Offline Marlin

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #526 on: Feb 19, 2007, 10:42 »
SloGlo, I don't know how to id which posting I'm replying to, but as to what I would forsee....


Hit the Quote button in the posting you wish to reply to or Insert Quote after you start a reply.
« Last Edit: Feb 19, 2007, 10:44 by Marlin »

Offline cjking5406

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #527 on: Feb 19, 2007, 10:46 »

Hit the Quote button in the posting you wish to reply to

Thanks, I'm trainable!

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Offline Brett LaVigne

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #528 on: Feb 20, 2007, 07:15 »
I respect your no vote Bat Man. I just don't understand the logic. I hope you have invested very well, and are on in years, because the younger you are the more likely it will be, that your nest egg will be hit very hard by health care. One serious illness will set you back major. Like CJ said, when I was traveling, I too was younger, and not as concerned with the future. Health care was my primary concern, even though I was very healthy.When i started, I flipped from company to company, the outages were much longer, and this almost worked, but not quite. Everytime you switched, you had a 6 month grace period where you weren't quite covered. Now you had the option to Cobra for up to 18 months, but it was way expensive, and only worked out if you returned to your previous employer. I finally decided for some stability, I would work steady for Bartlett. This worked out for the best for me. Eventually, they got most of the contracts so I didn't have to drive as far or work an undesireable plant. I still had to Cobra 2 maybe 3 month in the summers sometimes, but i had stability, and I knew I'd go back first thing in the fall. I did care about my future also, so when they offered a 40!K I jumped on it! Unfortuatley so did my ex wife and a few attorneys. You may think you have it all covered, but S__t happens, so having some good health care and a pension, might be a good thing!
JJ 8)


Wouldn't disagree that things can happen.  We plan the best we can.  Invest, own what you have, and search out a good health plan on your own.  Thats what we do.  You don't have to have a health plan through the company you work for to have decent insurance.  And if you think that a Union is going to protect your assets (including retirement plans) from an ex wife scenario...it won't.

A Union is not an insurance plan for "S--t happens".  Responsible living is an insurance plan to minimize the impact of "S--t happens" events. 

I grew up in an automotive town, very strong union, very strong "You owe me my job" mentality.  I know plenty of union workers that don't have a pot to piss in, I know plenty of union workers that are doing very well.  Same goes for my non-union buddies.  A union doesn't protect people from making dumb decisions about the way they live life, the way they spend their money and the wife leaving you for a newer model.

I am 37, have a 32 year old wife and a 2 year old daughter.  I do realize that insurance gets more expensive the older we get.  Right now it isn't too bad, bout the same as a modest car payment.  I have a brother in law that is fighting a life threatning illness with a wife and two little girls, their insurance is like a mortgage.  But if you don't have car payments and house payments and credit card payments, you can easily afford the health insurance.  I get tired of people thinking that some of the benefits of unionizing like cheaper health insurance and a pension are worth the freedom that might be lost.  I just don't think it is.  You can invest for the future without a union.  I do however, respect the opinions of those who are in favor.

Union discussion is like talking about religion, people are passionate on both sides.  Makes for interesting conversation.
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alphadude

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #529 on: Feb 20, 2007, 12:10 »
the ramdog situation dont sound tooo common so it has no place in the discussion. 

hell i got $50 an hour working as a pool boy on the set of Wild Hogs, not to mention the lobster and fillet for lunch and steak and eggs for breakfast.. talking to Travolta and Macy and Lindsey Lohan (train wreck)  just for watching a fake pond leak...

Offline Marlin

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #530 on: Feb 20, 2007, 12:58 »
the ramdog situation dont sound tooo common so it has no place in the discussion. 

Alphadude is correct, this discussion will drift off of the central subject if we discuss situations outside 2 sigma on the distribution curve.

jjordan

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #531 on: Feb 21, 2007, 12:19 »
Wouldn't disagree that things can happen.  We plan the best we can.  Invest, own what you have, and search out a good health plan on your own.  Thats what we do.  You don't have to have a health plan through the company you work for to have decent insurance.  And if you think that a Union is going to protect your assets (including retirement plans) from an ex wife scenario...it won't.

A Union is not an insurance plan for "S--t happens".  Responsible living is an insurance plan to minimize the impact of "S--t happens" events. 

I grew up in an automotive town, very strong union, very strong "You owe me my job" mentality.  I know plenty of union workers that don't have a pot to piss in, I know plenty of union workers that are doing very well.  Same goes for my non-union buddies.  A union doesn't protect people from making dumb decisions about the way they live life, the way they spend their money and the wife leaving you for a newer model.

I am 37, have a 32 year old wife and a 2 year old daughter.  I do realize that insurance gets more expensive the older we get.  Right now it isn't too bad, bout the same as a modest car payment.  I have a brother in law that is fighting a life threatning illness with a wife and two little girls, their insurance is like a mortgage.  But if you don't have car payments and house payments and credit card payments, you can easily afford the health insurance.  I get tired of people thinking that some of the benefits of unionizing like cheaper health insurance and a pension are worth the freedom that might be lost.  I just don't think it is.  You can invest for the future without a union.  I do however, respect the opinions of those who are in favor.

Union discussion is like talking about religion, people are passionate on both sides.  Makes for interesting conversation.
Excellent post you are correct on most accounts if not all. What I'm saying is if the union gets you a package , say insurance and a pension. You don't have to go out and beat the bushes yourself. Most HP's aren't exactly EF Hutton, and have a hard time managing a lot of things, espeacially money! I'm one of the ones that is squirreling extra away, on top of my pension and 401K. 90% won't do this! Some have plans and don't participate. Go figure? But if it's part of the agreement, you're gonna take it? Right? I thought so! The poor managers need the union structure!
JJ

Offline Roll Tide

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #532 on: Feb 21, 2007, 12:29 »
it really can never work that way because of one simple fact- mother nature- she decides when it is warm and when it is cold-thus the peak load seasons. utilities do plan their schedule but its to support the national grid. manpower or tech power is about 50th on the list for reasons to delay an outage- customer demand, market cost, and critical path equipment delays determine when plants come down. 

I noticed that TVA's current Winter Peak record was set during my last outage @ SQN. While the Watts Bar SGRP was driving teh schedule, I don't think giving up 5 months a year is a requirement.
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alphadude

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #533 on: Feb 21, 2007, 01:24 »
if reserve and demand balance out then a plant can shut down when it needs too.. I remember before the national grid we used to do an outage during the winter-guess what no fuel oil for the aux boiler- had to stay down for an extra week.  when the grid came along and power was sold on the exchange -plants started to cycle into the presummer prewinter season with some stragglers.  buying power at a premium is no fun for a utility or its customers. 

The contrived California shortage a few years back was the result of some crafty (Enron) people buying power when it was cheap and then selling it back at a hugh profit.. so much for failed Regannomics.. (he had a good idea that was adminstered by greedy people)

Austria

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #534 on: Feb 22, 2007, 05:46 »
the ramdog situation dont sound tooo common so it has no place in the discussion. 

hell i got $50 an hour working as a pool boy on the set of Wild Hogs, not to mention the lobster and fillet for lunch and steak and eggs for breakfast.. talking to Travolta and Macy and Lindsey Lohan (train wreck)  just for watching a fake pond leak...

Yeah, and I get $45 to $70 an hour (individually negotiated contracts) to teach english, PLUS expenses. Not to mention that depending on how fast I can type I get up to $75 an hour for translating and proofreading on my computer at home.

Still, it would be interesting and, I am sure, a benefit to learn more about how ramdog gets what he does for BOTH sides of the issue.

I've always done well negotiating on my own in and out of the nuclear world and it sounds like ramdog has done even better in the nuclear biz. So the question I have is....what does ramdog know (or do) that can be applied to other individuals OR a union situation?  ::)

jjordan

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #535 on: Feb 22, 2007, 06:06 »
Yeah, and I get $45 to $70 an hour (individually negotiated contracts) to teach english, PLUS expenses. Not to mention that depending on how fast I can type I get up to $75 an hour for translating and proofreading on my computer at home.

Still, it would be interesting and, I am sure, a benefit to learn more about how ramdog gets what he does for BOTH sides of the issue.

I've always done well negotiating on my own in and out of the nuclear world and it sounds like ramdog has done even better in the nuclear biz. So the question I have is....what does ramdog know (or do) that can be applied to other individuals OR a union situation?  ::)

How much to teach SloGlo english? I'm one of the few that can understand what he says! :P
JJ

jjordan

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #536 on: Feb 22, 2007, 09:55 »
I see ramdog1 hasn't responded. I checked and the last time he was active here was when he posted on this thread. We'll wait and see if he'll answer the questions. Curious minds want to know! sounds like a small DOE specialist job,One time shot. Most commercial contracts are all in the same ballpark. If there is a plant or company too far out of the curve, everyone here knows about it, and I haven't heard of any sweet deals yet. Must be the large influx of DOE techs that RadGhost was telling us about!
JJ :P

Offline thenukeman

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #537 on: Feb 22, 2007, 10:31 »
I do not even see why there is a discussion  on this.  If there is a union rent a tech and there is a non union tech available who is going to be hired?  What company in their right mind is going to deal with a union for rent a techs in this scenario.  You get a loser and now he is protected if union. I do not think so. 

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #538 on: Feb 23, 2007, 05:30 »
It is pretty obvious that you just DO NOT GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A company has absolutely no choice whether it hires union members or not.  If its employees vote in a union, then all non-management employees hired in the trades (HP, DECON, etc.) that are organized MUST join the union to be hired.  PERIOD.
The company has no right to hire non-union employees if the workforce votes one in.
Read the law on this before you make any more uninformed statements.

To make it simple, I'll give you an example.  If the HP and decon techs who work for ACME Radiological Services join a union, then ACME becomes a union shop.  Any tech hired by ACME will have to join.

If ACME wants to hire non-union people after that point, they have to start another company that is non-union.  However, the employees of that company would then be free to vote in a union too.

At some point, if the techs join a union and refuse to work for non-union companies, then the work will have to go to the unionized techs because there won't be enough non-union techs to fill all the jobs.  Then, when HP's who are working non-union for MEFIRST Radiological Services see that there is a big group of HP's who are better compensated and have pensions and paid health insurance, they will organize too.

Please, disabuse yourself of the ridiculous idea that unions exist to protect the jobs of unqualified and lazy people.  It is an unfair and inaccurate portrayal of union members.  This is the real world - not a Marlon Brando movie.
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Offline thenukeman

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #539 on: Feb 23, 2007, 05:49 »
A Company has a right to hire techs from a union or non union company to staff a outage or a DOE job etc..  If a company is all union and one is not what prevents a contract to go to the non union techs that work for a non union company?  Why would a company hire a union company of temporary workers when they can get non union?  Some states are a right to work states and you do not have to join a union to work. What would prevent a company to setup a sattelite main office in a right to work state.  Then if they have to hire you as a union or someone else as non union who do you think they are going to hire.

By the way I base my opinion based on the fact I worked with Union workers not movies.  As I said before there are some good union workers and I got a DOE national award with them.  However the institutionalization of the majority of these workers, laziness, me first attitude, I only do what I want in my humble opinion brings the good ones down and I personally seen it and it made me sick of it, also the good workers who generally had less time in than the seasoned workers.  The good workers were in a hopeless situation that lent it self to the good ones getting laid off.  I think that union lend themselves to this communistic way and there is no way around it.  My Opinion, anyone who is promoting union is looking through rose colored glasses and does not take human nature in account.  Communism is the best system if humans were perfect, unfortunately they are not.  Unions may be perfect but as we know people are not. Some dues also go to those best to promote a certain agenda.  Funny how most of my good workers were in conflict with that agenda and the scum were not.
« Last Edit: Feb 23, 2007, 07:44 by thenukeman »

Offline SloGlo

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #540 on: Feb 23, 2007, 08:05 »
But if you don't have car payments and house payments and credit card payments, you can easily afford the health insurance. 

well!  this must be why the talk of health/medical/prescription insurance for the elderly in this country is such a dead issue, huh?
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Offline SloGlo

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #541 on: Feb 23, 2007, 08:08 »
if reserve and demand balance out then a plant can shut down when it needs too

when the current fuel testing is complete, commercial reactor fuel for the u.s. domestic fleet will be rated at five years. 
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Offline SloGlo

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #542 on: Feb 23, 2007, 08:11 »
Yeah, and I get $45 to $70 an hour (individually negotiated contracts) to teach english, PLUS expenses. Not to mention that depending on how fast I can type I get up to $75 an hour for translating and proofreading on my computer at home.

Still, it would be interesting and, I am sure, a benefit to learn more about how ramdog gets what he does for BOTH sides of the issue.

I've always done well negotiating on my own in and out of the nuclear world and it sounds like ramdog has done even better in the nuclear biz. So the question I have is....what does ramdog know (or do) that can be applied to other individuals OR a union situation?  ::)


austria and ramdog.... sounds like yinz two shud start a new thread!  sumtin like..."how do make big bucks outside of normal venues", or "how eye got bill gates jealous of my wallet".    ;)
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Offline SloGlo

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #543 on: Feb 23, 2007, 08:19 »
what prevents a contract to go to the non union techs that work for a non union company? 



 Communism is the best system if humans were perfect, unfortunately they are not. 

contracts go to him watt gots the best (lowest) bottom line.  it's da biz data drives da biz!

unions ain't communist.  this has bin discussed in this thread befour.  maybe considered to be socialistic, but knot communistic.  it's a technical thing, eye agree, butt yer in wit a technical bunch here.   iffen ya don't wants to be compared to peeple what think like movies, git yer haid out of da old newsreels.
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jjordan

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #544 on: Feb 23, 2007, 09:56 »
I do not even see why there is a discussion  on this.  If there is a union rent a tech and there is a non union tech available who is going to be hired?  What company in their right mind is going to deal with a union for rent a techs in this scenario.  You get a loser and now he is protected if union. I do not think so. 
It's my forum, i started this thread, and gee , It's been a little bit popular. if you don't see, why do you continue to post? Is it really " I don't agree with you, you should view things my way because I'm right and you're wrong" Well this is an open forum, and you're still welcome to post, even if you don't agree.  some clarification seems to be necessary once again. The "Union" being proposed would be for the traveling contract technicians, and decon techs at commercial nuclear power plants. Not DOE, or D & D, or any kinky little cleanup or such. Just commercial! Got it? i see lots of postings about all of this money being made, supposedly being paid, I'm throwing the BS flag! As I've just said if someone in commercial was paying $45.00 an hour. My site would be a ghost town! i hope all of the readers can see through all of the smoke. there are a lot of readers, and i wish they would alll take abot 5 minutes, register and tellus your feelings on the issue. I will be talking to CJ and others from the IBEW the 26th through the 28th, and will see if they think there is enough interest to pursue a campaign. This will be rather costly to the IBEW, (that's where some of your dues money goes! To help others organize. You selfish little s**ts!) OOps did I say that? Yes I did, lots of you only think of yourselves, and that's wrong. together we can make it better for all The slugs and the heavy hitters. It's not the unions job to sort out the non productive, that's managements job. If they don't want to do it, get used to working with people who do les than you. I've accepeted that fact long ago. they blame the union for this too, thats where you get it from, you beleive them. They are lazier than the slugs you speak of, thats why they went into management in the first place. They don't like to work and get dirty! The unions job is to protect the workers rights! All workers rights. Get your facts straight. I've worked with non productive workers too, non union, so that makes me think we need a union, because being non union breeds laziness. It's all over the south! Come on get real!
JJ 8)
« Last Edit: Feb 24, 2007, 01:04 by Nuclear NASCAR »

jjordan

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #545 on: Feb 23, 2007, 10:05 »
Hey Ya'll while your piled up in the house this weekend waiting for your non union outage, in a union plant to start, skim over a little bit of this. now mind you, I don't agree with some of this, but it may open your eyes and minds a little.
JJ ;)

http://blog.aflcio.org/

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #546 on: Feb 24, 2007, 10:15 »
A Company has a right to hire techs from a union or non union company to staff a outage or a DOE job etc..  If a company is all union and one is not what prevents a contract to go to the non union techs that work for a non union company?  Why would a company hire a union company of temporary workers when they can get non union?  Some states are a right to work states and you do not have to join a union to work. What would prevent a company to setup a sattelite main office in a right to work state.  Then if they have to hire you as a union or someone else as non union who do you think they are going to hire.

By the way I base my opinion based on the fact I worked with Union workers not movies.  As I said before there are some good union workers and I got a DOE national award with them.  However the institutionalization of the majority of these workers, laziness, me first attitude, I only do what I want in my humble opinion brings the good ones down and I personally seen it and it made me sick of it, also the good workers who generally had less time in than the seasoned workers.  The good workers were in a hopeless situation that lent it self to the good ones getting laid off.  I think that union lend themselves to this communistic way and there is no way around it.  My Opinion, anyone who is promoting union is looking through rose colored glasses and does not take human nature in account.  Communism is the best system if humans were perfect, unfortunately they are not.  Unions may be perfect but as we know people are not. Some dues also go to those best to promote a certain agenda.  Funny how most of my good workers were in conflict with that agenda and the scum were not.

I'm going to repeat myself, in the vain hope that yo might listen this time.  Read the labor laws.  Do a little research.
Utilities do not base the award of contracts on whether the bidders are union shops or not - unless they have an agreement with their own union to use union contractors.  Those clauses do exist.  So, even in a RTW state, they may have no choice but to give the work to union outfits.

They don't even have to give the work to the lowest bidder.  Especially since the deregulation of the industry, plants have the freedom to choose contractors based on who does the work better, faster, safer, cheaper, who is available, who has experience in the same type of work, ...etc.  Look around and you are not going to see a lot of contracts going to non-union companies if they can't deliver just because they are non-union.

This is my point.  If a non-union HP company can't staff an outage with qualified techs, they are simply not going to get much work.  If a large number (not even near a majority) of the qualified techs go union, the non-union companies will get wise and start signing with the union so they can keep their contracts.  While you are convinced that these companies have the choice - and therefore the upper hand - I have to remind you that they only have the choice that you give them.  If the non-union HP tech didn't exist, or there were too few of them to staff the outages, then the companies wouldn't have a choice.

If this is done right - and there is no reason that it can't be - unionization can be beneficial to ALL parties concerned.  What you have now is absolutely not. 

JJordan has it right.  If management is doing its job, there isn't going to be any foot-dragging or hiding out.  The bosses where I work will "hit you in the ass with a check" if you don't produce.

If you do work around union members, (You don't actually work "with" them as you say.) go ask them what the phrase, "get you your money" means.
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jjordan

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #547 on: Feb 24, 2007, 08:10 »
I'm going to repeat myself, in the vain hope that yo might listen this time.  Read the labor laws.  Do a little research.
Utilities do not base the award of contracts on whether the bidders are union shops or not - unless they have an agreement with their own union to use union contractors.  Those clauses do exist.  So, even in a RTW state, they may have no choice but to give the work to union outfits.

They don't even have to give the work to the lowest bidder.  Especially since the deregulation of the industry, plants have the freedom to choose contractors based on who does the work better, faster, safer, cheaper, who is available, who has experience in the same type of work, ...etc.  Look around and you are not going to see a lot of contracts going to non-union companies if they can't deliver just because they are non-union.

This is my point.  If a non-union HP company can't staff an outage with qualified techs, they are simply not going to get much work.  If a large number (not even near a majority) of the qualified techs go union, the non-union companies will get wise and start signing with the union so they can keep their contracts.  While you are convinced that these companies have the choice - and therefore the upper hand - I have to remind you that they only have the choice that you give them.  If the non-union HP tech didn't exist, or there were too few of them to staff the outages, then the companies wouldn't have a choice.

If this is done right - and there is no reason that it can't be - unionization can be beneficial to ALL parties concerned.  What you have now is absolutely not. 

JJordan has it right.  If management is doing its job, there isn't going to be any foot-dragging or hiding out.  The bosses where I work will "hit you in the ass with a check" if you don't produce.

If you do work around union members, (You don't actually work "with" them as you say.) go ask them what the phrase, "get you your money" means.
Awsome BeerCourt! ;D I couldn't have said it better. It will be done right this time! I don't know what happened or how things went astray last time. I'm still trying to find out, so it's not repeated. I will be the first one to holler foul, if things appear to be going astray. I hold everyone accountable, union, management, and you techs.There is nothing in it for me, i just want to see you all finally get the pay conditions, and benefits you so rightfully deserve. This is no easy feat, and all of you people seeking instant gratification, forget it! This may take a year to organize, and a yaer to ratify a contract. Who knows? It'd be nice if all of the stars aligned and things fell into place, but don't count on it. It'll take a lot of work, and a lot of you will need to help. Nobody is going to do it for you. the IBEW can assist and guide you, but the technicians are really the union, and they have to sign the cards and do a lot of the work. i've talked to a company that is interested in going union, and lots of my freinds are ready to sign cards as soon as I can get them one. This may be the last good oportunity, so we don't want to waste it.
JJ 8)

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Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #548 on: Feb 25, 2007, 01:44 »
I'm hoping this all works out for the techs.  Some of you all know that I haven't worked as a tech in a couple of years.  Organizing will have no direct benefit for me, deciding not to organize will not affect me negatively.
If all goes as I hope it will, I will never be affected.  However, I have seen so many people who have "left" the business only to come back that I will always recognize the potential that I may once again be a contract tech.  For that reason, and because I care about the future of the people in the business, I just want to see the destiny of the techs more under their own control.
Vote yes or no for a union.  Do it for a good reason.  If you don't want part of your paycheck to be controlled by people whose political affiliations are the opposite of yours, that is one reason to say no.  If you truly believe that you and your colleagues are better off with or without a union, you should at least be given the chance to vote your conscience on this subject.
I jumped on this thread because I care, and because the outcome is too important to let it be decided by misinformation.  It is too important to let it just go away without a vote.  An honest vote, either for or against a union, is all I ask.   Both sides have valid reasons for their positions.  Those valid reasons should be weighed and tested in a democratic process.
My last word is this:  You can be for or against unionizing and be honest, sincere, and fair about it - but nobody can be against a vote and claim any of those things.
« Last Edit: Feb 25, 2007, 01:45 by BeerCourt »
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

jjordan

  • Guest
Re: Rent a tech Union debate
« Reply #549 on: Feb 25, 2007, 02:24 »
BeerCourt, you are da man! I'm in the same situation. I've been house for almost 9 years now, and am not directly impacted. But as I've said before"Never say never" If for a strange twist, I should once again decide to go on the road, I would like to have a better wage, and benefits similar to the house people whom I work side by side with. Sometimes even being called upon to supervise, because I'm more knowledgeable, or qualified. I think that should go without saying. If I supervise and or train you, I'm worth more and should be compensated for that. If you want it fair, you have to stand up for the right, nobody's going to just hand it to you.
JJ ;)

 


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