prototype... filter or pump?

[JustPlainLo]

What I meant was that from my experience for every nav-nuke that had a good attitude you could find that number plus an additional 50% (i.e. more) that had a equal too or better attitude (re: non-nav-nukes).  Mac

I think that the poor attitude comes from the fact that the Nuclear Navy tends to dick people over into a certain level of grudging dissatisfaction and marginal ability to work.  I know that when I reported onboard the Hate My Job, I was enthusiastic about things and gung-ho about qualifying and learning my field.

A year and a half of the shipyard later, I was counting down the days to my EAOS, because every day was an adventure in how BOHICA could be applied to a department with effectively zero morale who only did their jobs because they still craved a little self-pride and not even the CoC could destroy everyone's will to at least function.

I mean, yes, I take a decent chunk of that on as a personal responsibility for my own attitude, but it wouldn't have taken too much effort to ensure that the department wasn't filled with people who were re-enlisting for orders off the boat, doing six-and-out, or staying in because they were 10+ already and they could "endure just a few more years until rotation." 


Anyway, that's what I see as why the attitudes of Navy Nukes tend towards "bad attitudes," we get broken these days.  There's very little job satisfaction, we don't really have much incentive to be happy, and most of us look forward to getting the hell away from the boat and forgetting it as soon as possible.

[MacGyver]

I think I have confused you. Yes, I am sure that is true for all nav-nuke generations. But, this attitude issue is or was not even a blip on the radar with the pre'1995 (ish) nav-nukes. It is a major problem with the post'1995 (ish) nav-nukes. It has caught or training departments attention. And not in a good way.  Mac

[JustPlainLo]

I think I have confused you. Yes, I am sure that is true for all nav-nuke generations. But, this attitude issue is or was not even a blip on the radar with the pre'1995 (ish) nav-nukes. It is a major problem with the post'1995 (ish) nav-nukes. It has caught or training departments attention. And not in a good way.  Mac

Hrm.  Maybe you have confused me; I can't really think of anything that would have a definite turning point like that, unless it's a generational thing - I know that my generation, the post 9/11 one - tends to be more open and upfront about our complaints and attitudes than older ones.  Or I might be talking out my butt and performing rectal data extraction; could someone else weigh in on this?

[HydroDave63]

I think I have confused you. Yes, I am sure that is true for all nav-nuke generations. But, this attitude issue is or was not even a blip on the radar with the pre'1995 (ish) nav-nukes. It is a major problem with the post'1995 (ish) nav-nukes. It has caught or training departments attention. And not in a good way.  Mac

I have a theory on that early/mid-90s point of inflection, only a theory: In that time frame, only one new nuclear plant went commercial, and several nuclear facilities either halted future hiring that had been in pipeline (a short-lived attempt to staff up for Browns Ferry, some tentative plans for restarting small-quantity production at Rocky Flats) or outright reductions in force at several utilities looking to reduce staffing costs due to rising costs of corporate bonds/lines of credit. In other words, the 6-and-out Non-Leakage probablity went way up due to lack of gravy nuclear jobs on the outside. High operatnig tempo in a shrinking fleet certainly didn't help.

[Cycoticpenguin]

I think that the poor attitude comes from the fact that the Nuclear Navy tends to dick people over into a certain level of grudging dissatisfaction and marginal ability to work.  I know that when I reported onboard the Hate My Job, I was enthusiastic about things and gung-ho about qualifying and learning my field.

I dunno dude. There was a LOT of brainwashing when I was in. Constantly told "we're the best of the best of the best", and that employers would be BEGGING us for jobs when we got out. Perhaps the "attitude" problem stems from that more so then being screwed over? We were consistently told that civ plants hire navy nukes to a fault, didnt matter how you acted, you were getting in!  Obviously not true, at least not any more. My plant didnt even hire one an ex navy nuke that interviewed because he had a poor attitude during his interview. Being on the outside looking in now, barring careerists that were getting out, it suprised me how painfully ignorant we all were about the civilian process. Its a common reverse mentality that the Nav was the "major leagues" and civ life was "easy" when in reality, its the other way around, correct?

Were you "old timers" (pre 95' as per mac's statement) "brainwashed" like we were?

[Higgs]

Yeah I remember that brainwashing and I am 1998 vintage navy nuke. "They" also told us that civilian nukes looked to the NNPP for its standards. Of course, now I know just how absurd that is. I also realized quickly that those saying those sorts of thing never worked in the commercial world and were therefore talking out their arses. Then when I started thinking about EAOS, I talked to an Entergy shift manager that gave me some perspective when he said "Navy nukes need to realize that no one is standing outside that gate waiting to hand you a 6 figure job." I think that is the belief quite a number of Navy nukes hold, hence the attitudes some are experiencing.

All of that said, whether now or 20 years ago, hard workers and people with their sh*t all in one sock can get a job and be successful in this industry. The creme of the crop will still rise to the top. Do we (commercial nukes) have to do some more skimming now than in the past? Perhaps, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.

[RDTroja]

Were you "old timers" (pre 95' as per mac's statement) "brainwashed" like we were?

Speaking from the point of view of a commercial-bred RP watching decades worth of ex-Navy Nukes on their first outages... yes. But for most of them it didn't last long when confronted by reality.

[Marlin]

   How about pre-1985 in the late 70's there wasn't a lot of influx yet but it was starting. I saw a lot of changes toward the Navy way of doing things including hiring ex-Navy admirals to honcho troubled plants. It did not take long to saturate and adapt to a middle ground, by the 90s Navy influence was a "been there done that".

[OldHP]

How about pre-1985 in the late 70's there wasn't a lot of influx yet but it was starting. I saw a lot of changes toward the Navy way of doing things including hiring ex-Navy admirals to honcho troubled plants. It did not take long to saturate and adapt to a middle ground, by the 90s Navy influence was a "been there done that". 

Attitudes were always there, but not as previlant - I interviewed a guy - LELT (74 -75 timeframe) that actually said, "I put out 8 years in the Navy, you commercial guys owe me a job"!  Another plant hired him and he failed in the initial training phase!

The creation/formation of INPO (post-TMI) 'with a heavy Navy influence', created a demand for NNPP experience; however, the commercial industry adapted to the 'INPO Standards' and found out quickly that they could train locals to do the task at hand (all areas) with less cost and risk!

JMO   

[Cycoticpenguin]

Oldhp, you were interviewing people 12 years before I was born :p

[HydroDave63]

Oldhp, you were interviewing people 12 years before I was born :p

Just means he was helping to set y'all up for success...let's see if Gen Whine can keep those high standards

[Marlin]

The creation/formation of INPO (post-TMI) 'with a heavy Navy influence', created a demand for NNPP experience; however, the commercial industry adapted to the 'INPO Standards' and found out quickly that they could train locals to do the task at hand (all areas) with less cost and risk!

JMO   

I have to agree with that, INPO was staffed by a lot of "Ring Knockers". But then INPO and Navy influence brought not just the people but the programs (including training) to a different level, there was a coal burner mentality that was common in Nukes before then.

[OldHP]

I have to agree with that, INPO was staffed by a lot of "Ring Knockers". But then INPO and Navy influence brought not just the people but the programs (including training) to a different level, there was a coal burner mentality that was common in Nukes before then.

Big yeah, particularly training!  When a certain SE Utility opened their training center in the 70s the folks who staffed it were the folks that couldn't cut it in the plants (as always with a few exceptions).  Rather than let someone go because they couldn't do the job, the attitude was 'well let's see if the TC has a place for him/her'!  Correct, even among the real nukes the attitude was 'well we hired this person we have an obligation'!

It was more obvious north of the mason-dixon, at one time the U-1 TD at a particular plant had cubicles for those relieved from duty in the plant, including folks caught asleep at the wheel, but not fired!

[Cleaver6]

Greetings,

I've been reading through posts on here with great interest because my son is interested in joining the Navy. He originally wanted to become a corpsman. However, due to several factors, among them: there would be a long waiting list, my wife's strong objection to his being attached to a Marine combat unit, the high score he recorded on the little "pre-Asvab" test they give in the recruiter's office, he's now looking at becoming a nuke.

Anyway, that's why I'm here.

As to the morale and attitude issue, please know that in my industry, semiconductor manufacturing, we still look very favorably upon resumes of former Navy nukes. Other than the almost certainty that they are quirky, we know their breadth of knowledge makes them good candidates to be equipment maintenance technicians in our fabs.

[RDTroja]

Greetings,

I've been reading through posts on here with great interest because my son is interested in joining the Navy. He originally wanted to become a corpsman. However, due to several factors, among them: there would be a long waiting list, my wife's strong objection to his being attached to a Marine combat unit, the high score he recorded on the little "pre-Asvab" test they give in the recruiter's office, he's now looking at becoming a nuke.

Anyway, that's why I'm here.

As to the morale and attitude issue, please know that in my industry, semiconductor manufacturing, we still look very favorably upon resumes of former Navy nukes. Other than the almost certainty that they are quirky, we know their breadth of knowledge makes them good candidates to be equipment maintenance technicians in our fabs.

Quirky... I like that. Very polite. 

[Cycoticpenguin]

Greetings,

I've been reading through posts on here with great interest because my son is interested in joining the Navy. He originally wanted to become a corpsman. However, due to several factors, among them: there would be a long waiting list, my wife's strong objection to his being attached to a Marine combat unit, the high score he recorded on the little "pre-Asvab" test they give in the recruiter's office, he's now looking at becoming a nuke.

Anyway, that's why I'm here.

As to the morale and attitude issue, please know that in my industry, semiconductor manufacturing, we still look very favorably upon resumes of former Navy nukes. Other than the almost certainty that they are quirky, we know their breadth of knowledge makes them good candidates to be equipment maintenance technicians in our fabs.

whats the pay like :p


Cool, good luck to your son on his endeavours and the trials he will face if he goes nuke

[Marlin]

Quirky... I like that. Very polite.  

For some of us we prefer Eccentric Lords of Technology    

[Cleaver6]

whats the pay like :p


Cool, good luck to your son on his endeavours and the trials he will face if he goes nuke

Base pay for a fresh out with no experience in semiconductors would be in the neighborhood of $50K-$60K.

Thanks for the good luck wishes.

[Cycoticpenguin]

Base pay for a fresh out with no experience in semiconductors would be in the neighborhood of $50K-$60K.

Thanks for the good luck wishes.

thats not too shabby!!

[goobs22xx]

Thanks for posting, Cleaver.

Good luck to your boy.

[MacGyver]

Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!

[slavutich]

I had 14 guys that worked under me in RadCon in '99, many of which were new from prototype...this is when I first questioned the changing standards of the nuclear Navy. It had nothing to do with the level of knowledge of these kids...more about their attitudes. The economy was booming and it was harder to recruit then...I got that and all worked out well in the end with these guys.

I was staff at NPTU Charleston '00-'04 and I don't think the role was any different from when I went through in '94-'95. A-School & NPS were the filters and prototype was to get these kids to the fleet where they were desperately needed. They had proven themselves to a point and were trainable and trustworthy (always exceptions). We always called it a pump as well...a pump with minimal leakage (drugs & such), but a pump all the same.

As far as morale and attitudes...I was on the 'Mobile Chernobyl' (CVAN-65) and of course we had times when it really sucked, but it wasn't all the time. I personally couldn't have asked for a better way to get my experience...it's what we make of it. I certainly didn't expect $100k jobs when I got out and anyone who does needs to do some research or risk serious disappointment!

[monkbirdduke]

I graduated about 4ish years ago...I'm not sure if it was a filter or a pump.  I think if word came down that they needed more nukes, the leadership would just put alot more pressure on the staff to get the dumb kids qualified.  I don't know if that really counts as lowering the standard though.  We had massive training holds at prototype when i was there, so we all knew the systems as well as the staff (maybe not the operations though).  I only saw one of the officers on my crew fail out.  Everyone else passed, and deserved to.  I'd say it's worth finishing though; I just got out three months ago, and picked up a 70K job as an I&C tech at a water company in Sonoma. 

[Cleaver6]

Update time. My son scored a 64 on the NAPT and is in the Nuke program. He was sworn in to the DEP last week and his ship date to boot camp is November 9th. We're not sure how that worked out when we've seen other people posting ship dates that are much later, but he's quite excited.

[Marlin]

Good luck to your son...


Semper Fi to you...

[Cleaver6]

Good luck to your son...


Semper Fi to you...

Thank you.

[Drayer]

Well a wise person once told me:

Every generation has complained about the generation that came after them, yet we continue to survive

Not only are they continuing to survive, the other E in the surface fleet just gave out big MONEY (which is roughly 39 Ford Mustangs) to those who are keeping the model of surface nuclear power alive and well. They may be too [insert  here] for many of your standards, but it's still steaming and selling jewelry and letter jackets on the messdecks. We also know that with it's new CO, it's remembering the dawn and dodging fog at every opportunity!

We as LPO's, LCPO's, DIVO's, PA's, etc...need to stop complaining about the level of knowledge todays newbie's have.  The current system is not going to change.  So,  it is a leadership challenge that WE as leaders need to overcome.

BTW...when I was a young nub MM3 back in 1990 I occasionally heard the "old timers" complaining about the level of knowledge of the nubs.   I'll bet if you if you went into the way back machine and emerged in the 1970's you probably would have heard some crusty MM1 complaining about the level of knowledge of his nubs.  Same thing over and over. 

I don't always agree with Gamecock, in fact I don't even like the SEC or the old ball coach... but this is one of the best statements on the subject that I have seen in some time. It was probably all that submarine time that gave him this Rocky insight on the topic.

[MacGyver]

I am pretty sure this thread is dead?!?!?  But, I better make sure ...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpsf-EbyBhI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpsf-EbyBhI</a>

[Drayer]

I am pretty sure this thread is dead?!?!?  But, I better make sure ...

Was that Dick Cheney in that video?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpqU6-w1DIo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpqU6-w1DIo</a>

As for the thread:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xos2MnVxe-c" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xos2MnVxe-c</a>

[Gamma Glue]

Pump.

I was an instructor there for almost 4 years (left last year) and was a TC before I left. Most of the attrition is due to poor performance on exams, there isn't much we can do about that, or from students that "can't take it" and choose the medical route.
As far as exams go, the 50% exam is only to determine your performance and see how well you'll do on the Comp. If you fail the 50 twice, nothing happens. Infact, no one even looks at if if you pass, so essentially I could take your exam, plug random numbers into the computer to ensure you pass and shred the exam with out ever looking at it. However, we would rather grade it to see the ridiculous answers students provide (everyone loves a good laugh). The Comp is different, if you fail twice, you're out. That might sound like a filter, but we tell you exactly how to answer the questions ("shotgunning" is allowed and pretty much required if you want to do well), and most good End of Card checkouts should have common Comp questions in them, mine always did. Plus there have even been a few who got to take the test a third time. Students have failed so many watches they have to get another page added to their books (the most I saw was over 20 watches and he still failed after NR declined his third Final Watch Board). When we get you ready for your final oral board we pretty much tell you exactly what is going to be asked, which is obvious if you have paid attention the the types of questions up to that point. If I wanted someone to pass I knew what to ask and what to stay away from. It pretty much like a script. I could still tell you what they will ask during your oral board (as long as you are an MM) The only student I failed at an oral board was basically doing the exact opposite Immediate Actions, twice (killed everyone the first time and tried to on the second casualty), hard to pull a passing grade from that. There are plenty of students that I thought would be terrible as an operator, had poor grades, poor performance, and a bad attitude that still made it. Infact, my entire crew thought one should fail, we told his board members to fail him , and they still passed him. (This is usually due to the civilians, they always pass you the second time). A friend of mine is on a sub with one of our ex-students who passed but shouldn't have, and the kid is still terrible, can't do a thing right and sucks at life in general. That being said, prototype has to be a pump, it wouldn't work any other way. Some people don't even see a need for it. It wasn't designed to make you the worlds best operator. When you show up to your first Ship (or boat for the tubers) all they expect you to do is talk on phones, take a set of logs, know how to qualify and (oddly enough) live on your own. It's funny but one of prototypes teachings is how to live in town on your own. Most sailors are out of high school and have no idea how to, which is why we are so into you personal life and it's one of the first places we look when things start to go bad.