Rent a tech Union debate

[UncaBuffalo]

...the fence sitters should choose and decide how they want to live...

I'm not sure whether I agree with this...or not...   

[Austria]

Management can get rid of those non-union pukes in a heart beat. no representation, no grievance process- just DFR.  Its a long drawn out process with a union guy and they usually get to stay for another chance.

I have seen plenty of Union Craft DFR'd for a screw up. And it didn't always have to be something bad, either. They were travellers and had no more of a second chance than an HP. Actually, in my experience at least; road techs often get more 2nd chances than the union craft guys, even if the road techs are non-union. Perhaps that is the result of being able to call the hall and get another guy sent right over. Makes it easier to DFR some poor guy to make an example out of him.

Towards the end of an outage I've always heard more union craft complaining about how they are getting laid off. And with good reason. Getting turned around practically at the gate at beginning of shift....4 hour notice if they are really lucky....meanwhile us HP types are passing lists around the break rom of when we would LIKE to leave or how long we WANT to stay. I know we don't always get our choice....but there have been lottsa times we were GIVEN a choice. Union plant or not.

I've worked both Union and non-Union plants. Even have my IBEW card (somewhere around here) from NJ. Personally I haven't seen any real benefit as a road tech from being union. Nor have I seen any comparative disadvantages being non-union. I was at Perry years ago when the local IBEW was trying to get HP's interested in organizing and from what little I saw of the proposed contract we would have made LESS money (before subtracting dues) had we gone with the union. In all fairness, that was a poorly organized effort and I truly believe the local hall at the time was more interested in getting more members to fund a better Christmas party for the local members than they cared about road techs.

Guess all this hot air just puts me 'on the fence'. 

[RADBASTARD]

Hey Bil

Why be an engineer when ya can be a CEO?  I would never settle on being just an engineer (mo money, mo money) 

                                                                                Hey Biloxi why be  a  SR HP when you can be an RPM or RSO and you know what I mean.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
[/quote

[SloGlo]

As for bringing in "kids", they would still have to complete training and be qualified prior to performing SR level tasks. 

this takes about an extra 3 days prior to outage to run an entire crew thru the jpm.  bin der, dun dat.

[jjordan]

I am not in management, but to change the definition of what an HP is, you have to change the ANSI Standard... not impossible, but not at all likely to change it to make it less stringent. The chance of being replaced by 'a bunch of kids' is nil. Just what we need in a serious discussion is scare tactics. JJ lost all of his credibility in my mind just by bringing that one up. What a shame.

Rodger,
I'm sorry that you don't think my argument is credible. Is it because you don't agree, or think it can't or won't happen? We hada meeting today with supervision to do exactly what I said they were going to do. We are going to partner with several Community, Jr. and 4 year colleges to train the kids I was telling you were comming. The scary part to everyone should be, we are probably one of the last to get untracked. Their are some already in the pipeline. Not everyone was asleep at the wheel. GE is going to start their 3rd class shortly. Duke power already has a program going. Look at the tops of the pages here. Linn tech has a program going, and there are more. The colleges we talked to are foaming at the mouth to start. Why? Lots of federal money? Homeland security, you tax dollars at work. I'm just a dumb ass knuckle dragger, so I'll let you all tell me how they get ANSI qualified. If you just go to school first and get your degree in Applied Health Physics in 2 yrsThis doesn't count for 2 years working in your proffesion. I believe they get a little credit, you can tell me how much, but it;s a moot point. They will be getting 2 years credit in 2 years, because as a Co Op student they will be actually working as they go to school, and will be taking part of their college curriculum on site. Probably given by some of our instructors. Now doesn't 2 years of time make them 18.1 qualified? Better yet, while I'm training them to replace you all. They do ALLof the work, and I just supervise them, and then sign behind them! I asked for at least 12. At that rate we won't need many contractors in say about 5 years or so. Your only saving grace will be, the utilities are cheap and they won't pay someone year round. So there will always be some contractors. But they're going to flood the market and drive down your wages. Oh and I know that as soon as I train all of your youngins to replace me, they're going to try to kick me to the curb as well. I'm a realist. What am I going to do? I'm getting me a union, so my last 15 years or so are a bit more lucrative than all of the fence sitters. If you snooze we all loose!

[jjordan]

As for bringing in "kids", they would still have to complete training and be qualified prior to performing SR level tasks. 

It won't take any longer than anyone else! All they need is my signature behind theirs, and they can do anything I can! I can do this while they're still redbadged if we want. Only things they have to do is pass GET and basic rad worker, and the P test! Last one is the tuff one for the kids!
Sorry,
JJ

[RDTroja]

Anyone that is worried about training new JUNIOR techs (which is exactly what you are talking about) needs to get out of this business. We have already had threads bemoaning the lack of new techs coming in to replace us and how hard it is going to be for us to move on to bigger and better things. We NEED juniors. As for replacing us, that is what eventually happens. Any utility foolish enough to let new juniors loose to do senior level work with nothing but a signature of a qualified senior deserves what they will get. I say bring them on. If you are afraid of them, get out of the way.

[Mike_Koehler]

Right on the money as usual Roger......... I couldn't put it better myself.

Mike

[ramdog_1]

seems to got away from Union stuff.
I was in a union for 11 years house it was ok but as will I was at dresdon in the old days. who recalls the union house control points and our control pionts?
plus you can not use the bathrooms or lunch rooms.
I am at a amrem site now and we can not even talk to a house person for fear of being run off.
like they say it is there sand box.
you want bennys will you need to get real full time spot somewhere.
somethings would be nice but you never get 20 hp techs to go the same path.

[jjordan]

I sincerely doubt that a signature imparts the years of experience and the skillset to implement that experience, but you already knew that!
If the client (or utility) wants to take these excursions into risk management (i.e. operating cost benefit vs liability costs risk), and they lose that gamble, they deserve all the costs incurred when they lose,....that's just part of the downside to capitalism in a litigious society,....
but we're all big boys and grown ups, and we have to pay up when we screw up,.....

Maybe I should have said under my direct supervision for all of the naysayers that are twisting the intent of my posts. I realize that by signing behind someone (trainee0 I am assumiong full liability for the actions of said person. It's not any more liability for the utility than having me do it myself, I'm still liable, and so are they.I train people everyday, and don't have a problem with it. Yes we need Jrs, but at a controlled rate, too many at onec makes it tough to find work. Unions help with that.They also help with training. This was a big topic for disscusion at the Nuclear conference in Vegas last year. The union has apprenticeship programs and partners with colleges at some sites. They do a lot of beneficial things. I'm sorry that people get treated badly at some sites. It may not have anything to do with the union, might just be the people there. But if the contractors were also union, maybe the house people wouldn't feel as threatened ,and or would feel a commonality with you.
Just a Thought,
JJ

[SloGlo]

I sincerely doubt that a signature imparts the years of experience and the skillset to implement that experience, .....

like alphadude sayed a cupla days ago..

"those not meeting the criteria for ANSI hp (SR) can still work at SR pay grade under the JPM."

these are not scare tactics, or phrases to intimidate.  they are our world in a sentence.   same as when i posted about the change in 3.1 by ansi.  there are alot of hpt reading these pages who woodent have gone past the 18.1 level if it hadn't been for that change.  there are alot of very good 18.1 who get upgraded to 3.1 responsiblility levels because it can be done.  this is life.  yes, jr hpt are needed.  yes, power plant hp coverage needs to be increased.  not to worry.  but, if 500 people are trained for 50 house slots, where do the balance go?  what happens to the pay rates when the active job seekers increase by 15%?  alot of people remember the wage stagnation in the 80s.  which happened to occur when lots of tmi trained techs hit the road along with the normal influx of peeple (shipyards, navy, etc.).  none of those people would have had impact on the wages if it hadn't been for the change in the ansi 3.1 rating.  yet, kin ya remember what did happen?
to paraphase churchill, iffen ya don't remember history, you will repeat it.

[jjordan]

like alphadude sayed a cupla days ago..

"those not meeting the criteria for ANSI hp (SR) can still work at SR pay grade under the JPM."

these are not scare tactics, or phrases to intimidate.  they are our world in a sentence.   same as when i posted about the change in 3.1 by ansi.  there are alot of hpt reading these pages who woodent have gone past the 18.1 level if it hadn't been for that change.  there are alot of very good 18.1 who get upgraded to 3.1 responsiblility levels because it can be done.  this is life.  yes, jr hpt are needed.  yes, power plant hp coverage needs to be increased.  not to worry.  but, if 500 people are trained for 50 house slots, where do the balance go?  what happens to the pay rates when the active job seekers increase by 15%?  alot of people remember the wage stagnation in the 80s.  which happened to occur when lots of tmi trained techs hit the road along with the normal influx of peeple (shipyards, navy, etc.).  none of those people would have had impact on the wages if it hadn't been for the change in the ansi 3.1 rating.  yet, kin ya remember what did happen?
to paraphase churchill, iffen ya don't remember history, you will repeat it.

Exactly Sloglo,
This is the point I'm trying to make. We are negotiating with several colleges to bring in techs. Lets say we cut a deal with just 1. We have 4 sites and 5 reactors. Each PGn site picks up say 5 people a year. We need help, and we also have 4 reactors on the drawing board, so we might go to thoose levels. Duke, Entergy , FPL, Dominion, AmGen Constellation, etc. All do the same. We are all similar, and the egos running the show, don't want to be left out. So every year for say just 3 years the utilities bring in about 150-200 newbies, where are you at? You've just about doubled the number of thechs working commercial. Then the new Clinton (EWWWW!) administation cancels all of the incentives for new nukes. No utility will touch it without Fed assistance. They all have big ego's but little stones! Where you all at now? Wages will stagnate and or decline due to a glut of workers. (supply and demand) Get rid of the older more expensive ones when possible, and go with the ones that will work for peanuts every time!
Another Thought,
JJ

[Imaginos]

Wages will stagnate and or decline due to a glut of workers. (supply and demand) Get rid of the older more expensive ones when possible, and go with the ones that will work for peanuts every time!
Another Thought,
JJ

This school of thought assumes that the youngster with "three years of experience, one of which should be related technical training" is equal to the geezer who's been covering generator or cavity work, shooting resin, or shipping radioactive material down our nation's highways for twenty-five years. I suspect even the bean counters are likely not that naive.

[SloGlo]

This school of thought assumes that the youngster with "three years of experience, one of which should be related technical training" is equal to the geezer who's been covering generator or cavity work, shooting resin, or shipping radioactive material down our nation's highways for twenty-five years. I suspect even the bean counters are likely not that naive.

bean counters are not naive.  they go by the rules and the rules govern their criteria for everything, whether it's nuclear techinicans or widgets.  if da rules say "three years of experience, one of which should be related technical training", they will put in a call for people with three years of experience and not have anything in their criteria for techincal training.  why?  because the technical training clause is a "should" not a "shall" and therefour duzant have to be a criteria to be fulfilled.

[jjordan]

This school of thought assumes that the youngster with "three years of experience, one of which should be related technical training" is equal to the geezer who's been covering generator or cavity work, shooting resin, or shipping radioactive material down our nation's highways for twenty-five years. I suspect even the bean counters are likely not that naive.

Like SloGlo said "bean counters aren't niave. They do what is required, strictly by the book. Black and White. Beans = $$$'s. Their job is to make as many beans for the company as possible. Without breaking any rules or laws. If the contract says > 3 yrs, then 3 yrs + 1 day fills the bill. 25 years of bustin your but, and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee. Now if you're willing to work for the same wages as the newbies, then maybe your experience may get you the nod. But wait, did the contract say Associate degree prefered? Lots do, and I don't have one, do all of you? Also, sometimes both then and now, it's all a timing thing. Whoever rings the bell first wins the prize. Unions can controll a bit of this, if you negotiate this into your contract.
JJ

[Imaginos]

Okay, we (Sloglo, JJ and myself) agree that the bean counters are not naive. With that in mind, we may or may not agree that the powers that be recognize the vast amount of knowledge and experience which resides within most of the "high dollar" geezers. But your implication, JJ, seems to be that when all these newbies in the pipeline hit the field wages will plummet. If we entertain the notion that that will happen, what then? Folks have been leaving this business in droves for a couple decades. If that trend picks up and the industry is left with nothing but the "3 yrs. + 1 day" techs, will the radiation protection programs remain intact? And if not, what then?

[SloGlo]

will the radiation protection programs remain intact?

define "intact".  iffen ya mean 'unchanged', then eye wood say no.  iffen yinz mean 'in place', then eye wood say yes.  radiation protection programs are mandatory.  however, they do adapt to the workplace environment.  ask ennybuddy that did an outage in da 80s and one last year.  radpro programs have changed, 'n will continue to do so.

[jjordan]

I had to self check, I said " stagnate or decline" not plummet. It will be a gradual change,as previously stated, it does take 3 yrs to grow a senior.As the colleges start cranking them out, there may become another glut of techs, and securing employment may become very competitive again. I remeber having to do a lot of phone sex in my early years to find a low paying job, somewhere I really didn't want to go. But hey as some people have said, i had bills to pay! History!!! I didn't like it then, and I damn sure won't like it now! The industry will evolve and survive, it has to.What you choose to do is up to you all. You can leave and find other employment. for some this is all they know how to do. Some like myself, have choosen this career, because we enjoy the challenges it offers. i can make a good living in the real world, but I like what I do. Sometimes it's a bit frustraiting, but it has its rewards.You all have a window of opportunity here, much better than when we made the last attempt. It'll eventually pass, and once it's gone, it may be quite a while before another opportunity presebts itself. Probably not in yours or my working lifetime. Choose wisely grasshopper!
JJ

[Imaginos]

Sloglo - a better way to express my thought would have been "will the integrity of the RP programs remain intact?" As in, will the money saved per technician be worth the probable increase in "shots-on-goal" regarding citable errors due to lack of experience?

JJ - Regarding wages, let's pretend I wrote "will become less in amount" instead of "will drop sharply or abruptly."   

[jjordan]

Sloglo - a better way to express my thought would have been "will the integrity of the RP programs remain intact?" As in, will the money saved per technician be worth the probable increase in "shots-on-goal" regarding citable errors due to lack of experience?

JJ - Regarding wages, let's pretend I wrote "will become less in amount" instead of "will drop sharply or abruptly."   

No Problem! Karma to you! To answer your question to SloGlo. The integrity will suffer. Remember when we went from man to man coverage, to zone coverage? It suffered then, but they took the chance. Then how about when we implemented "remote monitoring" more with less again. I don't think this hurt the integrity as much as the first, but it showed a trend, they will accept risk to save a buck! "Aceptable Risk" is a different department! Loss Prevention ie: Legal. Unions also try to contol the elimination of jobs.
JJ

[RAD-GHOST]

Looks like all of those theories will be tested this season. 

The Commercial Industry work force has increased by about 150 technicians, since October 2006.  With the final site closure of Fernald and the reduction of manpower at several other DOE facilities, the Commercial Industry Shortage is finally over.  This one is liable to play out like one of those old war movies at the local pub!  Commercial vs. DOE techs, let the brawling begin!

That old standard of DOE time, equating to only six months of commercial experience is now out the window!

Pass the NEU test and your as good as gold, (study guide included)!
Reduced wages (due to lack of commercial experience), but not to worry, we're paying Per Diem!

JJ, maybe that time has come and gone!

[vikingfan]

JJ you must be referring to the students enrolled through GE's cape fear community college program where they pay the students to complete their education and afterwards they work for a specified number of years to repay the investment GE made in them. typically i think its 2-3 years and they usually start them at about 11 or 12 bucks an hour. then they get a slight pay raise after completing their intial refuel floor training.

[jjordan]

JJ you must be referring to the students enrolled through GE's cape fear community college program where they pay the students to complete their education and afterwards they work for a specified number of years to repay the investment GE made in them. typically i think its 2-3 years and they usually start them at about 11 or 12 bucks an hour. then they get a slight pay raise after completing their intial refuel floor training.

You are correct on a few counts. It is Cape Fear (Good Community College) Third Class starting this fall I think. They pay you 11 or 12  to sit in class. More when you work. They send you to San Jose to learn refueling for a week or two, Good pay and good per diem also. Then it's off to the races, comming soon to a BWR near you.  You do have to work for a specifiedperiod of time or you have to pay it all back. You're too far in the hole to quit, but it sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me! Rad Ghost, I guess that explains why we were able to staff this year. First time in a long time. I hope you're wrong about missing the window, but you're probably not too far off. That's why my sense of urgency. It'll be a long time comming again, if ever!
JJ

[vikingfan]

we had a few of the cape fear guys in our recent class out at the GE training center. most of them were more then willing to listen to those of us with prior refeul floor experience. i know they get a small raise after class and in a year or two they should be up around 20 i think.

[Tina]

  Ok lets see "How will implamenting a union hault/or slow down this addtion to the work forse"  It seems to me that they can sign union cards too .... and its sounds like their no different from the DOE techs that come over to power house work .... escept their quals are accepted where DOE Core Cards are "meaningless" .....