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01changeup

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #375 on: Mar 16, 2011, 12:29 »
I found this article and was hoping for a reaction from some of the civilians out there (meaning non-active duty folks).
http://theweek.com/article/index/213180/japans-crisis-the-world-rethinks-nuclear-power
And just to add some visual clarity to what we are all feeling:
http://theweek.com/article/slideshow/213178

V/R
01changeup

matthew.b

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #376 on: Mar 16, 2011, 12:34 »
I wondered when the MSM would pick up on this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110316/ts_nm/us_japan_quake

Mixed Oxide Fuel (MOX) - Fukushima Daiichi Unit 3 is using it.  But we all know what ordinary low enriched uranium fuel in the presence of a fast neutron flux breeds.  The Pu word strikes fear in the hearts of most.  Again it is that which people don't understand that they fear the most.

PJ

I figured that it was coming.  But I also assumed that this thread is being watched by outsiders so I didn't make a nudge in that direction.

Offline Nuke of the North

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #377 on: Mar 16, 2011, 12:36 »
Anyone know why they are having difficulty in getting water into their spent fuel pool at Unit 4?  The core is offloaded, which means it is in the spent fuel pool.  This means the fuel pool gates are probably removed which means if they inject water into the Reactor Vessel it will spill over into the Fuel Pool.  If, for some strange reason fuel pool gates are installed then filling the reactor vessel should cause level to overflow into the Fuel Pool Skimmer Surge Tanks and then back into the spent fuel pool.  I don't think they could be designed that differently from our MARK 1.  Maybe they are having flowrate to the vessel issues or maybe they are just that different in design due to the age of the plant.

XF

Latest reports are that the police dept is bringing in water canons (normally used for riot control) to deluge the U4 SFP. Given some of the photos from the plant site, it sounds like (to me at least) there simply isn't much in the way of intact piping left that they are able to find to move water around anywhere.
Es braust unser Panzer Im Sturmwind dahin!

Offline Zog

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #378 on: Mar 16, 2011, 12:39 »
Anyone know the status of power? I heard they had some diesels on site but could not restore power because the switchgear had salt water contamination. I have a 1,000,000 sq-ft warehouse full of switchgear and am wondering if and how I can assist.

Offline Contract SRO

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #379 on: Mar 16, 2011, 12:41 »
I'm a site installation manager at Exelon quad city responsible for the turbine installation. I might have an idea on how to execute a project.  Maybe even a nuclear one.  At a major plant.  In a major outage. On complex capital equipment.  No, I don't feel demeaned or smaller because of your statement.  

Look, this looks like a failure of the personal to adequately address the problem, formulate a plan, and execute a plan to prevent destroying 3 possible 4 reactors and releasing radiation to the environment.  That is all I saying.  I guess I am a lonely voice here and it doesn't mesh with group think, but this failure to me is errors in personal to execute.  The site wants to protect its own, I guess and rush to defend this debacle by blaming the quake/tsunami, and doesn't want to even discuss the possibility that is accident is personal related. Even though a large percentage of the accidents are, indeed, human error.  

Its 95% chance its either personal or corporate failure.  I hope its corporate.  It looks like the equipment held together for a long enough time to provide a safe environment for 2-3 days to allow repairs to be made.   They were not made.  And it doesn't appear or communicated and what the response was, if any.    



I know I am late to the debate but.........just because you are a project manager does not mean your not an IDIOT.  You precious little paper mill would not have been standing much less any people alive to do anything about it.  If your going to comment/debate come with a valid knowledge level or sit on the sidelines and listen and learn.  I am still amazed at people who spend time in a power plant think they have a clue how things work and how they should work.  Anyone with a reasonable amount of training and knowledge are wise enough to know that until you are in the shoes of the people facing the problem you do not have enough information to be able to provide valid input to the situation.  Oh by the way I hope you feel demeaned enough to shut up and listen to people that have a clue........sorry....I will get off of my soap box now.

matthew.b

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #380 on: Mar 16, 2011, 12:46 »
I found this article and was hoping for a reaction from some of the civilians out there (meaning non-active duty folks).
http://theweek.com/article/index/213180/japans-crisis-the-world-rethinks-nuclear-power

From the article
Quote
The U.S. gets about 20 percent of its electricity from nuclear power, but no new plants have been completed since the 1979 Three Mile Island disaster.

Uh, no.

Offline hamsamich

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #381 on: Mar 16, 2011, 12:52 »
"Anyone know the status of power? I heard they had some diesels on site but could not restore power because the switchgear had salt water contamination."

I had heard this too.  2 days ago DG was flown in but didn't work for some reason, plugs were wrong or didn't work correctly (switchgear).  Someone on here a few posts ago said they couldn't fly in DGs but that is certainly not true.  I know it is in contingency plans for some US reactors.  I know there are helicoptors capable of flying in loads larger than a good sized DG.

nukerecruiter

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #382 on: Mar 16, 2011, 12:56 »
I hope I am wrong, but I sense that MFP members are secretly glad this event occurred, just so they can say "see, we told you so."

Read what these folks are saying at:

http://www.mothersforpeace.org/


Having lived in the San Luis Obispo area, I got more than my fill of MFP.

When you're done checking out their page, you may want to see this guy's list of 11 Reasons to Oppose Nuclear Power. Surely, his 6 (yes, 6) blog followers agree:
http://lowcarbonkid.blogspot.com/2011/03/11-reasons-to-oppose-nuclear-power.html

And- here's a great article that showed up on CNN's Opinion page about an hour or so ago- Why Nuclear Power is Necessary:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/03/16/sjoden.nuclear.japan/index.html?hpt=C1

ski2313

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #383 on: Mar 16, 2011, 12:57 »
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2011, 12:58 by ski2313 »

matthew.b

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #384 on: Mar 16, 2011, 12:59 »
Recent still shots of Fukushima Daiichi damage.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366670/Japan-earthquake-tsunami-Radiation-soars-Fukushima-nuclear-plant.html


This picture is obviously newer than the areal photos.  In the areal photos the top of the Unit 4 RB don't look damaged.  Here you can clearly see the not only is the roof damaged but also the side of the building is punctured.


01changeup

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #385 on: Mar 16, 2011, 01:00 »
Here is another article that can't seem to make up it's mind. It goes back and forth from well informed and calming to ill informed and inflammatory. Thoughts?
http://theweek.com/article/index/213152/japans-nuclear-meltdown-is-it-another-chernobyl

V/R
01changeup

P.S. I keep posting these because I know I will get good feedback on what I post. I am more informed than the average joe, but less informed than most people on this site, so this is where I go to vet my information.
V/R
01changeup

Offline Zog

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #386 on: Mar 16, 2011, 01:00 »
I have done projects were we put 3000kVA transformers on rooftops with a helo before, those are not light.

matthew.b

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #387 on: Mar 16, 2011, 01:02 »
"Anyone know the status of power? I heard they had some diesels on site but could not restore power because the switchgear had salt water contamination."

I had heard this too.  2 days ago DG was flown in but didn't work for some reason, plugs were wrong or didn't work correctly (switchgear).  Someone on here a few posts ago said they couldn't fly in DGs but that is certainly not true.  I know it is in contingency plans for some US reactors.  I know there are helicoptors capable of flying in loads larger than a good sized DG.

That was me saying that you couldn't quickly put in an EDG big enough to run the main ECCS equipment.  

No doubt one one big enough to get the vital DC buses, ventilation, and lighting back online would be a major help.

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #388 on: Mar 16, 2011, 01:10 »
http://www.olive-drab.com/images/id_ch54_tarhe_tank_700.jpg



I'm guessing a DG would be no problem.

Only if you already own a CH-54 or Mi-26. No loaners available, sorry...

U.S. forces kept 50 miles away from Japan nuke plant


WASHINGTON (Reuters) – U.S. forces in Japan are not allowed within 50 miles of Japan's crippled nuclear power plant, the Pentagon on Wednesday, explaining measures meant to keep troops safe during a relief operation.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110316/us_nm/us_japan_quake_usa_military_1

Offline hamsamich

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #389 on: Mar 16, 2011, 01:14 »
A 1000KW diesel is about 40000 pounds give or take.  That is under the capacity of some of the largest copters

Mil V-12  can get up about 60000+ pounds, it is russian.


skycrane can do about 20000 pounds.   

don't know what Japan has available....maybe Russia will let them borrow one.

wonder what size DG they are trying to get out there.  I bet they would love to have 1000KW to play with.

Offline Zog

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #390 on: Mar 16, 2011, 01:24 »
Recently my company refurbished approximately 75 portable 5kV generator sets that are used for general emergency and conflict situations and deployed and maintained by the Army’s 249 Engineering Battalion. Other users include FEMA and state governments.
Each unit is specially designed to be easily transported by C-17 military aircraft and all members of the 249th are fully trained on their operation and service.
(I have photos but can't figure out how to post them)

Wonder why these units are not deployed there?

Offline PJMcG

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #391 on: Mar 16, 2011, 01:42 »
Any of my fellow former sailors remember the P250?

Damage control gasoline operated 250 GPM pump to prevent flooding in compartments.  Why not connect multiple fire hoses together, bring in a crane to place the discharge in/over Unit 4 fuel pool, and take suction from the seawater input bay.

It seems to me the elevated radiation levels are in part due to the spent fuel in the pool being uncovered.  Not only will that raise temperature, oxidize zicalloy, generate hydrogen, but it removes shielding.  Flying directly over the top of it in a chopper will expose all on board to radiation.  Reaching in over the top from the side would use the remaining portions of the building as shielding.

I'm not pointing fingers, just asking the question in good faith.  If the USS Ronald Reagan is within a few hundred miles, they'll have P250 (or whatever replaced them) and fire hoses.  The hard part is a crane capable of reaching in over the building.  Once on site it can be done, it's getting the crane on site that is the problem.  Who knows what the conditions of the roads are and where the closest crane is in Japan.
"By its paw shall you know the lion."

Offline Contract SRO

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #392 on: Mar 16, 2011, 02:32 »
A 1000KW diesel is about 40000 pounds give or take.  That is under the capacity of some of the largest copters

Mil V-12  can get up about 60000+ pounds, it is russian.


skycrane can do about 20000 pounds.   

don't know what Japan has available....maybe Russia will let them borrow one.

wonder what size DG they are trying to get out there.  I bet they would love to have 1000KW to play with.

I can not speak for all nuclear plant around world, but for the ones that I have first hand knowledge of the D/Gs are in the 5000 - 7000 kw range and i suspect are in excess of 100,000 pounds.

Offline azkidd

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #393 on: Mar 16, 2011, 02:36 »
From the NEI website

http://resources.nei.org/documents/japan/Used_Fuel_Pools_Key_Facts_March_16_Update.pdf

UPDATE AS OF 10:00 A.M. EDT, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 16:

News reports that high radiation levels led to the evacuation of all workers from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power station are not accurate. Workers were evacuated for about an hour but returned to the site to continue efforts to restore safe conditions at the plant.

Restoration of electrical power to the site was under way at the Daiichi plant as of 6:00 a.m. EDT Wednesday. A temporary cable was being connected between an off-site power line and Daiichi reactor 3. Off-site power has not been available at the site since the earthquake on March 11.

Reactors 1, 2 and 3 at the plant are being cooled with seawater. There is some level of uranium fuel damage at all three units, and containment structure damage is suspected at reactor 2.

Before the earthquake, reactor 4 had been in refueling and was completely defueled. Attempts to provide cooling water to the used fuel pool at reactor 4 by helicopter were not successful. Preparations are being made to inject water into the fuel storage pool using a high-capacity spray pump. There have been two fires inside the reactor containment building at reactor 4, but they have been extinguished. Although the reactor containment building at Unit 4 was damaged, the primary containment vessel remains intact.

At the Fukushima Daini site, all four reactors are safely shut down and cooling functions are being maintained.


matthew.b

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #394 on: Mar 16, 2011, 02:39 »
I can not speak for all nuclear plant around world, but for the ones that I have first hand knowledge of the D/Gs are in the 5000 - 7000 kw range and i suspect are in excess of 100,000 pounds.

Do a 5 to 7 times that number and you're in the ballpark.

A very common arrangement is a pair of EMD 20V645 engines with a generator in the middle.  That combo weighs in at 650,000 lbs.

Offline hamsamich

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #395 on: Mar 16, 2011, 02:57 »
I'm thinking 1000 KW is the best they can hope for flown in, probly less.  By land, who knows?  Probably much more.

Offline PJMcG

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #396 on: Mar 16, 2011, 03:37 »
Marssim,

+1

How about a barge?
"By its paw shall you know the lion."

Offline hamsamich

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #397 on: Mar 16, 2011, 03:37 »
I mean WHEN they can get something there by land.  ;) Gotta be so specific around here!  Nice pics though.

Offline PJMcG

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #398 on: Mar 16, 2011, 04:01 »
I checked the active ships list, we have no LST active.  A few LSD, but we'd have to borrow one back in order to lend it to the Japanese.
"By its paw shall you know the lion."

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #399 on: Mar 16, 2011, 04:10 »
Those pictures are just sad :( Its hard to paint an accurate mental image when we dont see it. 


 


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