Conspiracy Theory...

[stephpatton]

I have read several posts about the Navy pushing so many new nukes through by lowering standards...Why are they doing this?
Not to sound so "conspiracy" minded, but what's the deal behind it all.  Are they planning on getting a surplus?  It seems like more and more are getting in than the past, so are they getting more subs and ships?  I know Mayport will be opening soon to carriers, are they planning on that?  What is the deal that they have more students than instructors to teach them, doubling up students,etc.  Perhaps they have other plans to use us in more ways that we do not know about yet.  Just a thought and wonder...

[Dave Warren]

OK, Steph....I found this for ya:       http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htatrit/20090522.aspx

May 22, 2009: No one in the navy was surprised when it was recently announced that fifteen of the 350 sailors, who that maintain the nuclear power plant on the carrier USS George Washington, had re-enlisted, and received bonuses of about $90,000 each (for agreeing to stay in uniform another 4-5 years). Carrier and submarine crews tend to agree that the nuclear power plant personnel are the hardest working sailors on board. A large part of the workload is paperwork. Twice in the last three years, the U.S. Navy has had to discipline sailors who maintain nuclear power plants for messing with their paperwork or training efforts. Back in 2007, several members of the nuclear power department on a nuclear submarine were disciplined for not maintaining logs properly. These sailors were worked hard, as is often the case on a nuclear sub, and they sometimes cut corners. A similar situation arose recently in the nuclear power department of the carrier Eisenhower. There, seventeen senior NCOs and a junior officer were punished for cheating on a requalification examination. Some of these exams are administered monthly, to insure that all those who work on the nuclear power plant are maintaining their skills.
For the last few years, the U.S. Navy now has had to pay more to keep experienced people with certain skills. Some types of submarine and nuclear power technicians can now get a bonus of up to $125,000 if they reenlist for three years. This came about because, next to the SEAL commandos, the submarine service, and nuclear power specialists, are the most selective, and candidates require nearly as much training. These specialists have an easy time getting good civilian jobs if they get out.

But the biggest attraction to leaving the navy is no more going to sea for up to six months at a time. This is tough on family life, and most sailors are married. The war on terror has meant more work for U.S. nuclear subs, which are very popular for staking out coastal areas where terrorists are operating. The problem also applies to those that staff the nuclear power plant on aircraft carriers. The navy will not lower standards for nuclear power specialists.

Those high standards are the main reason there has never been an accident with nuclear power plants used on hundreds of U.S. submarines and surface ships since the 1950s. This admirable safety record has not been easy to achieve, as the two cheating incidents, and the retention problems attest. Moreover, the navy sees the situation getting worse in the future. Rising oil prices have the United States building nuclear power plants again, and those with nuclear power plant experience will receive tempting offers to jump ship and settle down near one of the new power stations. The navy "nukes" will be particularly sought after because of the discipline and high training levels the navy maintains for those who run nuclear power plants. While some nukes will leave the navy, others will remain because of even larger bonuses.

[Preciousblue1965]

Steph, the following is only my opinion, but according to me it is 100% correct:

Navy Nukes have to be smart folks to begin with.  Now smart folks like to go to college, and sometimes college is payed for just for simply being smart.  So that doesn't leave a whole lot of people that the Navy can convince to become Navy nukes.  Now throw in the fact that college is becoming somewhat easier to afford with Lottery scholarships, government grants, and other things like that, the pool for possible candidates goes down even more.  So now you have two options, either lower your standards to allow more people in or do more to keep what you have.  The Navy is doing both.

First, the nuclear pipeline once had attrition rates in well above 50%(I might be wrong on this).  Over the years that attrition rate has dropped significantly down to single digits.  While some of this can be attributed to "smarter" generations of sailors who can learn quicker, the majority of the change is simply that we are not getting rid of those we used to, whether for academics or the non-academic judgement calls(all sorts of horror stories about guys getting thrown out of the program for demonstrating lack of integrity in any form).  Thus you get a massive influx of new "nukes"  that are being thrown out there to make up for losses to the civilian world and, ironically, those that get denuked for being screw-ups.  I always thought that the Navy treated its nukes like a pack mule: Put as much stuff as your can on a person, run them ragged for as long as you can, and if they give up and leave, oh well you got 3 more to take his place.  If they come back for more, throw some money at them and see how much more you can put on them.  

Secondly, this is why you are seeing re-up bonuses shooting through the roof.  People are getting tired of being run ragged, never getting overtime, and basically treated like indentured servants with pay.  Instead of trying to make life better, the Navy would rather keep the same old routine and throw money around and hope they get a few to bite.  Kinda like fishing with a 100 hooks vs just 1 hook.  Your chances of catching a fish or two go up significantly.  So the Navy will get just enough people to stay around for various reasons such as financial need for a large cash bonus, fear of the outside world, or other reasons. Those people will work their way up through the ranks, but in most cases you are left with less than the cream of the crop.  

So there is no conspiracy or anything like that.  The Navy is doing like everyone else in the government always does.  They are throwing money at a problem and hoping it works out.  When it quits working, they increase the money amount and when it quits working again, they will again increase the money amount.  The problem is that they don't understand that it won't matter how much they offer, it will never be worth it to most people.  Honestly, if you went up to someone who wasn't a nuke and said "hey I will give you 45K if you do this job for just two additional years" you would have to beat people off with a stick, especially now.  Nukes don't even blink an eye.

[stephpatton]

Thanks for the insight guys.  It all becomes clear to me now.  I guess it just didn't occur to me that retention rates are sooo low. I also didn't think of the fact that the U.S. will probably be turning to different energy resources, hence the demand for Navy Nukes on the outside  It just seems to me, and this is just an idea...that if the Navy really really needed more of the seasoned nukes to stay, instead of or in addition to offering more money, lighten the workload and watches.  If you're in port, and you had more nukes per ship that did watches, there would be less watches for each nuke per week...so instead of every 3 days, make it 5.  If it was closer to a 40-50 hour work week in port instead of 6 days a week and 2 of them 24 hour watches, maybe more would be inclined to stay.  I haven't experienced any Navy life yet, so maybe that idea is just too crazy or stupid.  But it always seems to me that in jobs where retention rate is so low, if you do something about work load ratios, morale is definitely better.  Poor morale is usually a sign of faulty management, be it time, money, work, or superiors.  If you only focus on the money, that still leaves a few more things that may need worked on. 

I think I'll have to do a poll to see what the balance is.  If retention is on one side of the scale; and time, money, work load, and having quality superiors were on the other...lets see if I can figure out how to do this.

[Preciousblue1965]

Thanks for the insight guys.  It all becomes clear to me now.  I guess it just didn't occur to me that retention rates are sooo low. I also didn't think of the fact that the U.S. will probably be turning to different energy resources, hence the demand for Navy Nukes on the outside  It just seems to me, and this is just an idea...that if the Navy really really needed more of the seasoned nukes to stay, instead of or in addition to offering more money, lighten the workload and watches.  If you're in port, and you had more nukes per ship that did watches, there would be less watches for each nuke per week...so instead of every 3 days, make it 5.  If it was closer to a 40-50 hour work week in port instead of 6 days a week and 2 of them 24 hour watches, maybe more would be inclined to stay.  I haven't experienced any Navy life yet, so maybe that idea is just too crazy or stupid.  But it always seems to me that in jobs where retention rate is so low, if you do something about work load ratios, morale is definitely better.  Poor morale is usually a sign of faulty management, be it time, money, work, or superiors.  If you only focus on the money, that still leaves a few more things that may need worked on. 

I think I'll have to do a poll to see what the balance is.  If retention is on one side of the scale; and time, money, work load, and having quality superiors were on the other...lets see if I can figure out how to do this.

Steph,

You are wise beyond your years.  You should print your post out and keep it with you for your entire enlistment.  By the end you will wonder how someone who had never been in could see something so clearly. 

[kp88]

But it always seems to me that in jobs where retention rate is so low, if you do something about work load ratios, morale is definitely better.  Poor morale is usually a sign of faulty management, be it time, money, work, or superiors.  If you only focus on the money, that still leaves a few more things that may need worked on. 

The Navy keeps score in a different way, but, in the commercial world, I think that it works like this.  The people that keep score, (bean-counters), do not care about morale.  A drop in earnings per share can be counted, morale cannot.  A hiring freeze will be implemented when profits must increase.
Experienced RP and Operations personnel are poached by departments with unfilled openings.  The now open positions in RP and Operations cannot be filled internally, thus they are affected by the hiring freeze.
This leads to more shift work to operate the plant, which still must get accomplished.  Megawatts produced will very much be counted. 
Luckily, the day staff performance improvement group is fully staffed.   

[Cycoticpenguin]

Steph, its a vicious cycle. To get people to stay, we need either a) A better command climate b) MUCH lighter work load or c) just being able to hack it.

The issue with these, is that we need more people to do any of it... We cant lighten the workload because we dont have enough people.. we lose people because our workload is so high. Cant fix the issue unless we CRAM people through. Im not a fan of it, but at the same time, Im not a fan of spending 90-100 hours a week in the plant underway.  And No, im not exaggerating.

[HydroDave63]

Steph, its a vicious cycle. To get people to stay, we need either a) A better command climate b) MUCH lighter work load or c) just being able to hack it.

Sounds awful.Sweaty.Depressing.Unfulfilling.

How did the fleet survive (without lowering standards) from Nautilus to now? 

[Preciousblue1965]

Sounds awful.Sweaty.Depressing.Unfulfilling.

How did the fleet survive (without lowering standards) from Nautilus to now? 

It might have had something to do with having people that cared about the guys under them and not just worked them until they burned out or transfered. Might have had something to do with guys didn't have to pick up the slack for guys that should be nukes to begin with, therfore not allowed to stand watch due to fear they will royally screw something up and are only good at taking up a billet spot, thus the work load wasn't worse than could be expected.  Of course it could be that it used to be considered something special to be bestowed the "golden NEC" and not just something that is being handed out left and right now.

[HydroDave63]

to ya!

[xforcehunter]

It's ALWAYS been 90 - 100 hours a week in the engineering spaces, more (a lot more) if you were not qualified senior-in-rate or if youu were DINQ,.... (SSN/SSBN)

On subs: 18 hour workday,...
              6 hours on watch,....
              2 out of every 3 off-going watches typically spent doing one or more of the following;
                    a) field day
                    b) drill sets
                    c) divisional training
                    d) departmental training
                    e) collateral duties (RPPO, 2L's, PMS, etc.,)

not as bad during spec ops

worse during pre-inspection work-ups

this was 20+ years ago, long before the current paradigm of "cramming" people through,...

me thinks it's just endemic to Navy nuclear propulsion over the decades (sic),...

what?!?!?  other sailors have done this job before us?  Well, it must be more difficult now than it used to be!  Nowadays we do PCO OPS, ORSE, and TRE with an up-angle the whole time, through hurricanes, and with no bug juice!  It's a rough life!  And all for a measly $60k - $70k a year!

[HydroDave63]

what?!?!?  other sailors have done this job before us?  Well, it must be more difficult now than it used to be!  Nowadays we do PCO OPS, ORSE, and TRE with an up-angle the whole time, through hurricanes, and with no bug juice!  It's a rough life!  And all for a measly $60k - $70k a year!

plus...plus...we ONLY get 4 hrs a day of internet, only 2 salad bars with freshies, and with 4 section augmented watches, I still can't remember where all the switchgears are that I signed off for PMS...

[Preciousblue1965]

what?!?!?  other sailors have done this job before us?  Well, it must be more difficult now than it used to be!  Nowadays we do PCO OPS, ORSE, and TRE with an up-angle the whole time, through hurricanes, and with no bug juice!  It's a rough life!  And all for a measly $60k - $70k a year!

You forgot the fact that we also have to sleep with one eye open to monitor the plant at all times and having to write logs in our own blood.

[Chimera]

We had to do port-and starboard watches (never enough qualified ROs in a 7-man division) plus routine maintenace and qualification time (had to help them toadettes) but at least we had bug juice.