Pro's and Con's

[SN Bass]

Hey guys I recently enlisted into the Navy Nuclear Field and I would like to know, what are some of the bad and the good things about this program after I get out of the schooling.  I heard that there is a lot of work involved which does not necessarily bother me much, but, I would like to know if that is shifts being longer, more days a week, or just harder work with a normal shift.  Also, I have heard that we get an entirely different pay scale, is this true?  Also, is it good or bad.

I just would like to hear the answers to those particular questions plus whatever else you guys might think I should know about the program.

[Preciousblue1965]

Well having just gotten out in the past two years I will do my best to keep this as balanced as possible. 

Pros
-you get more money than other people in the navy that are the same rank.  You get ProPay for being a nuke and you get really big re-enlistment bonuses. 
-You make rank much faster than other people in the Navy.  Avg. time for promotion to 1st class for a star baby was about 4 years when I made it.  The fun part is attempting to keep that rank.
-Plenty of opportunity on the outside for work when you get out.
-you know what type of ship you will be on, either CVN, SSBN, SSGN, or SSN.  Compared to the dozens of other types in the conventional world.
-You will be put in positions of leadership or expertiese when placed to work with non-nukes.
-Nukes respect knowledge more than rank(although the rest of the Navy operates opposite of this)

Cons(There are a lot in my book but I will try to keep them to a minimum)
-You will work more than anyone else in the Navy  First ones on, last ones off.
-That measily extra pay you get will not compensate for the BS you will incur on a daily basis from regulations, to exams, to ORSE, to interpretations.
-Your shore duty choices are very limited.  Basically it is prototype or stay on the boat these days
-The turn over rate is so high, the nuclear navy refuses to use any criteria in selecting new students(sorry cold hard fact, easier to replace than to retain) therefore, really bad nukes stay in and cannot be gotten rid of.
-When the S*$% hits the fan, the command will always find a nuke to fix it but will never give them the credit they deserve, but will instead give it to a guy who does ok just to continue breathing without further instructions(see NAM for polishing deckplates for SK vs. rebuilding a SSTG and getting extra work for doing a good job)

Like I said there are a lot more both pro's and con's and I am sure other people will chime in.  For the most part, most nukes hate their life but would not trade the experience or their friends for the world.  Something about going through hell to bring people together.  Just remember it always gets better after _________(Insert Event here E.G. ORSE, MTT, FastCruise, PEMA, PIA, etc.)
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[Loffy Muffin]

Basically, you will work the hardest and get treated the worst.  Sorry kid, I wish I could tell you differently. The Navy is like bizarro world.  Everything is reverse logic.  Work the hardest, be the smartest: get treated like crapola. 
But, if you make it through the 6 years without punching some sadistic lifer out (get them on the beach after a lot of beers.  Plausible deniability I think its called. Its harder then you can imagine going 4plus years without blowing up on one of these clowns) you should be able to score a nice gig making good money. 

And that isn't bad. 

[SN Bass]

Do that many people actually like the job and stay in for 20+ years?  I don't really mind busting my butt in working, nor getting treated s****y that much as long as I have a paycheck to come with it.  I am also planning to become an officer later on through an ROTC program or OCS or something.  Will it be possible to switch jobs then?  Like if I decided to try out for pilot.  The guy who talked to me on the nuke field told me he loved it, he gave me some of the same bad sides to it you guys told me. But, he said he pretty much enjoyed what he did.  Well keep the answers coming I want to be prepared for what I will be facing.

Also, does anyone know the dropout rate for the school?  I'm not that worried about it though because I made a 74 out of 80 on the test.  I know it will be hard and such but I believe I will get through.

Modified for language.

[Loffy Muffin]

I didn't know anyone that liked it.  Zero.  nada.  The people that reenlisted did it for 20,000 reasons as in bucks.  It is more now.  All of the senior nukes were pretty much a mess.  Serious character flaws.   But, this is just one dudes experience on one boat a long time ago.  I'm sure it has changed.

Don't mind getting treated like crap, working long hours as long as they throw you coin or two?  Well, you have definitely choosen the right field. 

look up other threads for ogang vs enlisted. 

[Preciousblue1965]

Well there are more reasons to reenlist than just money.  Some people do it because their family has medical problems that private insurance won't cover or costs too much to cover.  Others do it because of the retirement benefits.  Others do it because they know they can't hack it in the civilian sector.  Some do it because they actually enjoy it but those people are generally not quite right in the head.  Not all senior nukes are a mess, but you don't get promoted to higher up positions unless you learn to play nuclear politics, which usually leads to burning a lot of common sense bridges in the process.  But this is also just one guys opinion who happened to spend 3 years at protohell and see a lot of people who should not have gotten through get pushed through because they need replacements.

[Preciousblue1965]

Something else I forgot to mention.  ASVAB and NFQT(if they still give it) scores don't mean JS when it comes to nuke school.  Knew a guy in A school got max score on both and flunked out after the second subject.  Seen guys who barely got in excel.  It is all about you ability to think critically(all pun intended) and suck down the firehose of info they feed you.  Some words of wisdom for you though

1. No good deal goes unpunished.  If you find yourself in a situation where life is really good, be prepared for life to suck in the near future.  The level of suck rarely if ever is below the level of good.

2. No matter what you do, what your situation, or what problems you have; someone in your command has been through that same situation.  Seek out their help and use their experience in the matter to help you through yours.

3. The stupid shall be punished.  This rarely means those that are not intelligent but rather those who are smart enough to know better but refuse to fully engage that mass of matter between their ears.

4. The amount of time that you will have a good Chain of command is approx. 1/2 to 1/4 of the amount of time that you will have a crappy COC.

[Cycoticpenguin]

I have recently gone through the pipeline and am now on medical hold on a ship.

1) A school and Power school are pretty much cut and dry. You are constantly supervised, your hours are VERY straightforward, and you work a 5 day work week with some study time on the weekends. the amount of time you spend at work depend 100% on your ability to pay attention, take notes, ask questions, and apply the knowledge you have learned.

2) Prototype is VERY different. You get subjected to 12 hour days in a schedule like this - 7 days of 7 am - 7 pm, "2" days off (you will understand), 7 days of 11 am - 11 pm, "1" day off", 7 days of 7 pm - 7 am, "3" days off, 4 days of 7am - "7"pm, 4 days off. repeat this for 4 months. The problem with Prototype is the lack of supervision. You pretty much make your own noose at prototype. If you work hard, keep your nose clean, and bust your butt, you will notice your time is a lot easier then others. However, since you dont have people over your butt 24/7, its rather easy to slip into a vicious cycle of slacking off. Dont be one of those guys.

3) once you report to the ship, the hours stabilize in port/shipyard, however you are more pressured to qualify and support your watchbill. However, theres still a lack of supervision, so you get the same "make or break" thing at prototype. HOWEVER the key difference here is that you live and work with these people for the next 4-5 years!   

Basically with prototype and shipyard/port (I have not gone to sea, so I wont skepticize what happens), the old adage "Dont crap where you eat" applies. Oh yeah, and enjoy 4 section duty when the rest of the ship has 8 section Prepare to work harder then you have ever had in your life.

As for the bad things, the navy is what you make of it. Each person has their own good and bad things that are unique to them.

Good Luck!

[SN Bass]

Thanks for all the information guys.  I do have one more question though.  What will my average shifts usually be while in shipyards and on a ship.  And will it still be 7 days a week?

[xobxdoc]

I was on the Truxtun in the Bremerton yards in 82. The nukes were on the prototype shift rotation which was pretty nice. No duty days. That is until we got steam back in the engineroom and we did port and starboard for a month until we left the yards. Over all it was pretty good duty.

[Preciousblue1965]

Well I can only speak from a Carrier standpoint.  Normal 6 month yard periods usually go like this.  

Beginning:  Usually starts after a 6+month deployment.  The first month after the deployment is supposed to be a standdown.  Minimal work.  YEA RIGHT.  During the Standown, the yardbirds will come in and try to get started with the overhaul.  Lots of paperwork, tagouts, getting systems shutdown, etc.  This goes on for about 45-60 days once it starts.  

Middle:  The only good thing during shipyard period.  Generally, not a lot going on, shipyard owns every system, nothing is running, very little maintenance for ship crew to do.  This is when a lot of people go to various schools for the navy.  Most of the time this will be where you will maximize duty section rotation and liberty. Lasts about 2-3 months

End:  Kiss your life goodbye for about 1 to 2 months.  My old boat went Port/Stbd duty section rotation.  Basically you had 27 hours on the boat, 21 off, back on for 27(after preshift briefings, watch turnover, and having to stick around for Happy Hour cleaning untill 9 am).  Watch rotation was 6 on/6 off and had a dedicated maintenance team of non-watchstanders.  Some boats go to lock shift work but not sure how that works.  Shipyard will wait until the last minute to get everything done, and then even add about double the intial jobs in the last few weeks.  LIFE WILL SUCK.  No getting around it.  it will suck harder than anything you have ever witnessed in life.  

Fast Cruise:  This where you stay on the boat for several days and pretend to be underway.  No one leaves, especially nukes.  Everything is running and being tested except the engines(althought have heard of some carriers testing the mains out with steel lines tying them down).  After about 2 days, topsiders get to go home and RX Dept stays onboard to ensure that everything that the yardbirds broke gets fixed prior to underway.  

Sea Trials:  The only interesting underway you will have.  No planes, no chowdales, just ship's crew.  Go out, test everything shipyard worked on, Fix anything they touched, and put the ship through some interesting things.  Crashbacks, Full speed rudderswings(hard turns that make the ship pitch over about 45 degrees both directions) and other fun things.  Only underways I really enjoyed.  

Hope that helps.  Don't know about Subs but from what I hear they suck just as bad if not worse.  Sure you don't go underway but towards the end you will wsh that you were underway.  Shipyard periods really suck hard core.

[rumrunner]

Shipyard periods really suck hard core.

I never thought I'd say that when the Nimitz first entered Newport News for 18 months back in 1983, but towards the end I couldn't wait to move the ship back to pier 12 at Norfolk.  I had to see the Captain for a check-out on some qual (LELT or PPWS, I forget) when we were about ready to leave the yards,  and I told him the same thing (no, I wasn't sucking up for a sign-off.  He asked the question).

What really was bad was the poor saps who couldn't afford to live in civilian land.  They stayed on a barge in the yard and had to carry their hardhats and steel-toed shoes with them on liberty since they were required whenever on shipyard property.  We'd see these guys in downtown Hampton with yellow hardhats tied to their shorts, wearing their boondockers, and you couldn't help but laugh. 

And there is nothing quite like the stunning cruelty of a fast cruise in the shipyard.  I had a man who's wife went into labor and they wouldn't let him leave until a regularly scheduled whaleboat ran from the ship to the end of the pier.  Seriously.  He had approved leave so he yelled at the yardbird running the crane on the pier to swing the bucket onto the elevator.  He got in the bucket and went to the hospital.  They wrote him up for leaving the ship in an unapproved manner!  The chief got the charge dropped. 

I don't know how it is now, but when at Norfolk we usually had quarters and secured to the duty section by 0900.

[Preciousblue1965]

Well my last PIA(carrier overhall) the last 45 days or so were port/stbd duty with 6x6 watch rotations.  I was WCS and one of the few people that knew how to write tagouts in SOMS(practically could tag out almost anything from memory if I had to) so even though I stood my 6 hour watch I would be up the next 6 hours writing up tags and WAFs for yardbirds to work on something for the third and forth time.  Our ship had Happy Hour from 7:30 to 8:30 am everyday.  If you had the 4th watch you didn't get relieved until 730. Topsiders were complaining that RX dept was leaving during cleaning stations so they made everyone stick around till after happy hour(nevermind they were still 8 sect duty and we were P/S).  The last week or so it turned into pretty much you lived on the boat even if you weren't on duty. 

[DSO]

Well my last PIA(carrier overhall)   Our ship had Happy Hour from 7:30 to 8:30 am everyday.  If you had the 4th watch you didn't get relieved until 730. Topsiders were complaining that RX dept was leaving during cleaning stations so they made everyone stick around till after happy hour(nevermind they were still 8 sect duty and we were P/S).  The last week or so it turned into pretty much you lived on the boat even if you weren't on duty. 

I encountered this--Nukes working 12-16 hr shifts, but because of gutless supposed leaders that would not speak up to the XO, they stayed around for another hour to field day with the whining Coners. Just one example of why the Navy Nuclear field loses so many people.  I wish I had these leaders for bosses now--I love overtime pay for senseless tasks.

[Loffy Muffin]

of course the coners are going to stick it to the nukes at every opportunity.  they run the boat.  Plus, they just love it when they can get a nuke who still thinks he is "special".  A nuke should be able to figure that out.

What was a real hoot, was when they have an E-6 ELT from proto type come on board to take over as the lead ELT, and they stuck him the torpedo room while an E-2 cook loser getting a rack....I think I  reminded him of that, oh, about every day.

I made as many friends forward as I could.  Radio?  Now I know all the messages going in and out (hey, did the fool XO send the dive school message?)...Yeoman...("Hey, they are fixing to write you up, better keep your head down."  Plus, your paper work get expedited)...cooks...("here are some steaks/shrimp/lobster for your surf road trip to mexico")....Sonar (hang out in the shack listening to AC/DC or sleeping during field day while the special nukes are in the bilge).  Plus the coner chiefs are not complete basket cases like the nuke chiefs.  The COB is usually a coner, so hanging out with the coners makes a nuke high the COB's list of favorites...so I used to get choice berthing, best barracks, easy field days...

[mlslstephens]

of course the coners are going to stick it to the nukes at every opportunity.  they run the boat.  Plus, they just love it when they can get a nuke who still thinks he is "special".  A nuke should be able to figure that out.

What was a real hoot, was when they have an E-6 ELT from proto type come on board to take over as the lead ELT, and they stuck him the torpedo room while an E-2 cook loser getting a rack....I think I  reminded him of that, oh, about every day.

I made as many friends forward as I could.  Radio?  Now I know all the messages going in and out (hey, did the fool XO send the dive school message?)...Yeoman...("Hey, they are fixing to write you up, better keep your head down."  Plus, your paper work get expedited)...cooks...("here are some steaks/shrimp/lobster for your surf road trip to mexico")....Sonar (hang out in the shack listening to AC/DC or sleeping during field day while the special nukes are in the bilge).  Plus the coner chiefs are not complete basket cases like the nuke chiefs.  The COB is usually a coner, so hanging out with the coners makes a nuke high the COB's list of favorites...so I used to get choice berthing, best barracks, easy field days...

I usually don't do this...but what the heck, you caught me in a rare mood. 

Loffy, when I read your post, I am reminded of the sound of 400 Hz SSMGs...nothing but whine.  Your thoughts take me back to Napa Valley...surrounded by "whine". 

The smite is for not staying on topic or providing anthing useful to others on the forum...just like I just did, but I wanted to make a point.  I'd smite myself if I could.

[navytwinmom]

  Work the hardest, be the smartest: get treated like crapola. 

Sorry to burst any bubbles here but that is life babyyyyy. I have worked for the same company for 17 years (yes i know i am crazy) and feel the same way. As long as you are doing your job the right way oops i mean the Navy way you should be proud.

<NTW steps up on her soap box>

Pro of being a Navy Nuke--from a moms point of view
 
The pride that comes from knowing you are working the hardest and are the smartest.
Knowing that no matter how much crappola they sling at you you are still the hardest working and smartest
The smiles on the faces of your family and friends when they see you come home. I know i am soooooooo proud of my sons and all the Navy guys on this site for their service. It is not something i like to think about but when i do i know some very brave young women and men are out there doing what i can not.

<NTW steps down from soap box>

NaVLI4--i would double applaud you if i could!! 

[Loffy Muffin]

Just trying to help the guy out...make friends with the people the run the boat..that's whining? Uh, no that is smart.  How many days did I spend in the TR?  Zero.  The E-6 lead ELT in the torpedo room...that is funny.  Case study in "why not to come to the boat with an attitude".

How many field days did I spend in the ER?  Not many, I was in the sonar shack snoozing with my sonar friends....  then the COB comes by telling how nice the sonar looks.... while the nukes have to work extra because the ER is "not clean enough".  so, I'm in the crews mess eating ice cream while the nukes are doing extra. That is funny.  no hilarious.  I think I called back there to ask them if they wanted me to save them any ice cream.  Just trying to help my nuke buddies.  Case study in "why it pays to make friends with the coners".  (I have to spell everything out here. We have career navy dude that can't figure it out.)

Life is working hard and getting treaded like crapola?  Uh, maybe your life is sweet heart.  Not mine.  If I  get even remotely treating like crap now and it's seaya later (I don't)...I like making my own way (I do).   Case study in "why it is smart to be have marketable skill set" Get paid, get treated well. 

Brave young men/women? Please.  Let me wipe the tear from my eye.  Do a tour with  the jarheads/seals/rangers/army and then get back to me.  I/we sat in temperature controlled environment eating as much food as we could getting fat and cleaning.  whoopie...now everyone whats to make it look like they were some kinda of "heros'.  the most action I seen was when we cleaned out some bar in the PI. 
 
so, SN Bass, you don't want to come to  boat with "I am a nuke, I'm better then the coners" attitude (most do).  fit in.  make friends with the forward people and they will take care of you. forward people run the boat, make no mistake about that.  You get on their bad side...

That is not adding anything?  That is great advice and is exactly on topic.  He wants to knowthe good/bad things when he gets to sea.  RTFQ, dude. 

[Marlin]

Just trying to help the guy out...make friends with the people the run the boat..that's whining? Uh, no that is smart.  How many days did I spend in the TR?  Zero.  The E-6 lead ELT in the torpedo room...that is funny.  Case study in "why not to come to the boat with an attitude".

How many field days did I spend in the ER?  Not many, I was in the sonar shack snoozing with my sonar friends....  then the COB comes by telling how nice the sonar looks.... while the nukes have to work extra because the ER is "not clean enough".  so, I'm in the crews mess eating ice cream while the nukes are doing extra. That is funny.  no hilarious.  I think I called back there to ask them if they wanted me to save them any ice cream.  Just trying to help my nuke buddies.  Case study in "why it pays to make friends with the coners".  (I have to spell everything out here. We have career navy dude that can't figure it out.)

Life is working hard and getting treaded like crapola?  Uh, maybe your life is sweet heart.  Not mine.  If I  get even remotely treating like crap now and it's seaya later (I don't)...I like making my own way (I do).   Case study in "why it is smart to be have marketable skill set" Get paid, get treated well. 

Brave young men/women? Please.  Let me wipe the tear from my eye.  Do a tour with  the jarheads/seals/rangers/army and then get back to me.  I/we sat in temperature controlled environment eating as much food as we could getting fat and cleaning.  whoopie...now everyone whats to make it look like they were some kinda of "heros'.  the most action I seen was when we cleaned out some bar in the PI. 
 
so, SN Bass, you don't want to come to  boat with "I am a nuke, I'm better then the coners" attitude (most do).  fit in.  make friends with the forward people and they will take care of you. forward people run the boat, make no mistake about that.  You get on their bad side...

That is not adding anything?  That is great advice and is exactly on topic.  He wants to knowthe good/bad things when he gets to sea.  RTFQ, dude. 

I very rarely smite anyone for anything, but attacking the mother of veterans is pretty d%*n low. That and you seem to be a self proclaimed slacker and hate monger. Hopefully a moderator in a better frame of mind will delete all of this and send me a PM to cool off but for right now...

[navytwinmom]

Life is working hard and getting treaded like crapola?  Uh, maybe your life is sweet heart.  Not mine.  If I  get even remotely treating like crap now and it's seaya later (I don't)...I like making my own way (I do).

OK i am doing this publicly and i will take all the smiting and private PM's from the mods if they feel i have stepped over the line......

A...I am not your sweet heart...
B....i reread my post and i did not limit my thanks to just Navy men and woman...my dad did tours in Korean and Vietnam (army)...friends of mine are "jarheads"....i don't reserve my thanks/appreciation/support for those serving their country to just Navy.
C...i am glad (and i am not saying that sarcastically) you have the opportunity in your life to say seaya later to a job that remotely treats you like crap...most of us don't have the luxury.

[rumrunner]

Getting back to the OP's question...

Yes, being a nuc means long hours quite often and not a lot of thanks for it.  You do make rate faster and your bonuses for re-upping are higher.  But an MM3 on a minesweeper with 2 years of service makes the same as a nuclear MM3 with 2 years of service as far as basic pay goes.  On the other hand, at least during my Navy life it seemed the command held nucs to a higher standard than others when it came to violating the UCMJ.  Take two sailors - one nuc and one non-nuc - have them both get drunk in Napoli and make a scene - and the nuc would get more punishment from the Captain.  It kind of wears you down after a while, ya know?  Hence the huge turnover rate of nucs. 

I am proud of my Navy time, but prouder that it is over.  I offer no apologies for saying that my sole motivation for joining the Navy Nuclear Program was to get the training and skills and then move on to commercial nuclear power.  It paid off for me and so I am thankful for my nuclear Navy time in that light.  But to be honest, I didn't join the Navy out of patriotism.  I spent that capital in my Marine Corps time prior to joining the Navy. 

Did I ever feel that my being a nuc (and allegedly smarter and more elite than the coners or top-siders) made up for my extra work?  No, it didn't.  It is hard to think of oneself as smarter when the guys in the Navigation Department are walking off the brow to go on liberty,  and we had to stay aboard and polish deck plates in the engineering spaces.

 

[G-reg]

I strongly believe in "live and let live", including everyone's right to their own opinions and ideas.  So Loffy, you can keep your opinions and ideas, but those particular opinions and ideas are ones you can keep to yourself.  The words you are spewing at this young individual are pure poison.  No matter how much I've disagreed with anyone's post in the past, I have never smited anyone.

Congratulations, you've just become a personal first for me.

SN Bass, you should try to get along with (and even like) as many people on the ship as you can, because you're going to be working with them in close quarters for years.  NOT because they may be able to include you in a scam-out.

For example, there was one Yeoman I liked in particular because this dude was just hilarious, not because I feared a report chit and needed an early-warning radar to keep my scammin' butt out of trouble.

I was polite and respectful to all of the FSA's (Food Service Attendants, you'll find out) because they had a crappy job and they could use all the human kindness they could get; you could actually see the difference in the way they carried themselves after you gave them a genuine "Thank you" or atta-boy.  Exactly the WRONG thing to do is heckle or make fun of guys getting 'the shaft' - it's petty and pathetic, and besides some of those guys working under those conditions can get downright cranky (and some of them are BIG guys!).

So work hard at your job, and get along with as many people as you can.  You don't have to be everybody's friend (do try to avoid the bad apples in the group), but have as many friends as you can.  This holds true whether you go Nuke or not.

I was a Nuke for over 20 years, and yes it is more work being a Nuke.  I myself am glad that I chose to become a Nuke; I wouldn't go back and change it for all the tea in China.

Just one guy's thoughts.

 - Greg

[navytwinmom]

I strongly believe in "live and let live", including everyone's right to their own opinions and ideas.  So Loffy, you can keep your opinions and ideas, but those particular opinions and ideas are ones you can keep to yourself.  The words you are spewing at this young individual are pure poison.  No matter how much I've disagreed with anyone's post in the past, I have never smited anyone.

Congratulations, you've just become a personal first for me.

SN Bass, you should try to get along with (and even like) as many people on the ship as you can, because you're going to be working with them in close quarters for years.  NOT because they may be able to include you in a scam-out.

For example, there was one Yeoman I liked in particular because this dude was just hilarious, not because I feared a report chit and needed an early-warning radar to keep my scammin' butt out of trouble.

I was polite and respectful to all of the FSA's (Food Service Attendants, you'll find out) because they had a crappy job and they could use all the human kindness they could get; you could actually see the difference in the way they carried themselves after you gave them a genuine "Thank you" or atta-boy.  Exactly the WRONG thing to do is heckle or make fun of guys getting 'the shaft' - it's petty and pathetic, and besides some of those guys working under those conditions can get downright cranky (and some of them are BIG guys!).

So work hard at your job, and get along with as many people as you can.  You don't have to be everybody's friend (do try to avoid the bad apples in the group), but have as many friends as you can.  This holds true whether you go Nuke or not.

I was a Nuke for over 20 years, and yes it is more work being a Nuke.  I myself am glad that I chose to become a Nuke; I wouldn't go back and change it for all the tea in China.

Just one guy's thoughts.

 - Greg

Thank you for your service and your post...very sage advice.

[HydroDave63]

How many field days did I spend in the ER?  Not many, I was in the sonar shack snoozing with my sonar friends.... 

Life is working hard and getting treaded like crapola?  Uh, maybe your life is sweet heart.  Not mine.  If I  get even remotely treating like crap now and it's seaya later (I don't)...I like making my own way (I do).   

Case study in "why it is smart to be have marketable skill set" Get paid, get treated well. 

I think we mistranslated the post... looks like 'sweet heart' is the code word that coners use for a nuke that snoozes with them, doesn't do field day in the engineering spaces, and has a 'marketable skill set'.

Makes much more sense now.

[PWHoppe]

I very rarely smite anyone for anything, but attacking the mother of veterans is pretty d%*n low. That and you seem to be a self proclaimed slacker and hate monger. Hopefully a moderator in a better frame of mind will delete all of this and send me a PM to cool off but for right now...

No way would I delete your post Marlin. I'm just trying to keep from resoponding to this piece of work (Loffy Muffin) in much stronger terms. + Karma to ya' for speaking out.

 NTM...+ Karma to you also.

Oh, and BTW although I rarely smite anyone Loffy is too far over the line not to.