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PapaBear765

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A couple of commercial questions
« on: Jul 08, 2008, 10:33 »
Was watching TV last month and came across "The China Syndrome."  It was really interesting and entertaining to me with no commercial experience, as I'm sure many movies on the military are to those who haven't been in.  Had a lot of actors back in their younger days, the movie was made in the late 70s.  I was wondering how accurate it is?  Does any of it resemble any commercial plant?  Are there any other movies out there like this one with a lot of commercial nuclear power involved in the plot?

Also, this week the National Geographic Channel (I think) had a fictional show called "Aftermath"—what would happen if the human race disappeared.  Of course, they had to address the nuclear disasters that would occur.  The show didn't address operational plants but described how the "400 tons" of spent fuel in the "spent fuel" buildings across the country would release "more radioactivity than the bombs from WWII."  It depicted the spent fuel cells submerged in huge tanks of water for them to "cool down."  Any truth to it all and would the environment be at risk if the electricity supplying the buildings were to go away?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: Jul 08, 2008, 10:33 by PapaBear765 (3363) »

Fermi2

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #1 on: Jul 08, 2008, 11:55 »
The Control Room was a mock up of an actual commercial Control Room. IIRC a utility offered the producers tours and such then were not happy when the movie came out.

So far as I know no plant has an alarm system that gives the detailed sequence theirs did and I SURE wish there was an alarm that said Event complete!

My guess is the stuff in the Turbine Building could have been filmed anywhere, theres no difference between a Commercial turbine building and a dirt burner.

So far as breaking into the MCR the method they chose is not how I would do it but oh well.

There seemed to be too much room around the vibrating Coolant Pump but I haven't been in a Free Standing Air Containment,  and so far as I know vibration of an RCP isn't so much a pipe issue as a pump damage issue.

If the electricity went away the water would heat up. The actual amount depends on how recent the fuel has been irradiated. The pools themselves are designed for Natural Circulation. The fuel floor would get MIGHTY Humid, usually at pool temps above 110 F the refueling floor can sweat. Eventually I suppose boiling will occur, the pool would suffer a constant level loss. If you had a way to make up the water loss from evaporation you'd end up ok.

Mike

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #2 on: Jul 09, 2008, 08:33 »
If the electricity went away the water would eventually evaporate and uncover the fuel and some of the fresher fuel would probably melt and release a significant amount of radioactive gas, but probably not much more than that. If it melted through the floor of the pool it would eventually mix with the metal and concrete and cool down (at least that is what the core in Chernobyl did and it was an active fissioning core.) I think the gasses would still be the biggest problem and most of them are pretty short lived, so the fuel would have to be fresh out of the core to cause a major problem except locally.

As far as the movie goes, it was a farce in many ways but the physical depiction of the plant was not too far fetched. Except that if you wanted to trip the reactor you could do it from a lot of places without having to get into the control room. Some of the instrumentation will trip the reactor if you stare at it too hard. Well, that may be a bit of an exaggeration.
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JustinHEMI05

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #3 on: Jul 09, 2008, 11:22 »
Some of the instrumentation will trip the reactor if you stare at it too hard. Well, that may be a bit of an exaggeration.

Naw I think you are right. :) Some of my required reading as a newb is all of the OE involving trips caused by people blowing by instrumentation too fast LOL. Ok maybe a little exaggeration, but not too far off. :)

Justin

PapaBear765

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #4 on: Jul 09, 2008, 11:48 »
Thanks for the info everyone.

So if the control room was fairly accurate, then was the setup of personnel accurate?  Was the guy in charge of Wilford Brimley the SRO and Brimley the RO?
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t115/mikeoksbigg765/Funny/Diabeetus.jpg

If there's nothing like that event/alarm recorder from the movie, then is there a video or audio recording system?  From threads in the past you commercial guys have talked about 100 alarms going off just for a basic scram, seems like too much to write into the logs with enough accuracy that some other form of automated recording would be warranted.

What are some other culture shockers other than the size of everything being much larger?  That is, are logs hand-written or automated?  Does someone in the control room have to get relieved before he can go the bathroom?  Is there one guy walking around outside of the control room filling the role of the 5-6 watch standers used in the navy, or is there just about the same number of those rovers?  Et cetera...

Thanks
« Last Edit: Jul 09, 2008, 11:50 by PapaBear765 (3363) »

JustinHEMI05

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #5 on: Jul 09, 2008, 12:20 »
Thanks for the info everyone.

So if the control room was fairly accurate, then was the setup of personnel accurate?  Was the guy in charge of Wilford Brimley the SRO and Brimley the RO?
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t115/mikeoksbigg765/Funny/Diabeetus.jpg

If there's nothing like that event/alarm recorder from the movie, then is there a video or audio recording system?  From threads in the past you commercial guys have talked about 100 alarms going off just for a basic scram, seems like too much to write into the logs with enough accuracy that some other form of automated recording would be warranted.

What are some other culture shockers other than the size of everything being much larger?  That is, are logs hand-written or automated?  Does someone in the control room have to get relieved before he can go the bathroom?  Is there one guy walking around outside of the control room filling the role of the 5-6 watch standers used in the navy, or is there just about the same number of those rovers?  Et cetera...

Thanks

I think every place is a little different. At peach, the operating crew consists of;

One shift manager
3 SROs... one dual unit CRS, one work control supervisor and one floor supervisor. On weekdays during the day, depending on work load, each unit will have a CRS.
4 ROs... one per unit, one common guy (electrical/diesel stuff mostly) and one guy driving the work.
7 NLOs... one per unit in the reactor building, one per unit in the turbine building, one outside/substation guy, one water plant guy and one rad waste guy. There are often 1-3 extra NLOs to do the work for the day. I will submit that in my opinion, each NLO replaces at least 3 navy watch standers... just based on all of the crap in each area like the turbine building.

The logs (called rounds) here are not automated, but most of them are on handheld PDAs and are performed once per day. Depending on the NLO and the location, they take anywhere from 2-5 hours. On any given day, they will have a routine inspection of a system(s) during which more detailed logs are taken. Depending on the equipment, some things may be looked at only once per week. During rounds, it is expected that they perform minor housekeeping, e.g wiping up oil. After rounds, they support work.

In the control room, yes for an RO to go to the bathroom, he has to get someone to cover him (not necessarily relieve him). But there is a bathroom in the control room behind the controls area, so he doesn't have to go far. In fact, unless they smoke, it is rare for an RO or CRS to actually leave the control room during the shift. If they are short and don't have the 4th RO to do the reliefs, they can have the common plant RO cover them for a few minutes to use the bathroom or grab their lunch out of the kitchen that is also in the control room behind the controls area. Yes, they eat at their desks in the control room. That isn't to say that food is allowed near any controls.

There is in fact an event/alarm recorder here and at Palo Verde. Sometimes they go by so fast that you might have to back it up to see what actually tripped the alarm. This is because for any given alarm, there could be a dozen things that set it off, but the actual alarm window doesn't tell you what it was. The event recorder and the plant "computer" can. There isn't any video cameras, at least not that I could see. I don't know about audio. but I doubt it.

Justin

Fermi2

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #6 on: Jul 09, 2008, 01:43 »
Yes there is an Alarm Recorder. Example my plant has hard wired alarms which go to the Alarm Windows on the operating Panels.
The inputs to these panels also go to the Event Recorders (Alarm Printer), this will print out to the millisecond when an alarm initiates and clears.
It also goes to a computer Screen which gives the same info as the Event Printer.

There is also a system called ICS (Integrated Computer System) that has the ability to monitor and trend just about anything and which you can use to get historical data. IT has it's own alarm system too.

As for logging.. what needs to be retrieved goes to the Event Printer. You only log the event, what procedures you entered and if an Alarm Window caused you to make a certain decision you log it.

There is a "First Out" alarm area too. In event of a trip this will tell you what tripped you though for all practical purposes it doesn't matter. You enter the same procedure regardless of the cause of the trip.

Mike

PapaBear765

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #7 on: Jul 09, 2008, 04:26 »
So is it Dockers and polo shirts, t-shirt and jeans, or "just the TLD"?

Fermi2

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #8 on: Jul 09, 2008, 04:43 »
It depends. My old utility required us to wear light blue button down shirts with either Khaki or grey pants. Shift Managers wore Ties M-F till 1530. About a year before I left we had Polo Shirts but SMs couldn't wear them M-F on days. Jeans were NOT allowed.


So far as I know TVA has no uniform requirement though most SROs wear Shirts that have the TVA Logo on them. We can order uniforms but not all the SROs wear them. I like the Polo Shirts.
ROs have no uniform requirement.

Mike

JustinHEMI05

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #9 on: Jul 09, 2008, 04:46 »
So is it Dockers and polo shirts, t-shirt and jeans, or "just the TLD"?

At Peach Bottom, the MCR staff wheres slacks and white company shirts, either polo or button down. The NLOs can wear jeans and T shirts but most wear cotton scrubs just like doctors. They are much more comfortable and much easier to just take off and toss into a bin if you get crapped up or more probably...  gassed up.

At Palo Verde, they moved to NLO uniforms. I am not sure what kind of pants but they have grey polos now I think.

Justin

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #10 on: Jul 09, 2008, 07:40 »
Really, it depends on the plant.

Some plants require the operators to have a dress code at least during the dayshift.  Some actually issue polos, buttondowns, or Dickies with the company logo along with cargo pants (for NLO's) or Khaki's or (the ever-popular) dickies.  FPL even issues coveralls to its maintenance workers in addition to the uniforms for operators AND launder them at company expense.

Regardless of titles, Jack Lemmon and Wilford Brimley most likely BOTH had SRO licenses.

My old home plant always required at least one RO to be on the working side of the main control board.

Almost ALL commercial plants prohibit the wearing of hardhats in the Control Room unless you are doing some job that requires it.  Apparently, somebody dropped one on the board once and nearly caused an incident.

And BZ could not be more wrong about the turbine hall.  A "dirt-burner' comes by that name for more than one reason.   A coal-fired steam electric plant will have coal dust, fly ash, bottom ash, and dirt all over the place.  Sometimes, during an outage ( a major, once-in-a-lifetime outage) they will turn a firehose on the levels below the turbine and washdown most of this crap.  They sweep the turbine floor - and even polish them sometimes - but the material conditions are still shabby compared to nukes.  An oil-fired steamer will be cleaner, but not as neat or well-maintained as a nuke turbine building.  You'll see abandoned equipment, hanging wires, demolished walls, torn insulation, heat damage, steam leaks, and tons of other stuff that they won't spend the money to fix because there is no NRC or INPO to impress.  The only other type of power plant that comes close to the cleanliness and material upkeep of a nuke is a gas combustion turbine -- which would never be confused for a nuke.

The turbine building in this movie looked a lot like a cleaned-up oil fired steamer to me.

Without the technical discussion to cloud things up; the spent fuel would eventually return to the earth from whence it came.  The environmental impact in the local areas would be temporary, as evidenced by the area around Chernobyl.  Eventually life would adapt to the conditions in these areas and the radioactivity (while decaying) would merely be one of many environmental factors.
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Fermi2

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #11 on: Jul 09, 2008, 09:20 »
I have a First Class Steam Engineers License from the state of Ohio and worked at two dirtburners. The Turbine building layouts were exactly like the plant in that movie and very much like Sequoyah. If you took the Concrete walls out of the turbine building at a BWR it'd look like that plant too. Thee are minor differences of course but that Turbine building could have been a dirt burner or a nuke plant virtually anywhere in the states.

Offline 93-383

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #12 on: Jul 10, 2008, 12:47 »
Do modern comercial plants still use the (for lack of better words) really old IC systems displayed in the movie

Nuclear Renaissance

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #13 on: Jul 10, 2008, 12:55 »
Do modern comercial plants still use the (for lack of better words) really old IC systems displayed in the movie

What, like timing sequencers that look like the rotating drum barrels out of a self-playing piano? Or like switches that have two feet worth of contacts behind the panel such that the switch makes a big ka-chunk sound when you turn it?

Yes.

JustinHEMI05

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #14 on: Jul 10, 2008, 02:07 »
What, like timing sequencers that look like the rotating drum barrels out of a self-playing piano? Or like switches that have two feet worth of contacts behind the panel such that the switch makes a big ka-chunk sound when you turn it?

Yes.

+1. Like I said before, you thought the navy was behind the times... come to Peach once. :)

Justin

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #15 on: Jul 10, 2008, 08:49 »
I have to side with BZ on the material condition of a dirtburner discussion. The only one I was in was at Crystal River (1981) where I was assigned to do a monthly (quarterly?) routine survey at one of the coal plants next door. The place was immaculate, roomy and what I saw was very shiny and well kept. Granted, I did not get into the deep dark bowels of the plant, but for what I saw I was surprised and impressed.
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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #16 on: Jul 10, 2008, 11:59 »
Yeah, I guess the only part that I really didn't agree with was the word "anywhere".  As I wrote earlier, it was probably filmed in a fossil plant.  But, the vast majority of those simply could not be passed off as a nuke.  They are simply too filthy and shabby.  The turbine deck is usually not so bad, but even the clean ones would take millions in paint and upkeep to pass as a nuke.
A lot of that is changing now that big generation companies like Exelon and FPL are sending their nuclear managers to run the fossil units.  You see a lot more upkeep, outage scheduling, procedures, and the like in fossil units than you did before.  Still. most of them are just plain filthy.

Anyway, The China Syndrome was Hollywood's version of nuclear power.  It was a joke to those of us who have seen a real plant, but it was a documentary in comparison to Atomic Twister.
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PapaBear765

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #17 on: Jul 10, 2008, 05:19 »
Anyway, The China Syndrome was Hollywood's version of nuclear power.  It was a joke to those of us who have seen a real plant, but it was a documentary in comparison to Atomic Twister.

Anyone know of any other movies with commercial power in them?

What kind of important things are done manually in commercial land and which ones uses computers or are completely automated as compared to the navy?  For example: estimated critical positions (manual in the navy but could easily be done with Microsoft Excel), chemistry (now completely computerized in the navy), calorimetrics, etc.

Is working for the NRC a good deal, or does it have a lot of drawbacks compared to all of the other non-NRC jobs?

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #18 on: Jul 10, 2008, 07:22 »
It isn't even worth comparing the two.  They are not the same type of job.  In fact, some of the things you cite as examples are things you may or may not ever involve yourself with.  If you are an operator, you will not calculate ECP's. 
At least, not in any way which resembles what you did in the Navy.  A Reactor Engineer will use a special computer hookup to help him collect data during physics testing that he will use to calculate rod placement and Boron concentrations (in a PWR, where you actually dilute the reactor coolant to criticality with the rods in a predetermined position).
You will move fuel bundles once every 12 to 24 months.  Sometimes the machine will be computerized and sometimes you will do it manually.  Sometimes a vendor will operate it for you.
You will regenerate resin beds (ones that are bigger in volume than your whole engineroom), recycle the liquid that you discharge from the RCS, borate, deborate, discharge waste gas, .......

It is a totally different animal.  And that is without considering the Boiling Water Reactors like the ones that BZ operates.  (much better from a reactor control standpoint, but a pain in the butt for radiation exposure)

Some of the things will look the same.  Every control panel in the world is the same shade of puke gray-blue-green as your RPCP, but that is where the similarity ends.  The objective out here is to make the ratio of calendar days to EFPD equal to 1.  Yeah, that's EFPD with a D.  There is no fast recovery startup, no crashback drills, no 2F/2F, no spill drills, no EAB's, no reverse engine, no throttle wheels, no battleshort.  Everybody who works on site is a nuke (to one degree or another).  There is no Flank bell, but if there were it would be the only position on the dial other than Stop.  Training and eating do not compete for the same space.  You don't train on the actual control board - especially never a "casualty".  That's right - you NEVER trip a nuclear reactor for practice out here on land.  That is what simulators are for.

Actually, a huge portion of your training will be computerized.  There are some "magic box" looking instruments in chemistry that do analyses and spit out results.  (ion chromatograph, gas chromatograph, atomic absorption spectrophotometer, automatic titrators, gamma spectrometers, liquid scintillation counters, ... etc.)  There are even machines that will automatically count a stack of smears (swipes) and print out the results.  Radiation surveys are computerized in a lot of plants and handwritten in others - sometimes without even a map.  You normally step into a booth to exit an RCA instead of using a frisker.  You can survey your own notebook and flashlight out by sticking them in a thing that looks like a small refrigerator.

There are no EO's or MO's.  There are non-licensed operators (the ones who work outside the control room), Reactor Operators and Senior Reactor Operators (who work inside the control room).  A larger proportion of NLO's, RO's, and SRO's were Machinist Mates in the Navy than the other two rates.  I'm not sure why, but I think is is because MM's go to ops, while ET's go to instrumentation or reactor engineering or to something non nuke and EM's tend to stay electricians.  Naturally, it isn't right to generalize about these things.

You do not have to learn to do anyone else's job but your own unless you are their supervisor - in which case it is prohibited to know anything at all about their actual job.

Although you will be expected to maintain a professional appearance, and possibly a dress code (as discussed above) there will never be a time when having a serious discussion about work when a senior person will ask you if you shaved that morning just because you were right and he was wrong about which way to do the job.

There has never been a realistic motion picture made about nuclear power.  There is a VERY good reason for this.  Nuclear power is the most boring thing you can imagine.  It is safe, unglamorous, as uneventful as we can make it, reliable, clean, quiet, and duller than your uncle Charlie's stories about his vacation to Mount Rushmore.  Real-life nuclear power could not hold the attention of an audience for more than eight minutes.  Now, if you wanted to capture the antics of the employees that have nothing to do with the reactor, that might make a good flick.  We're talking about the same stuff that probably goes on in thousands of other workplaces though -- sex in elevators, affairs, divorces, financial hijinks, personality conflicts, ... the usual workplace stuff.  Come to think of it, that isn't very interesting either. 
« Last Edit: Jul 11, 2008, 11:28 by BeerCourt »
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JustinHEMI05

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #19 on: Jul 10, 2008, 08:13 »
Very very well said.

Justin

PapaBear765

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #20 on: Jul 11, 2008, 12:33 »
Some of the things will look the same.  Every control panel in the world is the same shade of puke gray-blue-green as your RPCP, but that is where the similarity ends.

Are you kidding?  I'm going to have to continue to look at that wonderful sea-foam green?  Arrr!

Thanks for the info.  How are casualties like fires handled?  Is it similar in that the guys closest to it fight it until the fire department comes?

JustinHEMI05

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #21 on: Jul 11, 2008, 12:53 »
Are you kidding?  I'm going to have to continue to look at that wonderful sea-foam green?  Arrr!

Thanks for the info.  How are casualties like fires handled?  Is it similar in that the guys closest to it fight it until the fire department comes?

Again... it depends on where you go. At Palo Verde they have a full fledge fire department that even responds to community fires. Here at Peach Bottom, we have a fire brigade made up of NLOs that go to fire school, just like the Navy. Difference is, they all get their own customized fire fighting gear so they aren't wearing the same disgusting sweaty FFE as 50 other guys.

Justin

matthew.b

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #22 on: Jul 11, 2008, 02:06 »
The Control Room was a mock up of an actual commercial Control Room. IIRC a utility offered the producers tours and such then were not happy when the movie came out.

The control room scenes were filmed at the Trojan simulator.  PGE was told it was a pro nuclear film and they agreed to let them use the simulator.  Yep, they were not happy to be misled.

matthew.b

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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #23 on: Jul 11, 2008, 02:11 »
Oh, and as a final little tidbit on the Trojan simulator, the simulator flooded in '96.  The visitor center building and the training building are ~ 20 feet lower than the plant site, and when the Columbia flooded, it rose to about a foot deep in the building.

After that, several Federal agencies used it for practice raiding buildings and blew a bunch of holes in it.  Last I saw it before it was demolished, you could walk through the outside wall and into a severely trashed simulator.




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Re: A couple of commercial questions
« Reply #24 on: Jul 11, 2008, 03:47 »
Fires are not very frequent in nuclear plants.  Y'see, they have lots of safeguards against fire.  There are sprinkler systems, roving fire watches, fire doors and barriers that you cannot hold open without a permit, fire-loading permits (you need permission to leave a wooden crate in the power block and possibly a fire watch to make sure it doesn't burst into flames), permits to have a flammable cabinet, housekeeping and maintenance inspections, a fire protection engineer on every site, added to the fact that everything is concrete and steel.

There are still some fires.  Mostly electrical.  Sometimes a butt can gets going good.  Occasionally, someone will start a little one with a welding torch - but there will be a firewatch with an extinguisher and a radio or phone right there.

Basically, fire is not the disaster that it can be inside a closed ship.  Even if you have to trip the reactor because of it, you don't have to worry about getting to the surface.  You are already there.  A reactor trip is not really a "casualty".  Neither is a case of chlorides in a S/G, nor a chem tech spilling a sample, or a seawater leak from a half-inch pipe.  These are problems, but they don't threaten life or the safety of the free world.

The stuff you train for is the "big one".  You have to be ready for a LOCA, or a loss of electrical power, or a big steam leak.  Yes, you will drill for fires.  But you will be trained and do it in full gear.  Only the fire brigade (as described above) will go anywhere near a fire.  A couple of times a year, the plant does the E-Plan drill, where you pretend that the core is melted and there is a plume of radioactivity blowing at a kindergarten.  The actual control room and on-duty operators will not be involved.  You'll do the procedures, the event will escalate, and it will all be over by quitting time.

Occasionally, you will run the contaminated injured worker drill where you have to get the person into an actual ambulance and to an actual hospital.  You will take far longer dicking around with the fact that he is contaminated than you should, and he will die of his injuries before you get him into the ambulance, but FEMA will say you are doing a wonderful job, and you'll get to pat yourselves on the back.
(The message that I'm trying to get across here is that if you see me bleeding or unconscious and NOT glowing blue get me to the #*@k!ng hospital and clean up the zoomie dust AFTER somebody saves my life PLEASE!!)
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