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JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #100 on: May 20, 2008, 08:07 »
The issue is solving a problem that requires a different approach.  Trying to attract high quality applicants requires many things the Navy just can’t offer or guarantee:  money, responsibility, recognition, living conditions, travel.  The navy can’t offer much of this in reality but can make up for it by selling an illusion, which is the next best thing or even better in some circumstances. 
No, to solve the “problem” it’s not with personnel itself but with the department of defense and our military doctrine.  The military budget should be cut in half in the next four years and then cut in half again.  At least.  Fast attack subs should be cut to 3 per coast.  Two nuke carriers max per coast.  Bring back the diesel submarines which are an effective weapon, cost effective, and much easier to staff. 
The reduction of the military will serve to stop by default the 100 year (unconstitutional) imperial expansion which is on course to guarantee the collapse of the US economic system which can no longer support this insane infrastructure.  It is by the way, dept of defense, not the department of nation building/military complex/food hander outer/government overthrower/presidential photo op-er. The size of the military provides an oh too easy “solution” to problems that don’t require military solutions or as a way for a sitting president to distract the populous from the countries issues by creating needless wars and spreading fears.  The Romans did this and called it “bread and circuses”.  We call it government hand outs and freedom wars.
The current state of the government and the military does not guarantee our liberty but in fact puts our liberties more at risk then ever before since the current size is not sustainable.  The government should be slashed by 70% minimum. 
The military (and government) is really only an enabler to tax my income and transfer it to the military complex (and other blood sucking lobbiest).  It does not protect my freedoms, it only makes my freedoms more tenuous.  That it the paradox mystery.  Solved.

Follow the white rabbit.


Ah... ok. Very nice post, can't say I disagree with much of it. But lets come back down to Earth and reality and offer some real solutions to problems in the NNPP. Personally, I think they should just make everyone officers that way you wouldn't have a bunch of blue shirt complaining all the time.  :P

Justin

PapaBear765

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #101 on: May 20, 2008, 08:14 »
Trying to attract high quality applicants requires many things the Navy just can’t offer or guarantee:  money, responsibility, recognition, living conditions, travel.  The navy can’t offer much of this in reality but can make up for it by selling an illusion, which is the next best thing or even better in some circumstances. 

I agree with all of it, but for what I've quoted.  You're speaking as though the navy is incapable of being the greatest job in the world.  I could think of some very simple ways that the navy could improve by a billion fold.  Like I've said before in one thread or another, most of the guys I've worked with don't mind a long day of working...as long as they're working, that their time isn't being wasted.  None of us are in it for the money, we're in it for the experience and job satisfaction.  That satisfaction only coming from within nowadays, and even then not often enough.

JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #102 on: May 20, 2008, 08:23 »
I agree with all of it, but for what I've quoted.  You're speaking as though the navy is incapable of being the greatest job in the world.  I could think of some very simple ways that the navy could improve by a billion fold.  Like I've said before in one thread or another, most of the guys I've worked with don't mind a long day of working...as long as they're working, that their time isn't being wasted.  None of us are in it for the money, we're in it for the experience and job satisfaction.  That satisfaction only coming from within nowadays, and even then not often enough.

Yup I think I see what you are saying. We are trying to "root cause analysis" this down to one big problem, which it isn't. Its about a million little things. Little things that drive a man insane... to drink... to hate... to be bitter... to separate. Things like "stick around just in case." Things that bad leaders do. Things that are contrary to simple human nature. Oh crap... wait... AHHHH the circle continues! It always seems to come back around to the leadership.  Or, does that then just follow back to whiny blue shirt? ::)


Justin
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 08:24 by JustinHEMI »

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #103 on: May 21, 2008, 06:35 »
Justin I feel your pain on this...

I do think a lot of it goes down to leadership and how we promote those who fall in line rather than don't.  It only promotes continuing the cycle.  That is the problem with people within the program chosing who to promote to higher leadership positions and evaulations.  I mean face it, if you got a guy that is always complaining about the BS associated with the job, you are not going to give him a good eval which in turn limits his chance of promotion.  Just the way it is.  That EP is going to go to the guy who is S#%T hot and doesn't complain about everything and begins conforming to the Nuke world.  It is even more evident with Chiefs.  I feel the only thing we can do is have someone from outside the program, outside the Navy, come in and evaluate how we do things.  This would limit the diggit and super bitter factors and help identify actual problems not just perceived ones.  That person or persons would then make strong recommendations about what to do to fix it and make it happen.  The key part is the higher ups going along with it.   I understand some things would have to be vetoed just because the NNPP is its own unique beast, but if the majority were followed, I feel it would be a step in the right direction. 

Just some more of my thoughts....

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PapaBear765

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #104 on: May 26, 2008, 08:26 »
How would you fix the NNPP?  Manage your personnel and resources to the contrary of how it's done now.

Here at P-suck we've begun our long awaited PEMA.  The crews have gone from the normal three 8-hr shifts to two 12-hr shifts rotating MMMMxxAAAAxxDDDDTxxx (Mids, Assist, Days, Training).  These Assist days are 8-hr days, the first two of which are for classroom lectures with the remaining six hours spent assisting the on-shift crew.  This has proven to be way more nukes than is needed, so the Assist guys have been getting a good deal thus far by leaving after training is done and Days has no need for us.

P-suck, an everlasting supporter of the navy's conservation of good deals, has reorganized Assist days to be two halves: half of the crew does training for 4 hours while the other half "assists," then they switch second half.  This is all due to M Div not having enough people to get their work done and having to support the most watches.  But this doesn't help M Div???  I'm not qualified one of their watch stations and the CoC won't let me; I can't do their maintenance and the CoC wouldn't let me anyway.  What do you do when stuff has to get done and you're behind?  Extend the working hours...for everyone.

Unless I'm operating here with a faulty perspective, then this follows right along with why NNPP has problems and why people won't re-enlist.

Chimera

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #105 on: May 26, 2008, 10:56 »
Just to toss in my out-of-date two cents worth:

What drove me out of the Navy Nuclear Program back in 1974 was the lack of respect in the Wardroom for our training and knowledge.  Even though the officers were not trained to the level of detail on our specific equipment that we were, they seemed to feel entirely comfortable over-riding our professional judgements as to how specific pieces of equipment should be repaired and/or operated.  We battled almost every day with the smug, superior attitude coming out of the wardroom to the detriment of the operability of the engineroom.  In al fairness, a small percentage of the officers did respect our training and abilities, but, overall, most of them did not.  I became so fed up with the borderline incompetence in the wardroom that I left the Navy even though I actually enjoyed what I was doing and where I was doing it.  As long as the skipper and the majority of the inhabitants of the wardroom have these attitudes, things won't improve.  I did manage to have one good skipper and a fairly well grounded wardroom for a short period of time and everything went smoother and better.  It was almost fun to go to work under those circumstances.  But as long as one must kiss butt in order to garner favor and promotions, the poor trolls in the engineroom will continue to suffer.

DSO

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #106 on: May 26, 2008, 12:35 »
Management not listening and discrediting workers knowledge/opinions goes on in the civilian world also ie. Where I work at a major electric utility

PapaBear765

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #107 on: May 26, 2008, 03:41 »
But as long as one must kiss butt in order to garner favor and promotions...

...or to get work done.  The purpose of asking for permission from the officers to commence maintenance is to have a last-chance idiot check for conflict of maintenance items and that the work can be done at the time it's intended to be done.  That's it.  Exactly how to do it, i.e. what to tag out or the order of what to do, is the decision of the guys doing the work.

Management not listening and discrediting workers knowledge/opinions goes on in the civilian world also ie. Where I work at a major electric utility

The wonderful difference being that one can chose how long to put up with that; if it's not that bad, then stick around, otherwise quit.  Yes, every job is complaint-worthy but it's self-correcting in the real world.  If a company ran things like the navy (which doesn't have a profit to worry about), then it will go out of business.

JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #108 on: May 26, 2008, 03:53 »
...or to get work done.  The purpose of asking for permission from the officers to commence maintenance is to have a last-chance idiot check for conflict of maintenance items and that the work can be done at the time it's intended to be done.  That's it.  Exactly how to do it, i.e. what to tag out or the order of what to do, is the decision of the guys doing the work.

The wonderful difference being that one can chose how long to put up with that; if it's not that bad, then stick around, otherwise quit.  Yes, every job is complaint-worthy but it's self-correcting in the real world.  If a company ran things like the navy (which doesn't have a profit to worry about), then it will go out of business.

What happens if the person doing the idiot check is an idiot?  8)

Justin

PapaBear765

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #109 on: May 26, 2008, 05:51 »
What happens if the person doing the idiot check is an idiot?  8)

Justin

I got nothing.

JsonD13

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #110 on: May 26, 2008, 07:02 »
If the idiot checker is in fact an idiot (I've met a few in my very few years in the greatest Navy ever) then you make sure you know what the hell you are doing, and either take the time to give some OJT or get him to sign off and tell him he needs to know what the hell he is signing so he can be more responsible for it when it messes up later ;-) .  That's why we were all trained as technicians, and officers trained as managers (I am not implying that officers are idiots, they just tend to know less about the specifics of each rate and more about the general stuff).  The problem lies in when the idiot thinks he knows more than you do about YOUR job, and proceeds to tell you how to do it.  When that stuff happens, throw up your hands and expect to be at work for a long, long time.

Jason

JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #111 on: May 26, 2008, 07:33 »
If the idiot checker is in fact an idiot (I've met a few in my very few years in the greatest Navy ever) then you make sure you know what the hell you are doing, and either take the time to give some OJT or get him to sign off and tell him he needs to know what the hell he is signing so he can be more responsible for it when it messes up later ;-) .  That's why we were all trained as technicians, and officers trained as managers (I am not implying that officers are idiots, they just tend to know less about the specifics of each rate and more about the general stuff).  The problem lies in when the idiot thinks he knows more than you do about YOUR job, and proceeds to tell you how to do it.  When that stuff happens, throw up your hands and expect to be at work for a long, long time.

Jason

Ding ding ding.

Justin

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #112 on: May 27, 2008, 06:55 »
What happens if the person doing the idiot check is an idiot?  8)

Justin

Well if he gives you major attitude when doing it, well thus the birth of Malicious Compliance.   ;)
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I have found the cure for LIBERALISM, it is a good steady dose of REALITY!

withroaj

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #113 on: Jun 02, 2008, 09:47 »
I got a good one.  I really wish I could name the CoC responsible for this one, but it would serve no purpose other than to hold them accountable in front of all of us "Holier than Thou" internet types.

DON'T send your guy TAD to a school 162.25 miles away from the boat and have him come stand duty on Saturday, at least not without travel expenses covered.  I wish this was a joke, but this just happened to a friend of mine.  Groton on Friday in school; Portsmouth on Saturday finishing the Tagout audit.  Problem here?

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #114 on: Jun 02, 2008, 12:11 »
Well I always thought that TAD was Traveling Around Drunk so how would you be able to drive back to do the tagout audit?  Ok well seriously, it was becoming a growing trend around the Navy to have guys come back for Duty while TAD.  On my ship we had SEVERAL instances of guys going to NavLead during the Week and having to come back at night or on the Weekends for watch.  Then it turned into a big pissing match between the two commands about regulations, and how if you were TAD you were not assigned to the ship and yada yada yada.  Luckily it was only a couple of miles for us, I couldn't imagine doing it for 160+miles.  Just one more example of the Navy ignoring regulations when it suits them, but hammering them home if it is in their best interest. 
"No good deal goes unpunished"

"Explain using obscene hand jestures the concept of pump laws"

I have found the cure for LIBERALISM, it is a good steady dose of REALITY!

JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #115 on: Jun 02, 2008, 10:30 »
I always hated going back to the ship after school. My one MMC and EDMC thought that your work day didn't start until you got to the boat after school at 1600. Many times we were there late to do our part.  :-\

Justin

Offline arduousartifice

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #116 on: Jun 03, 2008, 09:39 »
I always hated going back to the ship after school. My one MMC and EDMC thought that your work day didn't start until you got to the boat after school at 1600. Many times we were there late to do our part.  :-\

And thus the nuke is demoralized; realizing he gets less liberty away from the boat causes him to never ask for a school again, but instead to love his command for only making him work one navy work day per day, and when his time at the command is nearly up he can find no better recourse than to make a long, long list of things he loves about the command, request to reenlist, and, at the penultimate moment, as pen and paper and whore begin to merge into one flesh, pull out the list he has made, lay it on the table, rip up the reenlistment papers, and ride into the sunset.
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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #117 on: Jun 04, 2008, 06:22 »
And thus the nuke is demoralized; realizing he gets less liberty away from the boat causes him to never ask for a school again, but instead to love his command for only making him work one navy work day per day, and when his time at the command is nearly up he can find no better recourse than to make a long, long list of things he loves about the command, request to reenlist, and, at the penultimate moment, as pen and paper and whore begin to merge into one flesh, pull out the list he has made, lay it on the table, rip up the reenlistment papers, and ride into the sunset.

Almost brings a tear to your eye :'(
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Offline arduousartifice

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #118 on: Jun 04, 2008, 08:49 »
Thought of something.  If an officer is informed he has a phone call from his wife, then takes the phone and the first word out of his mouth is "Engineer," he should probably be fired.

Also, since when was divisional/department training conducted by IC circuit?  I think the compulsion of some people to always adhere to the Sub IC manual is ridiculous, formal communications are not needed all the time (I know the argument about habits, but that's a load of crap).  For example, one quarters on the pier the CO was sighting a death toll, said it halfway, then stopped to correct himself from saying something like forty-two to four two.  I almost gagged, but decided to deface my pocket sub IC manual instead.

And there's another thing that should probably go away.  Pocket versions of instructions like the watchstander's guide and Sub IC manual.  I believe they are a waste of money, good only as something to graffiti.  Talk about drops in standards, someone is pretty worried when they start saying all watchstanders should keep those on them at all times, and pretty detached from reality as well.  I wonder if someone will ever add up all the twos that keep separately traveling up the CoC and get an even number.  I've got a raging clue that points to no.
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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #119 on: Jun 04, 2008, 08:55 »
Thought of something.  If an officer is informed he has a phone call from his wife, then takes the phone and the first word out of his mouth is "Engineer," he should probably be fired.

Also, since when was divisional/department training conducted by IC circuit?  I think the compulsion of some people to always adhere to the Sub IC manual is ridiculous, formal communications are not needed all the time (I know the argument about habits, but that's a load of crap).  For example, one quarters on the pier the CO was sighting a death toll, said it halfway, then stopped to correct himself from saying something like forty-two to four two.  I almost gagged, but decided to deface my pocket sub IC manual instead.

And there's another thing that should probably go away.  Pocket versions of instructions like the watchstander's guide and Sub IC manual.  I believe they are a waste of money, good only as something to graffiti.  Talk about drops in standards, someone is pretty worried when they start saying all watchstanders should keep those on them at all times, and pretty detached from reality as well.  I wonder if someone will ever add up all the twos that keep separately traveling up the CoC and get an even number.  I've got a raging clue that points to no.

Us surface guys have no idea what in the HamSandwich you are talking about with pocket IC manuals and stuff like that. 

Seems like a lot of the what we perceive as wrong goes back to leadership, malicious adherence to our own stupidity in the face of overwhelming common sense, and believing in the policies of a man who was a horrible people person.  Bottom line is that when the poop hits the fan, is the EOOW really going to stop to correct the fact he said T-G instead of Turbine Generator when it is on fire?  I would hope not.
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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #120 on: Jun 04, 2008, 10:30 »
When a revolutionary succeeds he should be given five years and then shot. Or otherwise removed. Because they then become vulnerable to the politics of failure and they cease to advance. They rest on their laurels. I think that’s what happened to Rickover. -Capt. Dick Lang (USS Seawolf SSN 575)

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #121 on: Jun 20, 2008, 01:46 »
Very interesting article. Not sure I agree with it completely but you can see a lot of what could be truth to it.  I have a feeling that we are going to see a lot of new navy recruits do to the floundering economy.  This in turn will increase the # nukes that are going to be going through the pipeline, and all the implication that that will entail as far as how to train all those people with the few people we have.  Plus with McCain wanting to build all these new reactors there is goign to be a VERY STRONG pull by civie plants to get some people with experience, thus probably going to be adding some strong incentives for NLO positions.  Going to be an interesting time in the next few years.
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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #122 on: Jun 20, 2008, 03:34 »
Very interesting article. Not sure I agree with it completely but you can see a lot of what could be truth to it.  I have a feeling that we are going to see a lot of new navy recruits do to the floundering economy. 

I recruited from a county with 25% unemployment. That was a floundering economy. The 5.5% has not yet caused a line outside the recruiting station where my son reports for DEP meetings.
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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #123 on: Jun 21, 2008, 08:38 »
I recruited from a county with 25% unemployment. That was a floundering economy. The 5.5% has not yet caused a line outside the recruiting station where my son reports for DEP meetings.

Way to shoot down my point that I based purely on circumstance and with no research what-so-ever.  What is this world coming to that people actually go behind your back and do fact checks, SHEESH!
"No good deal goes unpunished"

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I have found the cure for LIBERALISM, it is a good steady dose of REALITY!

Fermi2

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #124 on: Jun 21, 2008, 01:40 »
I don't need the Navy to provide me with experienced people for NLO Jobs. I can get what I need from the Junior Colleges, factories and such. We train from the ground up and we have much higher standards for performance so it doesn't matter where I get them from. All I need is someone with High Standards, a willingness to work and some intelligence. 15 years ago I knew I could get the first qualification I mentioned by hiring from the Navy. Now it's simply not true. I've seen some of the rocks the Navy puts out these days so now many don't meet qualification number 3 and so far as two, one doesn't need Navy experience to be a hard worker.

One of the very best ROs I know we snagged from Burger King and in my mind so far as work ethic, standards and plain ability to understand and operate a nuke plant this guy has very few peer, I learned a lot about my current facility from them.

It's my view someone without commercial experience shouldn't be commenting on what type of experience is applicable to the real world.

If you wanna fix Nuke school, put me in charge :)

Mike

 


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