Really thinking of taking NLO over SRO

[deadspace1399]

Hello all on nukeworker!
I am a nuke MM1/SS EWS/EOOW/EDPO/EDO with 9.6 years and the Bachelors of Nuclear Engineering Tech. from Excelsior College approaching my EAOS at the end of May.
I am an instructor here at Ballston Spa, NY and am ready to move on to the big leagues of civilian power.

I have researched this great site for awhile looking at the various posts from many, many, many guys/gals just like me who are getting out and ask the typical questions of pay and for the most part everyone is interested in instant SRO.

For myself, however, I have looked through the posts and heeded the warnings of all posters on the site, especially Broadzilla for the instant SRO topic.

I am slated next week for Shearan Harris Nuclear 1 in North Carolina for the POSS exam/interview for a NLO position.
Exelon would like me at the same time for an interview for instant SRO for Oyster Creek NJ.  
Also TVA would like to interview me for instant SRO for Sequoyah 1/2 at the end of April.

NLO job starts at 55,000$ initially which is a bit of a pay cut from the navy as I understand overtime begins about a year after qualifications and eventually I would start making more money with overtime, not exactly sure how much as I have read some posts that state typically 80K+

TVA has stated I would start at 80K and then that would jump to 120K if successful through the program.

Exelon flashed the most money at 105K starting out until success(A big IF I know).  The HR lady for Exelon stated they have an 80% success rate but I don't trust any of that....I wonder about the quality of the TVA and Exelon SRO training programs....

I have read many people state that if offered SRO just take it.  But my mindset is that this is my professional career outside of the Navy and I want to make it the best I can.  
My concerns with Exelon if I were to take that path are the cost of living in NJ, the fact that Oyster Creek is a BWR vice PWR, and the age of the facility and the quality of the training program.  
My concerns with TVA are the quality of the training program and well I work with plenty of civilians/officers here on the Kesselring site who qualify EOOW are placed in an elevated position above me and yet have no clue of how to run equipment outside of using the announcing circuit to order people to start equipment.  I get a bit resentful to that fact(I also despise Navy "leadership" but that is a separate issue) So I thought that the quality of product for a NLO to SRO would be much better and I would perhaps have more people appreciate the fact that I started from the entry level position and worked my way up.

I am not afraid to put the time in at work and work hard for SRO, but I feel that hands down the NLO guy in SRO quals clearly has the advantage no matter what.  But I am also concerned about how long it would take to get into SRO quals as an NLO, if it took me 5 years to get into RO because of Union/Seniority and then maybe another 5 years to get into SRO after that it makes me wonder what the instant SRO time line would be like in comparison.  

So I like warm weather, I am not a big fan of snow, I've been stationed up here in the North east virtually all of my career and the cost of living in North Carolina and Tennessee is better than the north east.  

So of the three choices what would any of you choose?  I am leaning toward the NLO route for fear of not passing the license tests for SRO and being a better SRO overall.

I have to let Exelon and Progress energy know what I intend by friday.  Thanks for any help!

Eirik

[JustinHEMI05]

I say go for SRO if offered.

The old adage of an "SRO born from NLOs" is better, is false. Its a stigma that only SOME old timers hold, but that attitude is changing in the industry as they put out to pasture. Sometimes its true, sometimes its not. It all depends on the person, and that is the bottom line. There are instant SROs that are great, there are NLO born SROs that are bad, vice versa. And if you think an instant SRO is the same as what you described as someone just shouting orders over the 2mc, you are WAY off course. With today's SRO training programs, the NLO to SRO path is unnecessary. In days gone by when license class was only 9 months, relying heavily on your experience as an NLO, it was probably true. But not anymore.

No matter what you do, much of the training you do will be self taught. So, only you can answer for yourself whether or not you can make it through an instant SRO program. Its a lot of long study hours, often at the sacrifice of family time. That will still hold true even if you go up for a license from NLO. Then after training, you have to actually learn the job of sitting in a room pushing paper. It doesn't take being an NLO-RO-SRO to do that.

And the HR at Exelon didn't lie. They have a pretty good track record, compared to the rest of the industry. Probably because Exelon seems to hire the most instant SROs. At my plant, Peach Bottom, we put up 12/13 people and all 12 got licenses.

I qualify my remarks by having been through an instant SRO program at Exelon and having recently received my license. I used to buy into the fact that I am not born from NLOs, that I am somehow an inferior SRO, but that is patently false. Add to that the fact that the NLOs getting their licenses in my class said that their NLO experience in no way helped them in class. It does help them with interfacing with other organizations faster, but you get that in like 2 weeks sitting in the room after you get your license.

Good luck to you. Keep us posted.

[Fermi2]

"TVA has stated I would start at 80K and then that would jump to 120K if successful through the program."

Not true, more like 85 to 95K.

[Fermi2]

 SROs who have been NLOs first are as a rule better at being an SRO than an instant, after NLO-RO Upgrades I prefer individuals who have been Licensed Elsewhere then those who have been engineers at the plant. That is not an old timer adage.
 Put it this way, I've been a Shift Manager for 12 years now. I've had both types work for me and I know exactly which type I prefer working on my group. I know exactly which groups I end up having to babysit and which I'm comfortable leaving in charge when I'm out in the plant, also which groups have caused more major and minor plant events and more headaches for me. It's NOT the SROs that qualified as NLOs.

[JustinHEMI05]

SROs who have been NLOs first are as a rule better at being an SRO than an instant, after NLO-RO Upgrades I prefer individuals who have been Licensed Elsewhere then those who have been engineers at the plant. That is not an old timer adage.
 Put it this way, I've been a Shift Manager for 12 years now. I've had both types work for me and I know exactly which type I prefer working on my group. I know exactly which groups I end up having to babysit and which I'm comfortable leaving in charge when I'm out in the plant, also which groups have caused more major and minor plant events and more headaches for me. It's NOT the SROs that qualified as NLOs.

Like I said, its going to come down to the individual. In your experience, that is what you saw, so be it. I don't disagree that you have to keep an eye on engineers with licenses.  I am just saying that so far, in my experience, an NLO born SRO doesn't necessarily make a good SRO, and being and instant doesn't necessarily make a bad SRO. I have just decided to stop discouraging people from instant SRO based on what I have seen thus far.

And by old timers, I am talking about the old timers at my plant. I should have clarified that. There were a few that didn't like instants, no matter what. That attitude is changing.

[Fermi2]

Ok, I agree with you on the later. I believe everyone should try for the best paying position possible.

It's not the engineers that frighten me to death though. It's the instants out of the Navy. As a rule they aren't smart enough to understand when they are in trouble, and usually are too stubborn to admit it, they also tend to try to delegate supervision upwards. They're flat out scary.

One thing the old timers tend to be less proficient at is the modern view of enforcing, coaching, and documenting behaviours. They are a far better at operating the plant and for the most part are at least willing to learn the softer skills. I prefer them over an Instant who has no idea the plant is on the verge of going to hell so he retreats to the soft stuff.

If another really bad thing happens in this industry it will be due to the actions of a fresh out of the Navy instant. The warning signs, ie increased NRC Events and the like are already there.

[JustinHEMI05]

Ok, I agree with you on the later. I believe everyone should try for the best paying position possible.

It's not the engineers that frighten me to death though. It's the instants out of the Navy. As a rule they aren't smart enough to understand when they are in trouble, and usually are too stubborn to admit it, they also tend to try to delegate supervision upwards. They're flat out scary.

One thing the old timers tend to be less proficient at is the modern view of enforcing, coaching, and documenting behaviours. They are a far better at operating the plant and for the most part are at least willing to learn the softer skills. I prefer them over an Instant who has no idea the plant is on the verge of going to hell so he retreats to the soft stuff.

If another really bad thing happens in this industry it will be due to the actions of a fresh out of the Navy instant. The warning signs, ie increased NRC Events and the like are already there.

Hmmm I guess we just have different types of navy instants. At my plant, a large population of the SROs are Navy instants, and some of them are the best SROs at the plant. There are 1 or 2 that aren't doing so hot, but they also came from one box to another, if you catch my drift. The guys that turned some valves for a living, are doing quite well.

[deadspace1399]

Well thanks for the input...I DO NOT WANT TO BE the Navy instant who is so stubborn and retarded that he ruins nuclear power again for America...that would be the worse case scenario. 
I didn't mean any disrespect by saying that some people I work with at site do nothing but bark orders over the 2MC, as a comparison to everyone....BUT I do have to say quite a few really aren't aware of the timing and pain to get certain things done. 
I would go into any SRO position as humble and know I know nothing.....I know enough to get a foot in the door and nothing more....
I would think that the oyster creek position would be a more difficult path because of the BWR to PWR transition....
TVA is a PWR and so is Shearan Harris....
I am trying to arrange for Exelon to interview me the 22nd and 23rd even though Harris and Oyster Creek both want the 15th and 16th to keep my options open....

Justin your words on the transition if I choose that path are encouraging...but yes Broadzilla I heed your experience and I want to be a solid leader if I become a supervisor

Its funny at work....there are two LT's and a civilian who keep telling me they all have 'friends' who have done or doing SRO and that its 'just like EOOW'...makes me laugh with all the posts on here I have read.....

[JustinHEMI05]

That is the attitude I had when I got into the industry... that of being humble and not under any illusions that I knew what I was doing. Like you said, foot in the door. That attitude has served me well thus far.

As far as BWR to PWR, I can comment on that as well, since I did sit in class for 6 months at a PWR.

Trust me, even though navy nukes are PWRs, they are vastly different than commercial PWRs. Sure, reactor power still follows steam demand, but that is where the similarities end. In the most basic of terms, the low enrichment of a commercial nuke's fuel changes how the plant operates on a grand scale.

As far as BWR, man, they are just fun! I was nervous about coming to a BWR too, but they are a bit easier, IMO, than a PWR. Looking back now, I don't think I want to ever go back to a PWR. In the simulator, things just seem to be much more dynamic and require much more operator interaction than the PWR I was at. I thrive on that though, and may not necessarily be something someone else is looking for.

So that said, I wouldn't sweat that transition too much. Many of us have made it, so can you.

As far as your LT's thinking EOOW is the same, that just shows how uninformed the Navy is about what its really like. My buddy and I from prototype laugh because when we were getting out, we used to think; "How hard can it be? Its just flow charts and multiple choice questions."   Needless to say, we were WAY off. Tell your LTs we passed EOOW level literally week 1 in the simulator.

By the way, I have a sneaking suspicion that the navy nukes Broadzilla refers to are of the type your are talking about with your LTs. In that case, I would agree with him. I could be wrong though.

[Neutron_Herder]

I would think that the oyster creek position would be a more difficult path because of the BWR to PWR transition....

Like Justin said, even a PWR on the outside isn't the same as in the Navy.  BWR's are different, but not so different that you can't learn it.

There are some things to look at besides pay for these positions...  Look at the benefits each company offers (401(k), etc.).  Also look closely at the cost of living in the area you're going to.  Most of all, don't forget that every penny of what you make in your new job is taxable!!  That makes a huge difference in what you take home.  If you haven't done it yet there's a pay calculator on the NPC web site that will correlate your Navy pay to what you'd have to make on the outside.  It assumes you use the exchange and commissary exclusively, (and a couple of other bad assumptions) but it can give you a really good idea of how much you need to make to break even.

Good luck!

[xro]

pm me for another take on Oyster Creek and NLO vs RO.

[deadspace1399]

Well the 105,000$ would certainly be more than I make in the navy hands down...The cost of living is pricey in the north east as compared to the south, but I've lived in NY for the last 4 years so I think anything else will be a step up in that area....

xro: Thanks for your adivce!

[ranger2]

Hmmm I guess we just have different types of navy instants. At my plant, a large population of the SROs are Navy instants, and some of them are the best SROs at the plant. There are 1 or 2 that aren't doing so hot, but they also came from one box to another, if you catch my drift. The guys that turned some valves for a living, are doing quite well.

Similar experience here. I can count the number of non-instant SROs here on one hand. Nevertheless, the plant has managed to stay INPO 1 for the past 10 years. I work with good AND less good SROs of both flavors.

I used to hear similar arguments in the navy regarding prior-enlisted JOs vs non-priors. Truly, some of the best JOs I've encountered were prior-enlisted; however, so was the single worst JO.

[deadspace1399]

That is an excellent point...I know two awesome prior enlisted JO's and I know two terrible ones.....something to think about

[ranger2]

Another way of looking at it:

It is less important to know everything than it is to recognize what you don't know (and to work to find the answer or ask the right questions).

[co60slr]

As far as your LT's thinking EOOW is the same, that just shows how uninformed the Navy is about what its really like. My buddy and I from prototype laugh because when we were getting out, we used to think; "How hard can it be? Its just flow charts and multiple choice questions."   Needless to say, we were WAY off. Tell your LTs we passed EOOW level literally week 1 in the simulator.

By the way, I have a sneaking suspicion that the navy nukes Broadzilla refers to are of the type your are talking about with your LTs. In that case, I would agree with him. I could be wrong though.

Let's not forget about 10CFR50.54(x) and (y).   No "LARs" in Commercial.  Also, EOOW/EDO are not qualified to handle fuel.   However, "they" have us on being able to take their submarine reactor to the North Pole and back.

More importantly though, my biggest education is the difference in "command and control", accountability, authority, and responsibility of the Commercial SRO as compared to an EOOW.  

We were once naive too.   That's how and why we can make a difference in this Forum.   ;-)

Co60

[ranger2]

IMHO, time at the plant, as opposed to your path of progression, is what makes you a wiser SRO. An instant who earned his license 20 years ago has more plant OPEX to draw upon than an NLO jumping to management after 3 years.

[deadspace1399]

I notified Exelon I will do the interview and I am set to be there(NJ) April 15/16.  I am to take the BMST and then interview...
I figure its worth a shot and I know that if accepted I would put the time in to make sure I learn things the best I can....
I guess my question to BZ is are you referring to the newly Licensed Navy Instant SRO's or just the guys in training?
I know as an instructor it can get annoying and seem that a person is doomed to failure as they stumble through training, but given time I have seen even people I didn't think could do well actual perform very good.
I already know that I would be the new guy and even though I would try and minimize error it will still come and I just have to learn from it...
I have already bought the two prints books that you BZ recommended for SRO's in training to utilize for prints from Amazon.com and even though I have had exposure to electrical prints for tagouts and digital IC circuits for college I can certainly improve.
So now to review for the BMST exam and practice answers to questions that I might be asked in an interview...I have heeded your warnings about references BZ, I will walk into the interview prepared to give many a reference with email and phone numbers.
Any more advice is helpful!
Thanks!

[thenuttyneutron]

I am mostly a lurker on this website.  I have to say, I really hate that bug running around on my screen.

Good luck on your interview.

[deadspace1399]

Thanks!  I figured the bug might annoy someone

Still a bit nervous and I am wondering after the interview of the 15/16th how long for a turnaround on letting me know if I am hired or not...the class up period is June 1st, So I was hoping it would only take one week for a thumbs up or down.  BUT I know HR people can sometimes have you slip through the cracks so I figured I would be calling frequently for follow up.

I know the area isn't the most preferred by most people, I know that the plant is older and so I am hoping that if these things detour people from really wanting that area that plays out in my favor....

[tr]

As far as Exelon HR, they seem to be quick (at least in engineering).  A friend saw a position on Monster, and was literally interviewed, hired, moved, and connected to their computer system within about 3 weeks.

[Laundry Man]

Make sure you check out the area around Oyster.  Nice to be near the water but it is very expensive to live there.  How do I know?  Was house there, (not in Ops) loved the area but to pricey to make it worth it.
LM

[deadspace1399]

Well I just finished the leadership assessment, the interview and the BMST.  I think all went well but you never know....during my interview they asked if I had any other offers or interviews and I explained what I have available and they re-assured me that I would have an answer within a week (by next friday) at the latest and that if I don't I should be calling.  So that made me feel encouraged a bit, BUT I shall wait and see. 

I thought the leadership assessment was fun, I did barely get everything done and I felt great at the end of the day because I really took charge during one of the meetings we held with the other candidates and I drove the meeting to were it was intended to go.

The interview seemed fine and I think the answers I provided were in a good 'STAR' format and the panel and myself were comfortable enough to joke around a little bit.

The BMST was fine, accept the proctor lady wouldn't let me go to the bathroom....for the last hour I had to pee really bad and it made concentration a little bit more difficult.  I finished my test and handed it to her and she still said I couldn't go pee until the three hours was up.  So I think it went well enough with the test, the math without a calculator is time consuming so I went through the test and answered the easier questions then went back and began all the long division and multiplication questions.

I am a bit nervous because I really decided I want to do this and do my best at it.......but we shall see....

[JustinHEMI05]

Good luck and keep us posted!!!

[deadspace1399]

The anticipation is killing me...........if only friday would come sooner!
I really want to show em what I got for SRO........