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thenuttyneutron

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #25 on: Mar 11, 2011, 05:23 »
What a shame.  As long as I have an intact RCS and an Auxiliary Feed Pump (steam turbine driven), I can keep everything safe with no power.  It has already been accomplished when a tornado took out the switch yard in 1998.

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #26 on: Mar 11, 2011, 05:28 »
What a shame.  As long as I have an intact RCS and an Auxiliary Feed Pump (steam turbine driven), I can keep everything safe with no power.  It has already been accomplished when a tornado took out the switch yard in 1998.


I am not sure the point? It is a hit against BWRs? BWRs require no power to remain safe, either, and they don't even need an intact RCS. That was the point of everything I said above your post. Throw an 8.9 earthquake into the mix and that changes things. You can't say for sure that you wouldn't be in a similar position had such an event occurred at your plant. The key word in your statement is "intact." Who knows what they have intact. That is what I was trying to figure out based on what crappy info the media is putting out. They've apparently lost "intactness" to a lot of things.
« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2011, 05:32 by JustinHEMI »

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #27 on: Mar 11, 2011, 05:33 »
Oh and I just read what someone posted above, and in there they said the "emergency cooling system is intact and can kick in if needed." So, in a nut shell, they are fine and it is simply poor reporting occurring. I am not sure what system they are alluding to exactly, but any intact ECCS system and the reactor is A-OK.

Offline debib

Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #28 on: Mar 11, 2011, 05:38 »
I've read--MSNBC FWIW--that there is radiation detected in the control room of Unit 1.

1000 times normal?  Who knows.

Offline debib

Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #29 on: Mar 11, 2011, 05:41 »
That's a lot of nerve on the part of the media--yes they can have a lot of nerve--if this information is not at all correct.

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #30 on: Mar 11, 2011, 05:58 »
That's a lot of nerve on the part of the media--yes they can have a lot of nerve--if this information is not at all correct.

Well a silver lining to this. If they report all these catastrophic conditions, and nothing ends up happening, that will bolster our safety reputation. eating an 8.9 earthquake and coming out on top seems like good publicity in the long run.

Hope they are getting things sorted.


justin are these ads valves you are talking about the "shotgun valves" I heard about?

Offline debib

Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #31 on: Mar 11, 2011, 06:02 »
I was thinking that earlier this morning about bolstering the nuclear reputation.  That would be excellent for the nuclear industry as a whole.  If this somehow happened
here in the U.S.--thinking sh**ts and grins here only--I would trust the well trained operators to do what they are highly
trained and smart to do.

JustinHEMI05

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #32 on: Mar 11, 2011, 06:04 »
Well a silver lining to this. If they report all these catastrophic conditions, and nothing ends up happening, that will bolster our safety reputation. eating an 8.9 earthquake and coming out on top seems like good publicity in the long run.

Hope they are getting things sorted.


justin are these ads valves you are talking about the "shotgun valves" I heard about?

I don't know, never heard that term. ADS valves at peach bottom were "automatic depressurization system" valves. Meaning, if the sh*t really hit the fan, the reactor would depressurize itself, automatically. However, as far as I know, one of the first things all BWR operators do in the US is defeat the "automatic" part of this system during a scenario because you don't want an uncontrolled depressurization of the vessel and subsequent flooding with cold water. One of the key BWR operator fundamentals then becomes depressurizing the reactor when it becomes necessary, since it will no longer do it itself. So, all things being equal, if the sh*t hit the fan there big time, they should have something similar which would allow them to depressurize the reactor rapidly to the suppression feature, and maintain it that way almost indefinitely, so long as they have the ability to remove heat from containment.

"Shot gun valves?" Almost sounds like the explosive valves used to inject "standby liquid control," the one shot tank of borated water used during an ATWS to help shut down the reactor.

Oh, and to be more in depth, the "ADS valves" are simply a select few SRVs (safety relief valves) that have this extra special purpose. We had 11 SRVs at Peach Bottom, 5 of them were ADS valves. We also had 2 safety valves that lifted higher than the SRVs, for a total of 13 over-pressure protection valves.
« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2011, 06:08 by JustinHEMI »

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #33 on: Mar 11, 2011, 06:19 »
I don't know, never heard that term. ADS valves at peach bottom were "automatic depressurization system" valves. Meaning, if the sh*t really hit the fan, the reactor would depressurize itself, automatically. However, as far as I know, one of the first things all BWR operators do in the US is defeat the "automatic" part of this system during a scenario because you don't want an uncontrolled depressurization of the vessel and subsequent flooding with cold water. One of the key BWR operator fundamentals then becomes depressurizing the reactor when it becomes necessary, since it will no longer do it itself. So, all things being equal, if the sh*t hit the fan there big time, they should have something similar which would allow them to depressurize the reactor rapidly to the suppression feature, and maintain it that way almost indefinitely, so long as they have the ability to remove heat from containment.

"Shot gun valves?" Almost sounds like the explosive valves used to inject "standby liquid control," the one shot tank of borated water used during an ATWS to help shut down the reactor.

Oh, and to be more in depth, the "ADS valves" are simply a select few SRVs (safety relief valves) that have this extra special purpose. We had 11 SRVs at Peach Bottom, 5 of them were ADS valves. We also had 2 safety valves that lifted higher than the SRVs, for a total of 13 over-pressure protection valves.

Ah, yes. That what I was thinkin of.  and yeah, the SLC valves where what I was thinking of. the term "shotgun valves" has been used loosely around here.  Thanks! :)  11 srv's eh. 16 here at RBS... No big deal ;)

Offline HydroDave63

Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #34 on: Mar 11, 2011, 06:25 »
I've read--MSNBC FWIW--that there is radiation detected in the control room of Unit 1.

1000 times normal?  Who knows.


Might be a good time for a separate thread on " Do It Yourself Iodine and Xenon sampling at home"

if the media is right, we should have some interesting air samples in the Pacific Northwest in a day or so...

JustinHEMI05

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #35 on: Mar 11, 2011, 06:26 »
16 here at RBS... No big deal ;)


That would be a function of containment design I would think, considering RBS is 900 something MWs and PB is 1100 something MWs. PB had the upside down lightbulb and torus containment though, AKA Mark I containment.
« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2011, 06:50 by JustinHEMI »

JustinHEMI05

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #36 on: Mar 11, 2011, 06:26 »
Might be a good time for a separate thread on " Do It Yourself Iodine and Xenon sampling at home"

if the media is right, we should have some interesting air samples in the Pacific Northwest in a day or so...

Yeah that is what I am thinking. There is no way I believe that report, if the previous report of intact ECCS are true. 1000 times normal in control room? That is fuel damage.

Again, I recognize that the 8.9 quake near by could cause who knows what damage.
« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2011, 06:30 by JustinHEMI »

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #37 on: Mar 11, 2011, 06:30 »
That would be a function of containment design I would think, considering RBS is 900 something MWs and PB is 1100 something MWs. PB had the upside down lightbulb and torus containment though, AKA Mark II containment.

Yup. We dont have a torus, so does that mean we have a "Mark I"?  987 MW's :D

1000xs normal seems to be absurd, media frenzy.

JustinHEMI05

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #38 on: Mar 11, 2011, 06:33 »
Yup. We dont have a torus, so does that mean we have a "Mark I"?  987 MW's :D

1000xs normal seems to be absurd, media frenzy.

No, you have a Mark III.

Cycoticpenguin

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #39 on: Mar 11, 2011, 06:38 »
No, you have a Mark III.


sheesh.  Im done for the day lol. thanks.

Pman52

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #40 on: Mar 11, 2011, 06:47 »
Charlie,

Check out the last 4 pages.   ;)

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/basic-ref/teachers/03.pdf

Basic knowledge but some good illustrations of GE BWR containments...

thenuttyneutron

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #41 on: Mar 11, 2011, 06:52 »
I am not sure the point? It is a hit against BWRs? BWRs require no power to remain safe, either, and they don't even need an intact RCS. That was the point of everything I said above your post. Throw an 8.9 earthquake into the mix and that changes things. You can't say for sure that you wouldn't be in a similar position had such an event occurred at your plant. The key word in your statement is "intact." Who knows what they have intact. That is what I was trying to figure out based on what crappy info the media is putting out. They've apparently lost "intactness" to a lot of things.

There is a lot of technical BS going out through the news.  The amount of fear being put out is not good for anyone.  The point of the post is to illustrate that as long as the RCS remains intact, a PWR or BWR should be able to stay safe.  The news is reporting that their systems are intact.  One news website is saying that the pressures are rising.  

People are scared by things they don't understand.  I know this all too well because I described a RX startup to a family member once and used the term "taking the reactor critical".  They just about flipped out.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/11/japan.nuclear/index.html?hpt=T1

There is a part that says "remains at a high temperature" because it "cannot cool down."  What does this really mean in the context of the situation?

Now to the average person this sounds scary.  If I were dealing with a similar issue of no power, I would want to stay hot and pressurized until I got my power back.  You would then need to make your 10CFR50.54x call and keep trying to get power back.
« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2011, 07:19 by Nutty Neutron »

Offline Nuclear Renaissance

Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #42 on: Mar 11, 2011, 07:10 »
Seems like a station blackout (loss of offsite power with failure of both divisions of diesel generators). If that is the case, injection is based on steam-driven, DC-power valve systems, so you don't want to depress or else you lose your injection motive force. Couple that with no containment cooling for the steam-driven exhaust (these containment system are AC), and you could have a primary containment venting need. 1000x rad levels in the control room could be in the neighborhood of 10 mr/hr, which is not fuel failure.

The plant is an early BWR-4, similar to Hatch, Brunswick or Browns Ferry. Most US plants have added a Station Blackout Diesel to recharge batteries in such an instance, since it's such a high Core Damage Frequency contributor.

The station blackout procedure is an ugly, beyond design-basis procedure. It just seems to break all the rules of the other Emergency Operating Procedures.
« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2011, 07:16 by Nuclear Renaissance »

Cycoticpenguin

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #43 on: Mar 11, 2011, 07:11 »
food for thought.




thank your renaissance! answers a LOT of questions!



And more garbage...

Apparently they dont have any backup systems....

« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2011, 07:15 by Charlie Murphy »

TWillis

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #44 on: Mar 11, 2011, 07:23 »
From IAEA
Japanese authorities have informed the IAEA’s Incident and Emergency Centre (IEC) that officials are working to restore power to the cooling systems of the Unit 2 reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.  Mobile electricity supplies have arrived at the site.

Japanese officials have also reported that pressure is increasing inside the Unit 1 reactor’s containment, and the officials have decided to vent the containment to lower the pressure.  The controlled release will be filtered to retain radiation within the containment.

Three reactors at the plant were operating at the time of the earthquake, and the water level in each of the reactor vessels remains above the fuel elements, according to Japanese authorities.

The IAEA’s IEC continues to liaise with the Japanese authorities, and is in full response mode to monitor the situation closely round the clock.


JustinHEMI05

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #45 on: Mar 11, 2011, 07:32 »
Seems like a station blackout (loss of offsite power with failure of both divisions of diesel generators). If that is the case, injection is based on steam-driven, DC-power valve systems, so you don't want to depress or else you lose your injection motive force. Couple that with no containment cooling for the steam-driven exhaust (these containment system are AC), and you could have a primary containment venting need. 1000x rad levels in the control room could be in the neighborhood of 10 mr/hr, which is not fuel failure.

The plant is an early BWR-4, similar to Hatch, Brunswick or Browns Ferry. Most US plants have added a Station Blackout Diesel to recharge batteries in such an instance, since it's such a high Core Damage Frequency contributor.

The station blackout procedure is an ugly, beyond design-basis procedure. It just seems to break all the rules of the other Emergency Operating Procedures.

At PB it most certainly was fuel failure.


That said, I agree, like I said above, if hpci and rcic were lost, they will have depressurized... assuming power was lost to all other make up sources, which seems to be the case.
« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2011, 08:52 by JustinHEMI »

JustinHEMI05

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #46 on: Mar 11, 2011, 07:33 »
From IAEA
Japanese authorities have informed the IAEA’s Incident and Emergency Centre (IEC) that officials are working to restore power to the cooling systems of the Unit 2 reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.  Mobile electricity supplies have arrived at the site.

Japanese officials have also reported that pressure is increasing inside the Unit 1 reactor’s containment, and the officials have decided to vent the containment to lower the pressure.  The controlled release will be filtered to retain radiation within the containment.

Three reactors at the plant were operating at the time of the earthquake, and the water level in each of the reactor vessels remains above the fuel elements, according to Japanese authorities.



The IAEA’s IEC continues to liaise with the Japanese authorities, and is in full response mode to monitor the situation closely round the clock.



Seems my earlier prediction was correct.

Fermi2

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #47 on: Mar 11, 2011, 08:51 »
10 mr/hr post shutdown would indicate some sort of fuel failure in a bwr 4.

Offline retired nuke

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #48 on: Mar 11, 2011, 08:51 »
Insert Quote
Quote from: Charlie Murphy on Today at 18:30:23
Yup. We dont have a torus, so does that mean we have a "Mark I"?  987 MW's Cheesy

1000xs normal seems to be absurd, media frenzy.

No, you have a Mark III.

Charlie....
This is why the NRC wants you to be at a plant for 6 months to start license class....to learn your plant

Of course the Nukeworker search feature would have led you to this description of your plant...
http://www.nukeworker.com/maps/facility/RiverBend1.html

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Fermi2

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #49 on: Mar 11, 2011, 09:29 »
i was always happy i wasn't one of the 100 pound twigs that had to volunteer to inspect the downcomers and ring header post outage!

 


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