How NOT to get a job

[Already Gone]

There are loads of information about how to get work.  I thought I'd reverse engineer this by giving an example of what NOT to do.
I placed a posting for an entry-level job on another website.  (Sorry Mike, that's where the company has an account.  I'll work on that.)
The posting contained limited information.  I didn't want people to disqualify themselves from sending a resume just because the dates or places didn't fit.  I wanted a variety of resumes, so I could cull the best, and see who was available from those.
The instructions were simple:  Reply by email with your resume.

One of the replies was this one:

i have had unescorted access to 5 nuclear power plants and am currently at one - can u give me location ,hours , pay rate bonuses & duration of outage


Let me count the ways that this person blew it.

1) The instructions were to reply with a resume.  This is not a resume.  If you cannot follow the very first (and very simple) instruction that I give you, we're not going to have a successful working relationship.

2) If you are asking someone to consider you for a job, you owe that person the courtesy of making your communication as easy to read as possible.  Failing to use capitalization, punctuation, complete sentences, and good grammar not only makes you look illiterate, but inconsiderate as well.  No job for you.

3) Way to make this all about what you want instead of what you have to offer!!  Before this person tells me his name, he expects me to tell him all the particulars of the job - particularly the money part.  Apparently he isn't going to bother to spend the three seconds it would take to attach a resume unless there is a bonus and lots of overtime involved.  You are competing with many, many, many, oh, so very many other people who have qualifications that they want to tell me about.  Don't make me beg to hear about yours.  I'm not going to.

4) The phrase "can you give me" is never well received - especially when you neglect to use the word "please."

I'm aware of the fact that not everyone who sees my job post will want to accept the job.  In truth, I wasn't offering a corner office with stock options and a private jet.  It was an entry-level job.  Just give me the chance to offer the job if you have the (limited) qualifications that are required.  If you say no (because you won't be available or the money isn't as good as you can get elsewhere, or you just don't like the weather at the job location... or whatever) I can live with that.  But if you are going to make it an ordeal to hire you, I won't.  If you make it blatantly obvious that you are shopping for the best deal, it will probably never come your way.

[justatech]

Well stated, Beer Court.

Now can u tell me about da mula?      PLEASE...................

Sorry, I couldn't resist. 

[SloGlo]

par haps it wuzzant only da responder who blew it.  yinz axed four a "resume" .  iz dat two help ya resume da job search?  now iffen yinz had axed fer a "resumè" may bee it wood have werked bettor fore yew.

[Roll Tide]

There are loads of information about how to get work.  I thought I'd reverse engineer this by giving an example of what NOT to do.

I normally read "Pearls Before Swine" for this information. Pastis may have to steal some of these for Rats' continuing job-hunting adventures.
Excellent post (and advice)!

[Fermi2]

What was life like before Pearls Before Swine, Dilbert and Pooch Cafe'?

Mike

[illegalsmile]

What was life like before Pearls Before Swine, Dilbert and Pooch Cafe'?

Mike

Kinda like "Leave it to Beaver" and "Father Knows Best".......

[bradley535]

I am an EWS qualified Navy Vet. I just got out and am now on the hunt for a job. I know that I'm just starting out in the civilian world, but I also know that I have a lot to offer a company. All this in mind, I set out looking for a job as a RO or SRO. Exelon called me up a month prior to my Navy release date. I thought, "Wow, these guys are really on the ball."
Well, I got set up for an interview with the Dresden plant and was ready to put my best foot forward. I bought a suit for all upcoming interviews, prepared a nice resume package, and got to the interview 10minutes early. Everything was going well until that point.
One thing that those giving me the interview didn't seem to understand was that I was interviewing the company as well the company interviewing me. Five minutes past the scheduled interview, someone comes out to say that they are running late and that I'll have to wait ten more minutes. Twenty minutes later, I get told it'll be another five minutes. I felt like I was in an episode of Seinfeld. This was getting rediculous. I finally get invited in to the interview at 11:30, and I meet the interviewers as they are finishing up lunch. Never mind that I was given no such option, nor was I going to get one until the end of the interview. As if this was not enough, as I am answering questions one of my two interviewers is finishing up her desert as opposed to listening to the interview in question.
When the interview is over, they ask if I have any questions. I can only guess that this is a question they are not usually getting a real response to. They were taken aback, as if they weren't really expecting a question, when I asked, "If offered a position with your company, what sets yourselves apart from everyone else that would make me want to work here?" After taking a moment to compose themselves, they gave the response of being the biggest and most successful company. I asked more questions about housing in the area and educational opportunities, but after a few more of their answers I could tell that they just wanted the interview to end. I obliged them, left, and if offered a position I will be refusing it.
Interviewers need to understand that they represent the company, and that they are being evaluated as much as the interviewee. I have four more interviews lined up in the next few weeks, and am having to pick and choose what positions and locations are worth scheduling time for. I'm certain that I will find a position within the next few months, but it will not be with a company that doesn't appreciate what I'm bringing with me; hard work, intellegence, and the right attitude. I expect no less than the same from those I will work with and for.

[Loffy Muffin]

With the job market this tight, the applicants look to screen the employers now.  I don't send a resume (to recruiters) because I don't want 10 phone calls per day with some joker trying to fill some crap job in poduck Illinois at 1995 wages (yeah, I know.  there is soooooo much opportunity, no wait.  the people are great!).  If it is a contract position "rate,PD, location", then details about the job which I already have an idea about anyway.  A direct position I find about the job, then the wages.  Out of courtesy.  For now. 

Companies have been feeding the workers a bunch of crap for years about, "don't worry about the money.  worry about working hard for the company and everything will work out the best".  Ah, nope.  Work hard  so they can lay you off at the first opportunity. Or pile a bunch of work on you with no OT pay.   Most of us had to "eat it" because the employer held the hammer.  but, things change don't they.  With most of the baby boomers that went into nuke/engineer/oil/power in the 1960/70's at or near retirement, they can't roll out crap wages and expect to pick and choose like they have been for the last 25 years.  Companies have been crapping all over people for years, treating professionals like a commodity to buy and sell with little regard to the impact.  The companies have basically created a group of mercenary workers and its now bitting them in the arse.  booo freakin Hooo...

Bradley, nice job.  A swabby with no commercial experience looking at the nations largest nuke power producer and asking them why should I consider working for you?   What can you do for me?    Hiiiiilarious!  You are my hero. 

[Fermi2]

It's like the star Junior High Quarterback telling the Superbowl Champions they need to build their team around him.

What an ID 10 T.

Son guys with your experience are a penny a dozen if you think they are most companies gave a darn about what you want to say then guess again. Now if you had any commercial experience you might be in the league where you can ask questions and be taken seriously. Keep that in mind.

Mike

[ddklbl]

It's like the star Junior High Quarterback telling the Superbowl Champions they need to build their team around him.

What an ID 10 T.

Son guys with your experience are a penny a dozen if you think they are most companies gave a darn about what you want to say then guess again. Now if you had any commercial experience you might be in the league where you can ask questions and be taken seriously. Keep that in mind.

Bradley, nice job.  A swabby with no commercial experience looking at the nations largest nuke power producer and asking them why should I consider working for you?   What can you do for me?    Hiiiiilarious!  You are my hero. 

Loffy and BZ,

The two of you can get off your high horses anytime.  I don't think it's too much to ask to be treated with respect, regardless of your experience.  I'd go ahead and add the two of you to my list of teeth-to-not-piss-on ... , but I don't think any of us would lose any sleep either way.

Just a hunch.

[Fermi2]

You earn respect. They gave the guy an interview, what else does he want, he has minimal qualifications, right now real SROs are bouncing from utility to utility, you learn to be grateful for what you receive. When he gets time on a real nuke he'll get the respect he wants, well maybe.

I just found his attitude hilarious, it doesn't seem to me Exelon will be missing a lot if they pass on him.

I call them as I see them, sorry if they offends anyone..

Mike

[ddklbl]

You earn respect. They gave the guy an interview, what else does he want, he has minimal qualifications, right now real SROs are bouncing from utility to utility, you learn to be grateful for what you receive. When he gets time on a real nuke he'll get the respect he wants, well maybe.

I just found his attitude hilarious, it doesn't seem to me Exelon will be missing a lot if they pass on him.

I call them as I see them, sorry if they offends anyone..

Mike

With so many real SRO's bouncing from utility to utility, it's begging to be asked why so many navy EOOW's and EWS's are getting hired for these same jobs, considering the OP barely has the minimal qualifications to even be privileged with the honor of basking in commercial nuclear powers greatness.

Excuse me while I vomit on your pompousness.

[hamsamich]

good for  you bradley!  when you've got it going on and you know it turning down jobs from companies you will probably regret working for later on is a great idea.  it has nothing to do with being ex-navy.  I know zilla is going to jump on anyone who thinks they are worth something before they've done what he's done, especially if they are ex-navy.  but heck man, you probably saved yourself from working with/for guys like zilla!  there is no reason to be treated like that just because you are new.  I guess if I really needed a job I would take it but it doesn't sound like you are in that position.  I've heard bad things about Exelon, but you could always use them to get your lic. and then leave for a better company. 

I know some higher ups who do interviews and they do like ex-navy to be on the list, but your attitude has to be right.  being picky about the company you work for is a GOOD thing in their eyes, so keep up the good work.  some plants are having a hard time maintaining basic lic. staffing levels, and there is a reason for that.  good people including ex-navy nukes who want and are able to be SROs are not as easy to find as some may say, if you really are the man Bradley, I say wait until you get a fit that is good for you.   

[xobxdoc]

. As if this was not enough, as I am answering questions one of my two interviewers is finishing up her desert as opposed to listening to the interview in question.
When the interview is over, they ask if I have any questions. I can only guess that this is a question they are not usually getting a real response to. They were taken aback, as if they weren't really expecting a question, when I asked, "If offered a position with your company, what sets yourselves apart from everyone else that would make me want to work here?" After taking a moment to compose themselves,



She was probably resisting that urge to blow pie through her nose. I'd be surprised if you got an offer anywhere with that attitude. Those interviewers aren't waiting around all day for the honor of interviewing you.

[Fermi2]

Actually people who work with me or for me never seem to have any problems with me, there's a few posting on this board who do or have done both. I'm not pompous in the least and my analogies are true. I get along with others very well even though I tend to be edxtremely blunt and straight forward, it's like my father used to say, Mikey if you worry about watching what you say then you won't get a whole lot of worth said. The first sentence of his post says he was EWS qualified as if that means anything in the real world. EWS is about what he needs to be a trainee NLO. NLO do exactly what an EWS did in the Navy, it's certainly not an indicator that he can actually operate the Control Room of anything but a start up source. By all means ask questions but if the utility doesn't seem to want to answer them don't be offended, they have no reason to respect you as you haven't really accomplished anything. Did anyone stop to think maybe the people who were eating in the interview hadn't had an opportunity to eat that day and might not get one the rest of the day? Granted I certainly wouldn't eat during an interview but if someone did so when I interviewed so be it. Also, the thought a NUB is interviewing a company still strikes me as totally hilarious. He'll live.

Mike

[Loffy Muffin]

I wasn't being sarcastic..for once.  I think its great he laid the smack on the Exelon.  I have heard from multiple sources the Exelon is one of the worst places to work for as far as hours and pay for the hours (like no pay).  I only wish I could have seen it.  I had only did the " what can you jokers do for me, I want to see the resume of the people I am going to work for before I take a job" bit once, and it felt great, but I already had a job the interviewer was a clown so I just unloaded on him. 

Probabably not the smartest thing to do.  Bradely might of talked himself out of a direct SRO gig..but what the hay.  Seriously, Bradley, you might eeeease back a little bit until you get a job offer you like.  Don't do the "what can you do for me" line anymore if you want to work.  I could not get away doing that, its an automatic DQ.  It feels good at the moment,  but eating and staying dry feels good also.

Power to the workers! 

[hamsamich]

whether or not EWS will add value to a CR operator candidate has no specific value here.  we are talking about getting hired.  and it just so happens that SOME interviewers think an EWS qualified guy is a better bet, whether it is true or not simply doesn't matter when you are talking about gettting hired.  I've heard you are a good guy to work with Mike, despite your opinionations (is this a word?  ).  But without knowing that, you would be the last guy on nukeworker I would want to work with or for.  I love honesty though, but I think you feel as if you have to pick a side or you are vassilating, which isn't always true.  Anyway, why shouldn't a new guy get to pick if more than one company is after him, assuming he will get a crack at another plant in a reasonable amount of time.  When I bought a car for the first time, I didn't tell the salesman "I'm new at this, I will take whatever price you offer".  But a got raped anyway.   Love ya, mean it.

[ddklbl]

Loffy, I guess I was reading a little more sarcasm in your post than was intended.  My bad.

Respect isn't something to be earned, it's something to be lost.  If a company treated me like shit in my interview, then they made the decision easy for me.  Any good job interview should be two way.  They interview you, you interview them.  I had three job offers.  2 SRO's and an NLO position.  The company who offered the NLO position was gracious enough to admit that they couldn't compete at that time and would understand if I didn't take the job.  It was a very genial environment.  I am sad that I didn't take that job, because I admire them for the way they treated me in that interview, and in a few years, if things change, they will be the first place I apply again. 

BZ, your analogies are way off.  I think you do more disservice for guys trying to cross over from the navy than you help.  Calling someone an idiot because he expects reciprocity from an employer is deplorable.

I'm not pompous in the least [...]  the thought a NUB is interviewing a company still strikes me as totally hilarious. He'll live.

Always good for a laugh.

[Already Gone]

As the starter of this thread, I must say that I am a little surprised that it has taken this long for it to get interesting.

Bradley, Karma to you for showing the other side of the coin.  I have no problem with an applicant asking questions and expecting honest answers.  Most of the people I talk with have tons of questions.  I note that all of those you mentioned were actually things that they should have been telling you without being asked.  If you are hiring for a full-time "permanent" job, you are not only offering a job, you are asking a person to move to your town, accept your corporate culture, hang his future (at least a big part of it) on your company's decisions, and (this is the big one) forsaking all others - keep himself only unto you until death (or downsizing) do you part.  Tis is why you "offer" the job to the best candidate instead of clamping him into a set of irons and conscripting him to a life of labor at your control panel.

Yeah, Exelon is hiring.  So is Dominion, Ameren, Constellation, Entergy, Sempra, Mirant, FPLE, FENOC.........

Respect and civility are the starting point.  An applicant deserves to be treated with consideration for the fact that he has invested his time, put himself on display, subjected himself to scrutiny, and came to you.

Having said that, the "squeeze" on personnel, or whatever, does not justify an applicant behaving like an ass.  In the end, we are all people, and a little consideration for the other guy speaks loudly about what kind of employer/employee you are going to be.

Exelon denied an applicant the consideration of offering him lunch, note also that they made their current employees work through their lunch to catch up with the interviews that they (Oh NO! Not EXELON!!!) overscheduled.  That alone should have been a red flag warning what kind of employer they would be.  They won't miss this applicant, but people born blind don't miss the sunsets either.

On the other end of the rope, an applicant denied me the courtesy of telling me his name and politely asking me to consider him for the job.  He won't miss all those paychecks that I won't be sending him.  There are plenty of others out there - maybe not as good, but he'll never be burdened with knowing that.

Those people who politely inquired about the job were politely answered and some of them were hired.

The argument here is not about who gets to be arrogant, dismissive, inconsiderate and rude.  Nobody deserves that "privilege" no matter if you are the only qualified applicant or if you are offering the last job on Earth.  If you are going to be rude to applicants, you are going to be totally unbearable to them once they are employees.  Applicants who are too lazy or uneducated or stupid or uninterested to answer an ad with capitalization, punctuation, complete sentences, POLITENESS, and at least an introduction will not be stellar workers either.  No matter if you are hiring or applying, if the first encounter is rude, pass right there.
The moral of the story - show a little courtesy regardless of whether you are holding all the cards.  Someday, the situation mey be reversed. 

[darkmatter]

I am an EWS qualified Navy Vet. I just got out and am now on the hunt for a job. I know that I'm just starting out in the civilian world, but I also know that I have a lot to offer a company. All this in mind, I set out looking for a job as a RO or SRO. Exelon called me up a month prior to my Navy release date. I thought, "Wow, these guys are really on the ball."
Well, I got set up for an interview with the Dresden plant and was ready to put my best foot forward. I bought a suit for all upcoming interviews, prepared a nice resume package, and got to the interview 10minutes early. Everything was going well until that point.
One thing that those giving me the interview didn't seem to understand was that I was interviewing the company as well the company interviewing me. Five minutes past the scheduled interview, someone comes out to say that they are running late and that I'll have to wait ten more minutes. Twenty minutes later, I get told it'll be another five minutes. I felt like I was in an episode of Seinfeld. This was getting rediculous. I finally get invited in to the interview at 11:30, and I meet the interviewers as they are finishing up lunch. Never mind that I was given no such option, nor was I going to get one until the end of the interview. As if this was not enough, as I am answering questions one of my two interviewers is finishing up her desert as opposed to listening to the interview in question.
When the interview is over, they ask if I have any questions. I can only guess that this is a question they are not usually getting a real response to. They were taken aback, as if they weren't really expecting a question, when I asked, "If offered a position with your company, what sets yourselves apart from everyone else that would make me want to work here?" After taking a moment to compose themselves, they gave the response of being the biggest and most successful company. I asked more questions about housing in the area and educational opportunities, but after a few more of their answers I could tell that they just wanted the interview to end. I obliged them, left, and if offered a position I will be refusing it.
Interviewers need to understand that they represent the company, and that they are being evaluated as much as the interviewee. I have four more interviews lined up in the next few weeks, and am having to pick and choose what positions and locations are worth scheduling time for. I'm certain that I will find a position within the next few months, but it will not be with a company that doesn't appreciate what I'm bringing with me; hard work, intellegence, and the right attitude. I expect no less than the same from those I will work with and for.

Wow, wish I had read your advice years ago. I'm also ex-Navy nuke subs and interviewed at a site where the interviewers were knuckledragging low browed nosepicking cubicle warriors. I just figured those that do were in the plant working away and those that can't were tossed out to Human Resources and related paper shufflers. I was wrong, the interviewers were the cream of the crop so to speak. Someone please point me to a professional job where I can feel good about the pay, benefits, and co-workers.

[93-383]

I also agree with Bradley. Why would you work for a company when it is apparent that from the beginning they will respect you about as much as the Navy did for six or so years.

And with regard to respect being "earned" that is a very pessimistic attitude. It's a sad life when all you see is the potential for the worst in people rather than try to see their potential to be the best.

[JustinHEMI05]

I also agree with Bradley. Why would you work for a company when it is apparent that from the beginning they will respect you about as much as the Navy did for six or so years.

And with regard to respect being "earned" that is a very pessimistic attitude. It's a sad life when all you see is the potential for the worst in people rather than try to see their potential to be the best.

I am sorry Bradley experienced this during his process, and I hope it only gets better. During all of my interviews, I never percieved a lack of respect so I suppose that is a good thing. I also see both sides of the coin when it comes to the respect issue. In my short seven month career in commercial nuclear power, I have worked at two power plants run by two different utilities. At both, it was made quite clear to me (in both words and actions) that in order to truely succeed in those positions (ops trainer and instant SRO) I was going to have to prove myself and EARN the respect of those around me. It also became apparent that I was never going to really earn that respect as an ops trainer without a license. So, I chose another career path... that being the instant SRO. I am following a crew for six months before my class, and most of the time I am going on rounds or doing operations with the NLOs. I have already learned a ton of information from those guys, and am really cherishing the time I get to spend with them. The biggest lesson I have learned from them though is that getting my license is only the first step to earning their respect. I am going to have to prove myself both operationally, and in my ability to effectively manage people. Respect isn't just given out for free, here. And why should it be? I was going on rounds with a guy that has been in this business for 20 years. I cannot think of one good reason he should show many any respect other than normal human respect. I know nothing about this place and probably will never know quite as much as he does. And I think that is what people are melding together here. Bradley was shown a lack of basic human respect. Respect for a persons time, beliefs, morals, etc etc. His interviewers should have had the couresy to show up on time, and if that wasn't possible, give him another set time instead of hurry up and wait. They shouldn't have eaten during the interview, either. He deserved their undivided attention. As far as professional respect, I think that has to be earned. I can't put it any plainer than that. Both Bradley and I are, to borrow a Navy term, nubs to this industry. I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't remember having any respect for my nubs when they showed up to the boat, outside of normal human respect (and sometimes that was questionable), but certainly no professional respect because they haven't cut their teeth yet.

I know that having some chip on your shoulder about what you were qualified or your rank in the Navy is defenitely NOT the way to earn professional respect. Just shut up, be humble and listen will get you a long way in the beginning. Ha, one of the NLOs was "politely" informing me about his opinion of instant SROs and how some of them think because they were a Chief or Officer they were "all that," to which I replied "well, I am hoping you will spend the next six months teaching me what kind of supervisor you want me to be." I think I earned a little respect from him then.

Anyway, point is... I think the respect thing has two sides... and I see both.

Justin

[93-383]

 I guess I should have specified the difference between professional respect and social respect. I agree 100% that professional respect and trust must be earned however social respect is not earned it is required. I myself did not show the NUBs on the carrier with professional respect they did not know anything and must be taught however I never treated them like something I stepped in. There's a joke among med students "what's the difference between a piece of Sh*& and a 3rd year med student..... you don't go out of your way to step on a piece of Sh*&" This is how I felt that I was treated by the senior in rate personnel and I didn't agree with it then or now. The interviewers in this case did not show social respect to the interviewee for one by eating during the interview I realize that this was probably the first time they had for lunch they should have waited to start the interview until after lunch explained that to the interviewee and allowed him the same courtesy. It may seem like a small thing but things like that can be indicative of a companies attitude towards its employees in general.

[ddklbl]

People act within the capacities of their professional abilities.  A nonqual nub still is expected to perform to a certain level.  If such a nub performs the duties expected of him, commensurate with his experience and qualifications, then why would you not respect him professionally?  He is still diligently performing the duties expected of someone at his level of experience.

There is no difference between personal and professional respect.  They are one in the same.

Like B-rad said earlier, go into a job interview expecting the best, giving them nothing less in return.  Why would they not respect you on all levels?

[JustinHEMI05]

There is no difference between personal and professional respect.  They are one in the same.

I completely disagree with this part of your statement, but of course I already mentioned that.

There are many types of respect that have clearly defined lines between them. I think personal and professional are the two that have the biggest differences between them. What did they used to say about some lame officer? "You don't have to respect the man but you will respect whats on his collar." I think that pretty much sums it up right there. I could go on and on with personal examples of the differences, but I think you already know what they are. Or, perhaps you never had a boss that you hated but respected because of his position? I don't know, its just that in my experience the two, while often intertwined, are dicernable and separable.

Justin