Are pay rates slowly dropping?

[gerald.rood]

Hello,
IMO - I believe Eric is correct in his analysis of the current situation.
Ineffective attempts to revive a struggling economy; to rekindle meaningful longterm solutions to financial growth; and internal pressures (now driven more by external conditions to reduce cost) within all commercial sectors are all a part of the current reality. 

More than ever, we need to suck it up and do our best to fully understand and contribute to the ever increasing industry standard goals that result in our client's success. 

Will you see the results of your effort in your next paycheck? Not likely.

However, those of us ("house" or contractor) that believe this is important are likely to continue to also have an opportunity to the next paycheck.
Best of all conditions?  Nope.
Regards, Gerry

[loki]

A stagnet or shrinking paycheck thanks largely to Bartlett's effort at saturating the market through bringing in imports. They are certainly not as productive as the old hands. The only one who would say so obviously has a substantial financial interest in the experiment . Maybe one could be found to replace Eric

[retired nuke]

A stagnet or shrinking paycheck thanks largely to Bartlett's effort at saturating the market through bringing in imports. They are certainly not as productive as the old hands. The only one who would say so obviously has a substantial financial interest in the experiment . Maybe one could be found to replace Eric

Nope - Bartlett isn't bringing in tons of imports. They are a minor ripple in the pool, always have been. Its about overall supply and demand. There are more techs vs the number of jobs, and while there are many great techs, it seems there are also many "warm bodies". The outages are getting shorter. And with deregulation and the price of natural gas driving down the electric market, the utilities aren't spending the money they used to.

RP is about the highest paying trade that has literally no secondary education requirement. Too many of the techs do not have the solid grounding in RP theory necessary to make sound protective decisions, they just do it the way they were taught without understanding why. Unfortunately, Sr pay gets you the mouth breather or the supertech...

[Content1]

RP is about the highest paying trade that has literally no secondary education requirement. Too many of the techs do not have the solid grounding in RP theory necessary to make sound protective decisions, they just do it the way they were taught without understanding why. Unfortunately, Sr pay gets you the mouth breather or the supertech...

     No secondary education?  I have a bachelor's degree and half of my degree's courses were general-education courses unrelated to any field.   They hardly make me a better tech.   I went through full oral boards at Rocky Flats and West Valley New York.  I went through six months of training at the Lawrence Livermore national Lab. HP training at McGuire was a three-week course with closed book testing.  I had an informal board at Peach Bottom.  I got my "Non Secondary" training in a six year stint with the Navy.  I feel you may overvalue college work, where all a college degree means you sat in a class and passed tests and persevered to graduate.
      Before every job, we go through training. With the short outages, to go from a junior to a senior can take eight years.  If during that eight years the utility only used the junior at the step off pad, that is the utilities' fault.  Just to go to a job you often fly across the country, pay up to $1000 out of your own pocket to travel, prepaid housing, before you receive a dime.  If there are techs out there with marginal training and experience, it is because of special "home boy"" relationships that are exceptions to the rule.  A super tech is in the eye of the beholder.   If the pay was much lower, there are other options career-wise that don't require the traveling.   I was a teacher and left for the higher pay. I have been to two years of law school and worked as a paralegal.  I left them all to become an HP for the money.  Cut our pay and the little brats or the winey clients become appealing again.

[loki]

Nope - Bartlett isn't bringing in tons of imports. They are a minor ripple in the pool, always have been. Its about overall supply and demand. There are more techs vs the number of jobs, and while there are many great techs, it seems there are also many "warm bodies". The outages are getting shorter. And with deregulation and the price of natural gas driving down the electric market, the utilities aren't spending the money they used to.

RP is about the highest paying trade that has literally no secondary education requirement. Too many of the techs do not have the solid grounding in RP theory necessary to make sound protective decisions, they just do it the way they were taught without understanding why. Unfortunately, Sr pay gets you the mouth breather or the supertech...

. That "ripple" is the camels nose into the tent. Imports cost us natives money

[Chimera]

RP is about the highest paying trade that has literally no secondary education requirement.

A trade with secondary education requirements?  By "secondary education" I'm assuming you mean college of one sort or another.  So, tell me, what are the secondary education requirements for the other trades, e.g., pipefitters, welders, laborers, operators, etc.?  Or are you now classifying an Engineer or a Lawyer as a "trade"?

[retired nuke]

The "skilled" trades have actual apprentiship programs, with training at the union hall, testing and mentoring by senior Journeymen. While it is not college, you cannot advance without it for the most part. That is secondary education. 
OPs is now pretty much looking for college degrees. You can be an AO without it, but you won't advance far in todays comeptetive work environment. College is secondary education.
RP has nothing. House has initial training, if you are already a Sr. Takes about 3 months. But you can become a Sr RP tech (over time) without a basic understanding of many RP functions. All ya gotta do is pass the test, and there are plenty of study guides out there that will teach you the answers.

[germanjawcracker]

It is a crying shame when Atlantic pays material handlers (forklift drivers) 30.00 an hr and Bartlett pays ANSI 3.1 SR RP's 28.00 in the Duke system. Something is bad wrong with this picture. I have said it all along, without the union, this will continue to happen.

[Chimera]

It is a crying shame when Atlantic pays material handlers (forklift drivers) 30.00 an hr and Bartlett pays ANSI 3.1 SR RP's 28.00 in the Duke system. Something is bad wrong with this picture. I have said it all along, without the union, this will continue to happen.

If you don't like the pay rate at a given location, don't go.  When the Utility starts having problems because they can't get enough Techs to show up, the pay rate goes up . . . as we've seen over and over again.  That doesn't take a Union.  It just takes some initiative and some determination.  Will the Union tell you to take the job for what is perceived as sub-par pay rates or will "they" stand by the Techs and help bargain for an increase?  Wait a minute . . . that's what Bartlett and the other job shops are already doing.  Okay, I guess I missed something.  Explain to me again why we "need" a union versus practicing our own selfish self-interest?

[retired nuke]

It is a crying shame when Atlantic pays material handlers (forklift drivers) 30.00 an hr and Bartlett pays ANSI 3.1 SR RP's 28.00 in the Duke system. Something is bad wrong with this picture. I have said it all along, without the union, this will continue to happen.

A material handler can get critical items across the site, safely, in the right place and time, with little more direction than a list or work order. In many states, driving a forklift actually requires a State license. OSHA requires documented training and an evaluation of skills. Forklift drivers seldom get perdiem.

An RP tech can hold up a project for a shift and does little to keep production on schedule. They are seen as a legally required impediment, and too many RP techs work at slowing things down. RP techs almost always get perdiem.

Don't like the pay - don't go there. Think you can keep up with the material handlers? Put in for their job, and see if you can qualify...

[germanjawcracker]

I did and i get 2.00 an hr more. Duke gives a forklift class for free. Why bother with RP when i can sit and ride and no more NUF tests.

[germanjawcracker]

If you don't like the pay rate at a given location, don't go.  When the Utility starts having problems because they can't get enough Techs to show up, the pay rate goes up . . . as we've seen over and over again.  That doesn't take a Union.  It just takes some initiative and some determination.  Will the Union tell you to take the job for what is perceived as sub-par pay rates or will "they" stand by the Techs and help bargain for an increase?  Wait a minute . . . that's what Bartlett and the other job shops are already doing.  Okay, I guess I missed something.  Explain to me again why we "need" a union versus practicing our own selfish self-interest?

Duke has been short RP'sfor the last few years and nothing changes, cover more jobs with intermittent coverage.

[BetaAnt]

Just waiting for the accident/incident caused by inadequate RP coverage.  

But wait. The utility will discover it is the fault of the 'sacrificial' RP tech and life goes on.  

Until the regulators (NRC, DOE or EPA) step in and require specific RP job coverage requirements, the corporate bean-counters will continue to short-change and cutback on Radiation Protection.  

Up until deregulation, a medical staff was maintained at most sites. Now all ERO people are trained in first aid and medical help is provided by the ambulance EMTs.  

YOU ARE A FREE AGENT AND YOU DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT THE LOW PAY RATES!

Find another line of work. I understand the medical field will be picking up (nursing aids). Otherwise, become a forklift driver and join the union @ $30/hr.  

Now ST*U and get over it.

BA  

[germanjawcracker]

Just waiting for the accident/incident caused by inadequate RP coverage.  

But wait. The utility will discover it is the fault of the 'sacrificial' RP tech and life goes on.  

Until the regulators (NRC, DOE or EPA) step in and require specific RP job coverage requirements, the corporate bean-counters will continue to short-change and cutback on Radiation Protection.  

Up until deregulation, a medical staff was maintained at most sites. Now all ERO people are trained in first aid and medical help is provided by the ambulance EMTs.  

YOU ARE A FREE AGENT AND YOU DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT THE LOW PAY RATES!

Find another line of work. I understand the medical field will be picking up (nursing aids). Otherwise, become a forklift driver and join the union @ $30/hr.  

Now ST*U and get over it.

No unions in SC and i have new tires on my forklift.

[BetaAnt]

QUIT BLAMING BARTLETT. THE CLIENT SETS THE RATE! 

Bartlett has overhead costs and skims ~15% off the top of your rate. 
(WARNING MATH EXAMPLE AHEAD) 

WinoNuclear is having an outage. BNI bids to provide support for the outage along with other companies.
The RP techs are paid $30/hr and the utility is billed at $45/hr. (not including PD) 
The RP techs are paid $45/hr for overtime and the utility is billed $45/hr.
Based on an outage workweek the RP tech grosses $2640. 
BNI grosses $3240, a net of $600/week. 
Out of this $600/week-technician, BNI must pay multiple support people (office workers and support staff) and business development costs.   

As with any economy, it comes down to supply and demand. As long as the utilities overwork the RP techs, mistakes will be made eventually. When enough mistakes are made or one MAJOR screw-up occurs, call in the lawyers and let the class actions begin. 

It will occur. It is just a matter when. 

Future WalMart greeter,

BA 

[Marlin]

Future WalMart greeter,

BA  

  To stay on topic at least a little, pay scale has been declining for a long time but then so has the responsibility of the RadTech. If you are hired as an ANSI qualified tech (RadTechs fit the generic technician category) the standard is just not that high. The industry has come from very little direction for a RadTech to the heavily programmatic environment today. I remember an outage done with the standard six RWPs that did little but account for exposure with a direction to contact the area RadTech for HP controls, now every requirement is spelled out with little or no latitude for the technician covering the job.

 

  HouseDad put it very well.

The "skilled" trades have actual apprentiship programs, with training at the union hall, testing and mentoring by senior Journeymen. While it is not college, you cannot advance without it for the most part. That is secondary education.  
OPs is now pretty much looking for college degrees. You can be an AO without it, but you won't advance far in todays comeptetive work environment. College is secondary education.
RP has nothing. House has initial training, if you are already a Sr. Takes about 3 months. But you can become a Sr RP tech (over time) without a basic understanding of many RP functions. All ya gotta do is pass the test, and there are plenty of study guides out there that will teach you the answers.

[Rennhack]

QUIT BLAMING BARTLETT. THE CLIENT SETS THE RATE! 

Bartlett has overhead costs and skims ~15% off the top of your rate. 
(WARNING MATH EXAMPLE AHEAD) 

WinoNuclear is having an outage. BNI bids to provide support for the outage along with other companies.
The RP techs are paid $30/hr and the utility is billed at $45/hr. (not including PD) 
The RP techs are paid $45/hr for overtime and the utility is billed $45/hr.
Based on an outage workweek the RP tech grosses $2640. 
BNI grosses $3240, a net of $600/week. 
Out of this $600/week-technician, BNI must pay multiple support people (office workers and support staff) and business development costs.   

You have the right idea, but are missing some key points that I have mentioned before.  As a small business owner myself, I have to pay myself payroll, as well as others.

Lets say your pay rate is $30/hr. (Which is set by the utility, not the vendor)
There is around 30% in additional costs directly related to that pay rate (Uncle Sam related expenses), and about 10% for company overhead, for a total of 40% multiplier required to staff a position with no profit.  An additional 10% profit is common.  Some times the profit is 5%, depends how bad they want to win.  So you are talking about $1.5/hr profit on your $30/hr pay.  Maybe $3/hr profit on a "fat" contract.

Lets say you work for a vendor at a site for a year.  The vendor pays you for 10 vacation days and 11 holidays.  That means the vendor can only bill for 1912 hours, but has to pay you for 2080 hours.  Or $62,400 in payable wages, but only $57,400 in billable wages.  There is FICA that the employer pays in addition to what you pay, of 6.2%.  They pay an additional 1.5% to medicare.  They have to pay into the state unemployment tax/insurance, then they have to pay Federal unemployment tax/insurance.  The worst other than FICA, is workers comp, which can be 5%, or as much as 20% for higher risk job titles.. like anything with nuclear or radiation in the title.  Then there is General Liability insurance which starts at 2%.  Then you add in payroll processing, loan on payroll (you know, cause they pay you NOW, but don't get paid by the client for 90 days.  Add in PPE and drug tests.  Some times even medical insurance and 401k match... but lets be realistic.

So:

9% for Holidays/vacation.
6.2% FICA
1.5% Medicare
1.3% Federal/State Unemployment
10% Workers Comp
2% General Liability
2% Payroll Processing/Loan
32% Sub Total

So, at 32% 'Direct Costs', they are taking a LOSS, because none of that includes overhead of %12%.  44% would be break even, anything above that is profit.  The costs vary a little from company to company, but those numbers are a good thumb rule.  Some job titles have higher Workers Comp rates, it varies on the job title, the state, and your carrier.  Other numbers could get better like not having to finance payroll, and slightly lower liability insurance.  The big numbers are very consistent though.  The larger companies may get a small advantage over the small companies on factoring payroll or insurance, but they have to make up for it with a larger staff/overhead, so the bottom line is about the same.

$30.00/hr pay rate
$9.60 in Direct costs
$3.60 Overhead
$3.00/hr profit
$46.20 billing rate.

You had $30 and $45 which sounds reasonable, but $3/hr * 72 hrs during an outage week is only $216/wk profit. Even if you counted 'overhead' as profit, which you cant, it would only be an additional $260 a week for overhead.  You know, those recruiters, people in payroll, and managers.  There cost is real, not profit.


So, on a 40 hr week, the vendor has to pay out of pocket $1200 to you, $384 in direct costs, $144 in overhead a week NOW ($1,728) to bill the client $1,848 in 90 days to get $120 in profit.  I don't know about you, but I could make a better ROI in other ways with less headache. 

[hamsamich]

Specialization is one issue that probably has a larger effect on pay than we realize.  An RP is a very specialized job.  There isn't much call in the world for an RP tech vs. say a welder.  And it is a strange and tortuous path to become an RP.  Can be good and bad.  The good is when there is a larger call for RP than techs available, then the pay could go up.  Also people might get overworked due to a shortage, not enough RP, forces RP techs out who don't want to deal with that, pay could go up even more.  The bad is we are specialized.  Can't really do much else that makes good money unless happenstance.  A less specialized trade could relatively more quickly change to something else, like a welder might have started out as an ironworker and he can go back to that maybe could branch into something else.  In a way some of us are stuck for better or for worse unless you want to endure more than an average amount of pain to try something else.

[BetaAnt]

@ Rennhack... It was a ballpark figure that simplest minds could wrap around. 

TMI can give you a headache when it come to payroll and business expense paperwork. 

It has been over 20 yrs since I submitted my last bid to a client and I do not have my spread(cheat)sheet in front of me. 

All in all, this serves as one example as to why rates are stagnant or going down.

Eric ain't low-balling, it's the corporate bean counters. Why else would there be a massive holiday layoff before before the end of an outage? It saves money on expenses and can be claimed as a quarterly savings (translation - Christmas bonus for the corporation). 

McDonalds is hiring in South Dakota, starting at $17/hr. 'Do you want fries with that?'

Future WalMart greeter (taking lessons from Walter),

BA 

[Content1]

Specialization is one issue that probably has a larger effect on pay than we realize.  An RP is a very specialized job.  There isn't much call in the world for an RP tech vs. say a welder.  And it is a strange and tortuous path to become an RP.  Can be good and bad.  The good is when there is a larger call for RP than techs available, then the pay could go up.  Also people might get overworked due to a shortage, not enough RP, forces RP techs out who don't want to deal with that, pay could go up even more.  The bad is we are specialized.  Can't really do much else that makes good money unless happenstance.  A less specialized trade could relatively more quickly change to something else, like a welder might have started out as an ironworker and he can go back to that maybe could branch into something else.  In a way some of us are stuck for better or for worse unless you want to endure more than an average amount of pain to try something else.

Specialization? I say, to the contrary, that most RP's out there are very generalized in their training. There are very few RPs to join the ranks that only have an RP school or the Navy with no further training. I have a BA in education, two years of law school, one year of electronic engineering schooling, Navy nuclear training, and the year of teacher credentialing. These other jobs I left for the money that RPs get paid. I can also go into government jobs. Why don't I work them now in the off-season? Because we elect to take some time off after working three months of 12-hour days. If we save our money properly we can live well enough until we have to leave to do outages.  We are not specialized; that the only thing that we can do is work as an RP, the other choices simply pay less.    If the pay keeps dropping in relation to other choices like the forklift driver, I may become a forklift driver.
There are a lot of responsibilities you take on as an RP is compared to a forklift driver. If they choose to keep paying RP is less and less you'll simply have less RPs. The problem for the utility is with the departure of experience RPs, and the vacuum filled with less trained; we will have more mistakes and larger fines. I can give a comparison in real life like what happened during World War II. The first six months of the war the Japanese had experienced pilots, and it seems they couldn't be beat.  When more the experienced pilots left the field (in this case due to death) the newer pilots couldn't compete with the well-trained Americans.
If the bean counters continue to overwork experience techs with under manning of personnel, they will get the result of having to deal with less generally trained techs for the less trained "specialized" techs that do not "think outside the box" with other life experiences brought in from other fields. I found some of the best ideas I've seen the field came from techs from off-site locations that brought in new ideas to management who would listen.  When these "generally trained" techs are gone, you'll have to start to deal with problems they never imagined you would be facing.
Finally, the "generalized tech" has learned to draw from his other experiences and think on his feet when faced with problems not covered by procedure that require careful reasoning to solve. It has been said the submarine SSN593 the Thresher went down, it was partially due to people not thinking for the unexpected situation when their emergency blow lines froze up when they tried to surface. You need people that have learned how to "think" in response to a situation with quick analysis and good logic.  You can't train someone to handle every situation since many have never been encountered.

[Content1]

You have the right idea, but are missing some key points that I have mentioned before.  As a small business owner myself, I have to pay myself payroll, as well as others.

Lets say your pay rate is $30/hr. (Which is set by the utility, not the vendor)
There is around 30% in additional costs directly related to that pay rate (Uncle Sam related expenses), and about 10% for company overhead, for a total of 40% multiplier required to staff a position with no profit.  An additional 10% profit is common.  Some times the profit is 5%, depends how bad they want to win.  So you are talking about $1.5/hr profit on your $30/hr pay.  Maybe $3/hr profit on a "fat" contract.

Lets say you work for a vendor at a site for a year.  The vendor pays you for 10 vacation days and 11 holidays.  That means the vendor can only bill for 1912 hours, but has to pay you for 2080 hours.  Or $62,400 in payable wages, but only $57,400 in billable wages.  There is FICA that the employer pays in addition to what you pay, of 6.2%.  They pay an additional 1.5% to medicare.  They have to pay into the state unemployment tax/insurance, then they have to pay Federal unemployment tax/insurance.  The worst other than FICA, is workers comp, which can be 5%, or as much as 20% for higher risk job titles.. like anything with nuclear or radiation in the title.  Then there is General Liability insurance which starts at 2%.  Then you add in payroll processing, loan on payroll (you know, cause they pay you NOW, but don't get paid by the client for 90 days.  Add in PPE and drug tests.  Some times even medical insurance and 401k match... but lets be realistic.

So:

9% for Holidays/vacation.
6.2% FICA
1.5% Medicare
1.3% Federal/State Unemployment
10% Workers Comp
2% General Liability
2% Payroll Processing/Loan
32% Sub Total

So, at 32% 'Direct Costs', they are taking a LOSS, because none of that includes overhead of %12%.  44% would be break even, anything above that is profit.  The costs vary a little from company to company, but those numbers are a good thumb rule.  Some job titles have higher Workers Comp rates, it varies on the job title, the state, and your carrier.  Other numbers could get better like not having to finance payroll, and slightly lower liability insurance.  The big numbers are very consistent though.  The larger companies may get a small advantage over the small companies on factoring payroll or insurance, but they have to make up for it with a larger staff/overhead, so the bottom line is about the same.

$30.00/hr pay rate
$9.60 in Direct costs
$3.60 Overhead
$3.00/hr profit
$46.20 billing rate.

You had $30 and $45 which sounds reasonable, but $3/hr * 72 hrs during an outage week is only $216/wk profit. Even if you counted 'overhead' as profit, which you cant, it would only be an additional $260 a week for overhead.  You know, those recruiters, people in payroll, and managers.  There cost is real, not profit.


So, on a 40 hr week, the vendor has to pay out of pocket $1200 to you, $384 in direct costs, $144 in overhead a week NOW ($1,728) to bill the client $1,848 in 90 days to get $120 in profit.  I don't know about you, but I could make a better ROI in other ways with less headache. 

All you have said is quite true, running a business takes careful budgeting and planning.  But being a tech is equally daunting task and if the pay drops to the point of non-profitability, we can't afford to stay.  I remember one season in 2009 at North Anna and Surry the outages were 2 and 2 1/2 weeks;  I couldn't afford to stay and I went DOE for three years before I checked out the situation and came back.

[GLW]

.....Navy nuclear training,......

Which Navy nuke school class and section and which rating did you graduate in?

Just trying to get a perspective on your perspective,...

[Content1]

Which Navy nuke school class and section and which rating did you graduate in?

Just trying to get a perspective on your perspective,...

I went the Navy in 1974 as a Nuclear Machinist Mate.  That is the majority of what the Navy needed.  I actually aced the test for the ET, but they did not need many ET's. I attended Mare Island NPS to Idaho Falls Enteprise Prototype, then served on fast attack submarines.

[SloGlo]

McDonalds is hiring in South Dakota, starting at $17/hr. 'Do you want fries with that?'

they paying dee-um?  eye kin speek the language.   

[Chimera]

I have a BA in education, two years of law school, one year of electronic engineering schooling, Navy nuclear training, and the year of teacher credentialing. These other jobs I left for the money that RPs get paid.

Jobs?  All you show is a predilection for being a professional student.  When you classed up at MINSY, what was your class number?