Navy Nuc oops!

[93-383]

Okay, as a former LELT, RCSS, etc.,.....Man! Things have changed,...

To wit,...We became aware of an MM-ELT gundecking his SG level logs underway in AMR2LL (remember the stupid, almost never accurate Yarways they use to stick in front of the throttleman),...
proved it, charged him, masted him, denuked, defrocked, desubed, degone, dedone,...
we went port and stbd in AMR2LL for the rest of the spec op, it was a long spec op, and we knew we'd be P & S before we busted the big dummy, that was even mentioned to us by the bull nuke when the gundecking was still just a suspicion and not a fact and maybe we should just "mentor" the situation,...
we just told the bull nuke "if he's gundecking the simple stuff, where else is he screwing us?, nah, he's gotta face the music and we need to be able to trust the last watchstander",... mistakes are mitigable, malicious malfeasance knows no end,...
in years since I've wondered if the bull nuke was just gauging the integrity of the RL division rank and file,...

like I said,...Things have changed,...I don't remember entire nuke divisions going to mast back then, maybe I was just too busy to notice,...

Sadly that would not happen today. The standards of the program have sliped to a dangerous level. Due to manning the schools are passing everyone. I had an MM that admitidly had failed and ack-boarded every phase of the pipline. He was a danger to himself and others. However the command would not consider kicking him out (and yes he gave good cause more than once, perfect example this was a guy who failed to recognise a flooding casualty, I'm not kidding) the answer was we need the people. There are still good people in the program but the numbers are dwindling.

[JustinHEMI05]

Sadly that would not happen today. The standards of the program have sliped to a dangerous level. Due to manning the schools are passing everyone. I had an MM that admitidly had failed and ack-boarded every phase of the pipline. He was a danger to himself and others. However the command would not consider kicking him out (and yes he gave good cause more than once, perfect example this was a guy who failed to recognise a flooding casualty, I'm not kidding) the answer was we need the people. There are still good people in the program but the numbers are dwindling.

Reminds me of the movie idiocracy. If you haven't seen it you should rent it, you will laugh. The premise is that all the smart people are too busy to have families all the while the not so smart people continue to breed like bunnies, and in a few decades... everyone is an idiot. In the navy nuke program, the smart people are getting out, the dumb people are staying in... and the number of dumb people entering the program way outnumber the smart people entering due to waivers. Eventually... uggg I don't want to even think about it.

Justin

[Roll Tide]

I am glad to see that this has impacted more than just RL Division and the CRA.

Associated Press - October 26, 2007 7:25 AM ET

LOS ANGELES (AP) - The Navy says it has relieved the commanding officer of the nuclear-powered submarine USS Hampton of his duty because of a loss of confidence in his leadership.

Commander Michael Portland was dismissed from his job yesterday after Navy investigators found the ship failed to do daily safety checks on its nuclear reactor for a month and falsified records to cover up the omission.

http://www.wdbj7.com/global/story.asp?s=7269247&ClientType=Printable


But I also agree that the Navy needs to re-examine what is important, and get rid of the fluff.

BTW, I was not the LELT but I was an RCSS. I wasn't an ELT, but my friends were. Don't worry, I am fully qualified to comment on this (though I have been out for 12 years). And I would love to have access to the real information in order to perform a root cause on this.

[Kev3399]

Reminds me of the movie idiocracy. If you haven't seen it you should rent it, you will laugh. The premise is that all the smart people are too busy to have families all the while the not so smart people continue to breed like bunnies, and in a few decades... everyone is an idiot. In the navy nuke program, the smart people are getting out, the dumb people are staying in... and the number of dumb people entering the program way outnumber the smart people entering due to waivers. Eventually... uggg I don't want to even think about it.

I disagree Justin. Although I will agree with the standards dropping.....and the downturn in quality from the training pipeline. There are still alot of really smart and motivated people in the program. They keep on reenlisting and doing the patrols for all the right reasons. I good friend of mine just reenlisted the other day. He could have found a better paying job outside the Navy, but he decided to stay for the right reasons. Its unfortunate that the wrong collection of leadership was in place on this submarine. It is still amazing that this could happen and I provide no excuse for the actions of this Engineering Dept. However, to say that the program will just completely fail in the future is narrow minded. I trained some incredibly talented individuals in Charleston, and some who could barely tie their own shoes. I'm not proud of the latter, but I did the best I could with what was given to me. Unfortunately the training pipeline is designed to keep everyone now, we did the best we could in Charleston. I have a high degree of trust in the future Navy leadership to separate the good ones from the bad ones. Its not hard, a piss poor nuke is easy to spot. All you have to do is watch them for about 15 minutes. Thats all it would have taken on this submarine to figure out this RL Div was hosed. One EWS or Supervisor to take 15 minutes of his time to watch the daily sample...........One EDO to cruise by the sample sink and watch whats going on.

[JustinHEMI05]

I disagree Justin. Although I will agree with the standards dropping.....and the downturn in quality from the training pipeline. There are still alot of really smart and motivated people in the program. They keep on reenlisting and doing the patrols for all the right reasons. I good friend of mine just reenlisted the other day. He could have found a better paying job outside the Navy, but he decided to stay for the right reasons. Its unfortunate that the wrong collection of leadership was in place on this submarine. It is still amazing that this could happen and I provide no excuse for the actions of this Engineering Dept. However, to say that the program will just completely fail in the future is narrow minded. I trained some incredibly talented individuals in Charleston, and some who could barely tie their own shoes. I'm not proud of the latter, but I did the best I could with what was given to me. Unfortunately the training pipeline is designed to keep everyone now, we did the best we could in Charleston. I have a high degree of trust in the future Navy leadership to separate the good ones from the bad ones. Its not hard, a piss poor nuke is easy to spot. All you have to do is watch them for about 15 minutes. Thats all it would have taken on this submarine to figure out this RL Div was hosed. One EWS or Supervisor to take 15 minutes of his time to watch the daily sample...........One EDO to cruise by the sample sink and watch whats going on.

Ya I don't disagree that there are still and probably always will be good people that do the right thing in the program. I however don't have the trust or faith that you do in the future of the program. I guess only time will tell. I truely hope you are right for everone's sake.

Sounds like this whole ship was broke. Besides what just happened, I am sure they are going to get plenty of help on both ends... nukes and cones... and I am really curious to see what else comes out fore and aft.

Justin

[Rad Sponge]

Jason, I don't know what point you're trying to make.  Are you saying the overabundance of "help" (i.e. policy notes, the NPIM rolodex of random information, squadron letters) is to blame for this situation?

Absolutely not, I don't condone what the Hampton folks did. Like someone mentioned earlier, its all conjecture without knowing the facts.

I am just discussing what I have seen and how RL div is very interpretative in nature and compliance with the books is not even close to being in compliance with expectations, from my experience and I have been under quite a few seasoned LELTs and even had the chance myself.

The overabundance of help is a problem in that it blurrs standards.

ORSE is even subjective. An AA/E RL-Div can be that one orse, operate the same way and be Average the next.

I have seen blatant integrity violations ruin careers and I have seen ELTs sticking to the letter of law go nowhere in their careers because they butted heads with ORSE/SQN/CO, whomever. Just make it look good has been said to me a zillion times.

There should be one standard and every class of ship should have the exact same maps, exact same nomenclature, exact same everything if they have the same plant.

[ddklbl]

The overabundance of help is a problem in that it blurrs standards.

I don't think there was any doubt as to the standards that were expected here.  You sample, it's the law.

With respect to the integrity of the program, the path this thread seems to be going, I don't want to be as downtrodden as Justin nor can I be as Pollyanna as Kev3399.  The program has some serious issues facing it.  I see a shortage of talent.  There will be great people left to fight the fight, but great people should be the standard, not the exception.  I see a huge problem in level of knowledge.  The books are slimming down, that is a fact.  You cannot expect an operator to know everything about anything if you don't give him the tools do so.  NR cannot rely on the Naval Recruiting Command to be it's talent agency.  The old model used to be to recruit 10000 sailors for 2000 billets.  Now, we recruit 2500 to fill the same 2000 billets.  Those fuggers don't care who they recruit.  They pick the easiest 2500 to sign the line instead of the best 2500 (I know, I was #2499 in the easy column).  The recruiters don't have a vested interest in the quality of the end-product. 

It's easy to sit here and armchair quarterback the sh!t out this story.  About the only thing I can say with certainty is that all of our credibility, commercial and military, is now called into question. 

[Kev3399]

I don't think there was any doubt as to the standards that were expected here.  You sample, it's the law.

With respect to the integrity of the program, the path this thread seems to be going, I don't want to be as downtrodden as Justin nor can I be as Pollyanna as Kev3399.  The program has some serious issues facing it.  I see a shortage of talent.  There will be great people left to fight the fight, but great people should be the standard, not the exception.  I see a huge problem in level of knowledge.  The books are slimming down, that is a fact.  You cannot expect an operator to know everything about anything if you don't give him the tools do so.  NR cannot rely on the Naval Recruiting Command to be it's talent agency.  The old model used to be to recruit 10000 sailors for 2000 billets.  Now, we recruit 2500 to fill the same 2000 billets.  Those fuggers don't care who they recruit.  They pick the easiest 2500 to sign the line instead of the best 2500 (I know, I was #2499 in the easy column).  The recruiters don't have a vested interest in the quality of the end-product. 

It's easy to sit here and armchair quarterback the sh!t out this story.  About the only thing I can say with certainty is that all of our credibility, commercial and military, is now called into question. 

I can agree with this. The program needs to get more involved in some aspect of the recruiting process. I threw around several ideas while an instructor. There just wasn't ever any concern for that portion of the process.

[Rad Sponge]

I don't think there was any doubt as to the standards that were expected here.  You sample, it's the law.

With respect to the integrity of the program, the path this thread seems to be going, I don't want to be as downtrodden as Justin nor can I be as Pollyanna as Kev3399.  The program has some serious issues facing it.  I see a shortage of talent.  There will be great people left to fight the fight, but great people should be the standard, not the exception.  I see a huge problem in level of knowledge.  The books are slimming down, that is a fact.  You cannot expect an operator to know everything about anything if you don't give him the tools do so.  NR cannot rely on the Naval Recruiting Command to be it's talent agency.  The old model used to be to recruit 10000 sailors for 2000 billets.  Now, we recruit 2500 to fill the same 2000 billets.  Those fuggers don't care who they recruit.  They pick the easiest 2500 to sign the line instead of the best 2500 (I know, I was #2499 in the easy column).  The recruiters don't have a vested interest in the quality of the end-product. 

It's easy to sit here and armchair quarterback the sh!t out this story.  About the only thing I can say with certainty is that all of our credibility, commercial and military, is now called into question. 

You are referencing the blowing off of the primary, we are in complete agreement on that. No excuse. Sample.

I am opening up the discussion to a general observation about RL div issues.

The Hampton was not a shot in the dark.

[rbmcmjr]

This was way more than an RL Div/ELT problem.  How do you go 30 days without taking a primary sample and NO ONE notices?  Not the EOOW?  Not the EWS?  Not the EO waiting for the valves to be called in?  The mechanic expecting to read for the valve operation?  Sorry...this was an entire department that lost its integrity. 

As a former Chemistry Assistant on Enterprise, this story shocked me for exactly those reasons.  It appears that the press has the story wrong (big shock!).

From what I understand, this is not a case of blowing off the daily.  The samples were drawn, but a specific analysis was radioed because it was a PITA to perform and never varied.  It apparently came to light as they were reviewing logs in prep for the ORSE.

Rick

[cincinnatinuke]

Another site referred to the analysis as rhyming with pink.  For some of you old timers you may not know what it is, but for those of you that did this analysis know it was a PITA and it never varied and if I remember correctly had a lot of error built in.  It is nothing like how it is done commercially at least at Calvert with Ion Chromatography.

I bring this up for a couple of reasons.  First, it would be inappropriate to comment on Hampton's RL division blowing off 30 days worth of primary samples, or the integrity of ELT's, or the state of nuclear recruiting.  Though from some of the early articles and anonymous source comments in those articles it isnt hard to see why that conclusion (blowing off entire primaries) was jumped to.

Some personal OE, when I was a newly reported ELT to the boat I had to qualify rather quickly.  The above analysis was blazed off since it was assumed I had seen it at S8G.  I had "seen" it at S8G, but there it was assumed I would learn it and perform it in the fleet if my boat used it and if not no harm, no foul.  So during my walk through with the Engineer he decided to get heavy on this particular analysis.  The deeper he probed the slippier the slope I was standing on until he just flat out asked if I had ever performed this analysis.  So I can lie and save face with my division or I can tell the truth and have to face my division.

I told the truth and I became the black sheep of the division for awhile.  The moral of this story is that I bet alot of things get blazed whether it was in the 1960's on the Nautilus or today on the Hampton.  I doubt my fellow elts did this to have me avoid ever doing this analysis or to have me do this without the know how.  They needed a qualified ELT and we were in the yards and primaries were far and few between and would be a while before another Pink analysis would be done.

For all we really know is that someone forgot(or chose not to??) to do check chems.  Or paper work wasnt filled out or was misplaced, and rewritten prior to ORSE.  Lets not crucify these guys just yet.  I am sure the navy will effectively ruin their Naval careers.....the CO's, RL, the Eng, all remotely involved.  And yes I am holding out with rose colored glasses that 6 ELTs and their CRA didnt get to this point in their naval careers with this type of integrity and work ethic.  If that is the case then open up the flood gates on the State of naval nuclear Power .

[Marvin]

1983 (or was it 84) - I had never been assigned to survey the ships galley.  I was told that no one ever really went up there anyway, but I was bored and thought it would be cool to see where the captain hung out.  So I grabbed a frisker and some smears, found a blank survey form and a map to his place and headed out.

The captain's quarters on the big ships is very cool.  He had a little lounge area, a nice little bedroom, and his own galley and cook.  Anyone that know's navy ELT stuff knows that we have to survey all of the galleys because that's where food is prepared (duh) and there's this nuclear reactor on board and all.

Anyway, I had done the independent self-directed tour, met the cook, took some smears and was walking the dog with the pancake probe when someone walked up to me.  First I saw his shiny shoes and khaki pants, then when I looked up, I recognized the captain of the ship (I had seen his picture).  He was very curious to know what I was doing.  I told him "I am performing the routine survey of your galley area, sir."  He asked "how often is this survey performed?"  I said "weekly sir" (actually, I forgot the frequency but it sounds good).  Then he asked "how come I have never seen anyone performing this survey?"  I responded "we always try to schedule it while no one is here sir."  He said "carry-on."  So I did.

Moral of the story:
Humans are no different now than they were then.  When you take a complex convoluted system, insert imperfect humans, then expect perfect results you can be sure of one thing.  The humans will fail, individually and collectively.  That we fail is a given, not a possibility.  Our response to failure is actually more important than failure itself.  When we respond by pointing fingers and placing blame, then failure begets (a biblical term) failure.  When we pick up our buddies and brush the dirt off of their back and tell them to get back in the game, then the blame cycle ends.  And anyone that has been out there knows, there's a lot of dirt to deal with.

Of course, gross willful negligence is another story.  Research culpability tree.

[cincinnatinuke]

Karma to ya.  You said it much more eloquently than I.

[Cycoticpenguin]

There are a HUGE amount of problems coming from ELT's in the fleet. Is this a recurring trend or a newer happenstance?

Whole divisions are getting busted, how is the navy recouperating from it?

[LaFeet]

Okay, as a former LELT, RCSS, etc.,.....Man! Things have changed,...

To wit,...We became aware of an MM-ELT gundecking his SG level logs underway in AMR2LL (remember the stupid, almost never accurate Yarways they use to stick in front of the throttleman),...
proved it, charged him, masted him, denuked, defrocked, desubed, degone, dedone,...
we went port and stbd in AMR2LL for the rest of the spec op, it was a long spec op, and we knew we'd be P & S before we busted the big dummy, that was even mentioned to us by the bull nuke when the gundecking was still just a suspicion and not a fact and maybe we should just "mentor" the situation,...
we just told the bull nuke "if he's gundecking the simple stuff, where else is he screwing us?, nah, he's gotta face the music and we need to be able to trust the last watchstander",... mistakes are mitigable, malicious malfeasance knows no end,...
in years since I've wondered if the bull nuke was just gauging the integrity of the RL division rank and file,...

like I said,...Things have changed,...I don't remember entire nuke divisions going to mast back then, maybe I was just too busy to notice,...

I've tried to stay away from this thread( but the topic and the beer have the better of me)


I Gotta agree with Marssim.... if one is WILLING to blow off his duties...... ignore doing the RIGHT thing  what else is he going to do?  What other harm could befall us???   Hang on here... we are not talking about a floater... we are talking about a dang sh%7 tube that hold some 100+ others BELOW the water's surface !!!!

As a former RC DIv LPO.... and honorary SMAG/EM/Mao Mao  I can not condone anyone falsifying (spelling??) logs for any reason.  Hell, if I can get a couple of FRSUs correct in an hour, than any SMAG can at least do the DAILY soutine sample.  Sorry, but it's the truth.... I don't feel anyone has a reason to place the plant in jeopardy nnnnnnnnnoooooo how much the analysis may or may not have changed over the past few years.

Okay  Ima gonna bed now.. mayhap another Hobgoblim (thanks Jimmy)

[Kev3399]

I've tried to stay away from this thread( but the topic and the beer have the better of me)

.....I kept glancing at your avatar while reading your post.

Not to start a sub vs surface thing.......Things hit the poop fan just as fast on a carrier if RC Div is hosed. Although, I've heard enough stories from submariners to have a special respect for you all.

[cincinnatinuke]

LaFeet,

If karma were an absolute value you would be king.  I have never seen someone's karma go as far positve, as it is now, from as far negative as I have seen it.  I am gonna give you karma, but I have to debate whether it will be +/-, since with you it never really matters.  I wonder if I can give you both??? 

[cincinnatinuke]

LaFeet,

If karma were an absolute value you would be king.  I have never seen someone's karma go as far positve, as it is now, from as far negative as I have seen it.  I am gonna give you karma, but I have to debate whether it will be +/-, since with you it never really matters.  I wonder if I can give you both??? 

I am allowed to give you both, just not consecutively.  I did start with negative since you didnt raise your beer glass or offer to buy a virtual round.

[WA SubDoc]

On the USS Henry M Jackson (SSBN 730)(B) in the mid-90's I had a MM2 ELT fail to Zero CaF tld's prior to issue.

He claimed that he did it on a reader at the Trident Training Facility at Bangor. Problem for him, that part of TTF was a "secure" area and hadn't been opened that day.

We issued tld's to all the F-ing nukes just before we took the boat (turn over with the other crew).

He got caught when the ELT's did an initial entry into the RC. The SIPD's read around 10 and the CaF read 25ish. It was within the 30/30 rule and it was acceptable.  The on duty ELT's did some investigating and read the TLD's of other people on duty that weekend. The TLD's read an average of 15mRem. That is for tld's that were supposed to be zero'd just 48 hours before and only used on aboard a Trident with a cold plant and no RC entries.

An investigation followed and he was taken to MAST where he was busted and fined (both suspended), de-nuked and had his submarine designator removed. He was sent to the Nimitz as a conventional MM. About a year later the CO of the Nimitz sent my CO a letter asking if he would consider "evacuating" the MAST. My XO showed me the letter, and he let me rant, rave, cuss and stomp my feet for a bit. Then the skipper walked in and in an Oscar award winning form said, "I see you've seen the letter... Here's my response......" The letter basically said: NOT ONLY NO, BUT H3LL NO!!!. ..... God, I loved that skipper.

[Rad Sponge]

FYI

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,336208,00.html

Question referring to linked story...what's an Officer Advancement Exam?

[ddklbl]

Question referring to linked story...what's an Officer Advancement Exam?

A misprint, probably.  The article below has nearly the same wording, omitting the officer. 

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20080308-9999-1m8hampton.html

I will say that is probably one of the most strongly worded, disparaging characterizations of, not only an officer, but a ships captain I've ever heard.  You'd think they were describing Capt. Queeg himself, minus the strawberries.

[number41]

I've been staying clear of this thread for awhile, but I'll be on terminal leave tomorrow, so what the F.  Anyway, after having been an EOOW and RCT/RCSS, I feel that I'm basically qualified to comment on ELT performance.  The REAL reason smag's get into trouble with chemistry and radcon is laziness, but more often than not their laziness appears to develop from the "interpretations" of their manuals.  In my time in the program I frequently witnessed the people in charge of a program "interpreting" the WCM/RCM to mean different things.  This makes it nearly impossible for any ELT to consistently do his job to the standard.  Since the manuals were specifically written to leave a little lee-way in the administration and maintenance of radcon and chemistry, two things have happened: 1.) The crappy ELT's have used that margin to further their inherent laziness, and 2.) the people in charge have used that margin to interpret the books the way they see fit.  Both of these actions have only served to confound the efforts of the common EOOW & ELT to interpret and use the manuals in the way they are intended.  The end result has been that many ELT's have begun to control chemistry as they see fit and make the logs look correct and the EOOW's have stopped questioning what is really going on with chemistry.  Both groups know that upper management will be changing the way the boat does business with regard to WCM/RCM Article xxx.x.x within the next month anyway.............................SOME of this is an exaggeration, but some of it is not.  You can judge for yourself how much is really true.  Just my $.02.

[taterhead]

FYI

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,336208,00.html

Question referring to linked story...what's an Officer Advancement Exam?

that was supposed to say CTE's (Continuous Training Exams).

Fox News...what do you expect? 

[DDMurray]

I've been staying clear of this thread for awhile, but I'll be on terminal leave tomorrow, so what the F.  Anyway, after having been an EOOW and RCT/RCSS, I feel that I'm basically qualified to comment on ELT performance.  The REAL reason smag's get into trouble with chemistry and radcon is laziness, but more often than not their laziness appears to develop from the "interpretations" of their manuals.  In my time in the program I frequently witnessed the people in charge of a program "interpreting" the WCM/RCM to mean different things.  This makes it nearly impossible for any ELT to consistently do his job to the standard.  Since the manuals were specifically written to leave a little lee-way in the administration and maintenance of radcon and chemistry, two things have happened: 1.) The crappy ELT's have used that margin to further their inherent laziness, and 2.) the people in charge have used that margin to interpret the books the way they see fit.  Both of these actions have only served to confound the efforts of the common EOOW & ELT to interpret and use the manuals in the way they are intended.  The end result has been that many ELT's have begun to control chemistry as they see fit and make the logs look correct and the EOOW's have stopped questioning what is really going on with chemistry.  Both groups know that upper management will be changing the way the boat does business with regard to WCM/RCM Article xxx.x.x within the next month anyway.............................SOME of this is an exaggeration, but some of it is not.  You can judge for yourself how much is really true.  Just my $.02.

I do not disagree with what you are saying, but I don't think it was a contributor in this case.  The things that got these guys in trouble were pretty much no brainers as far as knowing what they did was wrong.  The fact that it involved so many people at one command tells you it was a command climate issue.  There have been lots and lots of discussions on where to go from here WRT integrity in general.  I was surprised to find out that these guys were Battle E material 18 months prior to all this happening.  We're finding out that many of today's Sailors look at integrity differently than we were taught 20 years ago.  You'll start seeing discussions of professional vice personal integrity because we're learning that many guys look at integrity as sticking with your friends even though they do dumb things.  Though this seems honorable on the surface, it contributed to the situation we saw on Hampton.  I'm no goody two shoes, but I'd like to think I would have recognized the bad situation these guys put themselves into.  That's all I'm going to say about that.

[DDMurray]

Some light reading for us. 
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/images/080308hampton.pdf