NPUA

[Marlin]

From what I've read over the past few weeks on this thread has truly amazed me. For those who are trying to start a union. Save it. Since I've been in the business (1979), it has been tried and has failed on many a front.

I won't disagree with you entirely, but, there was a pay jump during each attempt to organize whether it was OCAW or IBEW. At least the threat of a union made a difference.

[mostlyharmless]

Strength in numbers. Unions can and do work. Its only when they get to controlling and drag the work down that they become a liability for a company or employer. A union with the purpose of increasing wages by controlling supply of techs will work if enough people get involved and stick with it. But you cannot expect someone to let their family suffer. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to protect yourself or family. Sometimes this means taking a job you would prefer not to take. And yes you will have to drag everyone along. There will allways be those that work and those that don't. Some slugs will benefit from your work. Thats just how it is. Its worth it.
If you can drive up wages without pricing yourself out of work , a fair wage for fair labor, we would all benefit.

[t_tarbox]

When you hire union, you expect certain things; for example:

I need to move a RVCH in a shipping container; I'm probably going to hire (or my contracted rigging and handling company is going to hire..) union ironworkers, perhaps a union crane operator and teamster, depending on the job..I realize my subcontractor is going to pay more for the union support..so I'm going to pay more..why would I do that, when I could hire some non-union trade people and pay less..?

The answer is obvious..skill and quality of work; when I pay for union skills, I know I'm paying for people that can do the job safely and properly. I am not paying more just because a group of people have banded together just to create a higher wage.

The trade unions have apprenticeship programs, skills testing and qualification programs.

A union of RP techs will need to be able to offer something more than "supply and demand" to justify an increase in the cost of the support. There will need to be a proven basis of knowledge and job skills through a qualification and training program.

NRRPT is a good example. As I understand it, an RP Tech that is registered with the NRRPT will command a higher wage than an unregistered tech. Why? It is not supply and demand..it is the fact that the customers is willing to pay more for a verified knowledge and skill set.

IMHO, every union RP tech should either be NRRPT, or be entered into a formal apprenticeship program (regardless of time and experience) that leads to being a registered tech. Now you've got something I'd consider paying an extra 20-30% (or whatever the difference turns out to be) cost for the support.

If I come to you and pay a higher cost over supply and demand, I'm going away as soon as there is a shift in the marketplace. If I come to you and and pay a higher cost for proven knowledge and skills, I'll come back, regardless of the marketplace.

[mostlyharmless]

I wonder how the failure/repair rate compares between cars made in union plants vs nonunion plants. All techs here must take the exams wether NRRPT or not. This is because some NRRPT certified techs have failed the exams. And this is not because the exams are so hard. Certs and training are not definitive indicators of performance. But this is about unions not performance vs certs.
I can agree that if union members can consistently and noticeably perform better this would benefit a company, but their are a lot of quality nonunion techs to select from allready. So there must be some other impetuous for a company to hire union.The only reason manufacturers move to the south is a cheaper nonunion work force. Not that unions dont exist here, they do, but are not as prevalent as in other parts of the country. They move because they have a choice. And I imagine the price of building a car factory is pretty high, so the savings by getting out from under a union must be worth it.
So the union must represent a significant enough portion of the work force that it impacts the entire work force. If enough techs are getting paid better then very few will work for less and soon the hiring companies will accept the higher wages. But there has to be some restraint. You cant keep demanding and demanding and demanding until pressures of the market place drive a company out of business.  In the case of a utility they would just displace the cost on to us, the electricity buying public. In the case of the auto industry, the price of autos goes up until demand goes down, and if demand goes down so goes profits and as go profits so goes the jobs.
The industry allready has minimum standards ,to a degree, imposed on it by federal regs and, I suppose, for self preservation. Though a union suplying techs with a minimum skill set ,reliable and demonstrable, would be great, NRRPT is a bit much. A union could insure that techs meet existing quals and standards of performance. But I think a union is mainly about worker treatment,  so help me get work at a better wage and stay employed. This not only helps me but helps all of us.

[Brett LaVigne]

From what I've read over the past few weeks on this thread has truly amazed me. For those who are trying to start a union. Save it. Since I've been in the business (1979), it has been tried and has failed on many a front.

With that kind of thinking...we would all be running around trying to kill our food and praying for fire. If there is a good reason you don't support it, then fine. Not doing it because nobody else has been successfull yet is a terrible reason not to do something.

[retread]

With that kind of thinking...we would all be running around trying to kill our food and praying for fire. If there is a good reason you don't support it, then fine. Not doing it because nobody else has been successfull yet is a terrible reason not to do something.

Excellent point Brett!  fsennyes seems to be a bit jaded.  Maybe he got hosed in the early 90's when the union bombed?  Until proved wrong, I'll support unionization of road techs.  With the overlapping outages and stagnate wages, something has to change or I won't be able to support my family in the way we've become accustomed.

[Frankie Love]

Boys, my point was how long it's been discussed trying to get unions in as a bargaining chip when all you have to do is use your value as a tech as the bargaining ship. Both of you missed the point. My point was why try to start a union (which by the way, all unions have been in a steady decline over the last twenty years)? Think out of the box. Band together but as something stronger. A stronger faction which could drive a greater point home to the utilities verses using the union label. I would like to see techs, etc., get higher wages because the utilities have been having their way for a long time. My thoughts were to use the fact there is a limited supply of good techs out there and use that as an advantage. Surely all of the "brains" we have out there could figure something out.

[hamsamich]

That makes sense, but I still think the union idea also has value.  Seems short-sighted to me to belittle people for trying to organize to get a better deal, whether union or not.  Plenty of things have failed in the past then eventually got done.  Maybe there is a better idea, but at least someone (NPUA) is putting money where mouth is and giving it a real try.  To that I applaud!

[retread]

Should I assume by your claim of support that you have signed and submitted to the NPUA an Authorization Card?   Yes sir I have!

How did you support them in the ten years you were out of the business?   Why, by working or course!  Nuclear isn't the only business out there.

[Sun Dog]

Just don't forget that contracts are bid in advance, and most of the fall and some spring outage contracts are already bid on and won.

Just don't forget that contracts can be re-negotiated after they have been awarded.  Case in point:

Bartlett Nuclear has received a new Compensation Package for the Fall 2010 Refueling Outage at Fermi Nuclear Power Plant, to include new Pay Rates, Bonus Structure, and Travel Re-Imbursement.

[Rennhack]

Just don't forget that contracts can be re-negotiated after they have been awarded.  Case in point:

Bartlett Nuclear has received a new Compensation Package for the Fall 2010 Refueling Outage at Fermi Nuclear Power Plant, to include new Pay Rates, Bonus Structure, and Travel Reimbursement.

You are correct, they "Can", not "shall".  The utility can elect to NOT renegotiate, as they often do.  The SMART utilities make concessions to get what they want.  Not all utilities are smart.

[HenryBlack]

You are correct, they "Can", not "shall".  The utility can elect to NOT renegotiate, as they often do.  The SMART utilities make concessions to get what they want.  Not all utilities are smart.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[UncaBuffalo]

Okay, I've been avoiding posting on this thread, because I didn't have a dog in the fight.  That may change in the near future, so:



What's the status of the training that NPUA will be providing their members?  I know it is a slow process to set up a decent training program, but that is the one huge advantage a union technician will have over a non-union one...when it happens.
 

Right now, the poor state of contractor training is the worst problem faced by utilities wanting to use rent-a-techs.  Many of them are relying more & more on shared resources, so they have a qualified individual that is ready to hit the ground running.  Even very experienced rent-a-techs have a hard time staying 'trained', if all they get is a couple of days of CBTs each year.
 

Whoever solves this problem...be it NPUA, or some other entity...will have my eternal gratitude.

[Shawnee Man]

You are correct. Training is the key issue.

[Sun Dog]

You are correct. Training is the key an issue.

[Shawnee Man]

And you just proved why anybody can be put into an RP slot. Because the view even from within their own ranks is that training is not the key issue.

Why does operations retrain, recertify, and get the big bonus?

As long as nuclear industry feel its not the big issue, within the ranks not a big issue, then the plants will not and why should they if all they get are monkey see monkey do technicians.

[Sun Dog]

And you just proved why anybody can be put into an RP slot. Because the view even from within their own ranks is that training is not the key issue.

Why does operations retrain, recertify, and get the big bonus?

As long as nuclear industry feel its not the big issue, within the ranks not a big issue, then the plants will not and why should they if all they get are monkey see monkey do technicians.

Anybody can be placed into an RP slot?  Referring to techs as monkeys?  Wow!  

Let me guess, you make a living selling training programs.  I am not minimizing the importance of training.  The lack of training for traveling RP techs is one of many issues that challenge our industry.  Why do you think utilities hire travelers to augment their RP staff during outages?  Because the traveler knows how to cover a job.  They are not hired because they know how to manipulate a decay formula.  No classroom or on-line training will prepare a tech to cover jumpers.

[Shawnee Man]

Anybody can be placed into an RP slot? (Never a kin or girl friend with no previous training) Referring to techs as monkeys (good understanding on your part)?  Wow! 

Let me guess, you make a living selling training programs (No I dont get a pay check from selling training programs).  I am not minimizing the importance of training.  The lack of training for traveling RP techs is one of many issues that challenge our industry.  Why do you think utilities hire travelers to augment their RP staff during outages?  Because the traveler knows how to cover a job (you are saying RP Staff dont know how to cover a job?).  They are not hired because they know how to manipulate a decay formula(only RP Staff know how to do that?).  No classroom or on-line training will prepare a tech to cover jumpers (so you have no prior classroom training, such as mockup training for covering jumpers or divers?).

[RAD-GHOST]

fschip, In reference to your last posting.  The one that ain't there anymore.......

Creating an illusion of progress

After questioning the usefulness and motives of the union, the second imperative of a union avoidance campaign is to humanize the executives in the eyes of workers.  The goal is to portray the company as benevolent, compassionate, and caring.  According to former union buster XXXXX  XXXXXX, managers might learn at seminars ways to market themselves through the alteration of perceptions, such as appearing more open and caring by relaxing certain rules.

Management temporarily submits to the guidance of consultants concerning all communications with employees.  Examples of management's changes in procedures are publicized to all employees. Through surveys and interviews, the union buster develops an insight into who in management the union likes and trusts. These members of management become the new face of the company during the union organizing campaign while the others are coached on masking or overcoming their dislikeable characteristics. Absent such transformation, their visible role is diminished.

Give the workers just enough rope so that they believe they are off the leash, just enough to fool them into scorning the union. The golden rule of management control, as I taught it, was: incorporate dissent, institutionalize it. They would find, I promised my disciples, that dissension won't be half as attractive to the masses once the rebels are sitting down with the bosses...the cunning manager should embrace his workplace rebels. Be grateful for them, I offered, for they are your most effective shield against the union. If you can convince the activists that they'll accomplish more, perhaps have more power, without a union, why, you've won the war.

Managers or owners may be asked to visit worksites and exchange jokes, gossip, and laughter with workers. The theme of company-as-family prevails, with the union portrayed as an upstart outsider. Only after a union organizing drive is defeated, might company executives revert to their previous conduct.

RG

[Jr8black3]

Monkeys? Sun you just lost my vote for anything, there are some folks out there that are so damn good and trying to teach others, and you have the the nerve to call them Monkeys.. is wrong with you? You better hope I never cross paths with you..If you think there are not (Monkeys) out there trying to help folks your wrong. I try anytime I can to get a person ahead..

I totally smite you for your comment. Your somebody that screwed up in their past and your trying to blame everybody..

[Sun Dog]

Monkeys? Sun you just lost my vote for anything, there are some folks out there that are so damn good and trying to teach others, and you have the the nerve to call them Monkeys.. is wrong with you? You better hope I never cross paths with you..If you think there are not (Monkeys) out there trying to help folks your wrong. I try anytime I can to get a person ahead..

I totally smite you for your comment. Your somebody that screwed up in their past and your trying to blame everybody..

What are you talking about?  I never referred to RP Techs as monkeys.  I did make note that Shawnee Man related RP techs to monkeys, as in monkey see, monkey do.  Jr, you are upset at the wrong person.

[UncaBuffalo]

...I am not minimizing the importance of training.  The lack of training for traveling RP techs is one of many issues that challenge our industry.  Why do you think utilities hire travelers to augment their RP staff during outages?  Because the traveler knows how to cover a job.  They are not hired because they know how to manipulate a decay formula.  No classroom or on-line training will prepare a tech to cover jumpers.

I totally agree with you that we have to be brought in to beef up the job coverage on the 'heavy' jobs.  No one that has been doing routines for 18 months is going to be on their 'A' game...the quality rent-a-tech will always be more prepared for the realities of hot work in their area of expertise.

Unfortunately, we (as rent-a-techs) tend to focus ONLY on our area of expertise.  I'd need several days to get up to speed on covering a jumper...I've been stuck up on the refuel floor for 15 years now.  Heck, are they even USING jumpers any more?  I thought it'd be 99% robotics by now?

And a word in defense of 'decay-formula-and-it's-ilk' training.  Yes, I can still pass the NU or DOE core if I study the day before.  But wouldn't it be nice to have some continuing training that kept me up-to-date on the theory AND the practical?  I've been sitting in a house job the past couple of years and it reminded me just how little training I HAD gotten (on the road) since sites started bringing the contractors in the day before the outage.  Someone...either the utilities, or NPUA, or XXX...is going to have to start training the rent-a-techs again.  Or this house-of-cards is going to fall over.

JMO

[mostlyharmless]

The best way to stay trained is to work a lot. If you don't use it you lose it. Its true. I have covered steam jenny work,divers,cavity,refuel floor,rerack,TRU and on and on. I have participated in the mock up of jumping jennies( when I jumped) and TRU glove box work. I believe between work training is beyond the scope of a union.
A long time ago when I had long hair and played in rock and roll bands I ran an add in the local paper looking for a lead guitarist. After auditioning billions of musicions we finally settled on someone we felt comfortable with. One guy called and told me he was union and had to have union scale and paid rehearsals. I said good luck but no thank you. So
Where would the union build the training facility and who would do the training? Would we get travel pay to the facility? Would we get paid while we trained? Would there be enough bananas to go around? The union cannot be all things to all techs. There are many challenges facing techs both on the road and off. A union could help, mainly with the money.
I'm sorry,but monkeys? Would that be old world,new world,chimps,orangs,or maybe silver backs for fully mature techs? I want to at least be an orangutan.
Like many on this site I spent many years(~21) learning how to do my job. Allmost all on the job. A little good sense on my part and a whole lot of experience passed on to me from other more experience techs. How can a union address this?
Besides, I could get the termites out of the ant hill much quicker than a monkey and I could save you a lot of dose doing cavity work.

[Old HP]

Training?  When was the last time anyone worked a PWR that actually included contract HPs in any kind of mock up training (especially with the actual workers involved.  ECT, Incores, transfer canal work, maybe even SGRs, etc ?
How about BWRs and CRDs, pulling incore intrumentation ?
It was VERY common 20 to 30 years ago, I have seen very little since then.
I am curious as I have only worked at 30 or so sites maybe I am at the wrong plants.
If the utilities are not willing to invest in training at their site because of the cost how will a union make it a reality.
Like everyone else I am looking for the answers to make this a better "Profession" than where we are now.

[Rennhack]

fschip, In reference to your last posting.  The one that ain't there anymore.......

fschip must have deleted it, because it's not in the moderation log, and only Tom and I can delete anything.