Question about being on a Submarine

[curiousnuke]

First, I've posted here before, under a different username obviously. I post under a new username today, because I know the sort of responses I'm going to get for what I'm going to say. I can accept that, but at the same time, if anyone has any useful advice, please let me know.

I've been in the Navy for three years, and been on a Submarine for close to a year now. I hate it, absolutely hate it. I'm having a hard time adapting both physically and emotionally. I want to unsubvol and transition to the surface fleet. I'd be willing to reenlist to go to the surface fleet so the Navy still gets their fair share out of my time, but not if it means having to wait until three years and putting in a 1306. I don't think I can make it that long.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not a shitbag. I'm qualified senior in rate, and i'm almost qualified ships. I'm just having a really hard time adjusting and my physical health is also suffering (I've talked to doc, and he agrees but at the same time says that nothing has gotten bad enough for him to send me to a doctor to get disqualified submarines, and frankly I'm not going to intentionally worsen my health to get out of submarines.)

Is there any legal means for me to unsubvol? Any time I ask about it, people just laugh and give me the usual nuke-ish remarks. I've talked to YNC, but he's never had anyone seriously pursue the matter and doesn't know where to look for any instruction governing the issue, if it exists. I've googled my way through MILPERSMAN and similar documents, and I've found instructions governing the act and requirements for volunteering for submarines, but nothing on unvolunteering. It would seem that any such instruction, if it exists is buried somewhere deep in the archives of the DoN paperwork bureaucracy.


Thank you for your time, and before the hate-fest starts, let me reiterate that I don't hate the Navy, or my job, I'm just not cut out for the submarine force and would like to transition to the surface fleet before my physical and emotional health degrade to an unsafe point. 

[crusemm]

I'm qualified senior in rate, and i'm almost qualified ships.

Two things.  First a question.  How are you qualified SIR and not ship's?  Ship's is usually 9-12 months and SIR is usually 18 months.  Not saying it's not true, but if it is it is highly unusual.  Second, not sure if you can "unsubvol."  Pretty sure that you have to be sub disqualed.  I will look into it some more and ask some people I know, but that's my understanding.  I would like to know though more about why you hate it and what you have done to deal with it.  Feel free to PM me if you do not want to discuss it on the open forum.  Have a day 
-Matt

[shehane]

I spent almost 7 years in the Navy.  I did 4 patrols on SSBNs.  I found out that I had motion sickness so bad I would normally lose at least 25 pounds every patrol.  My Corpsman took my case up the chain after my first patrol and he was told "the only way to get off the sub will be if he reaches his end of service or he dies".  My problem was I spent 2 years on a sub tender and could not function at all when at sea on the pig bottom boat.  Since I had no where to go I toughed it out and got out.  Other than the sickness, I definitely perfered sub to surface.  As far as quals, if I remember right I was qualified subs in two patrols and ERS during my third.

[JustinHEMI05]

Two things.  First a question.  How are you qualified SIR and not ship's?  Ship's is usually 9-12 months and SIR is usually 18 months.  Not saying it's not true, but if it is it is highly unusual.  Second, not sure if you can "unsubvol."  Pretty sure that you have to be sub disqualed.  I will look into it some more and ask some people I know, but that's my understanding.  I would like to know though more about why you hate it and what you have done to deal with it.  Feel free to PM me if you do not want to discuss it on the open forum.  Have a day 
-Matt

I was qualified SIR before ships.

Have you spoken to your XO? He should be able to answer all of your questions. If he laughs at you, go up the chain.

[DDMurray]

First, I've posted here before, under a different username obviously. I post under a new username today, because I know the sort of responses I'm going to get for what I'm going to say. I can accept that, but at the same time, if anyone has any useful advice, please let me know.

I've been in the Navy for three years, and been on a Submarine for close to a year now. I hate it, absolutely hate it. I'm having a hard time adapting both physically and emotionally. I want to unsubvol and transition to the surface fleet. I'd be willing to reenlist to go to the surface fleet so the Navy still gets their fair share out of my time, but not if it means having to wait until three years and putting in a 1306. I don't think I can make it that long.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not a shitbag. I'm qualified senior in rate, and i'm almost qualified ships. I'm just having a really hard time adjusting and my physical health is also suffering (I've talked to doc, and he agrees but at the same time says that nothing has gotten bad enough for him to send me to a doctor to get disqualified submarines, and frankly I'm not going to intentionally worsen my health to get out of submarines.)

Is there any legal means for me to unsubvol? Any time I ask about it, people just laugh and give me the usual nuke-ish remarks. I've talked to YNC, but he's never had anyone seriously pursue the matter and doesn't know where to look for any instruction governing the issue, if it exists. I've googled my way through MILPERSMAN and similar documents, and I've found instructions governing the act and requirements for volunteering for submarines, but nothing on unvolunteering. It would seem that any such instruction, if it exists is buried somewhere deep in the archives of the DoN paperwork bureaucracy.


Thank you for your time, and before the hate-fest starts, let me reiterate that I don't hate the Navy, or my job, I'm just not cut out for the submarine force and would like to transition to the surface fleet before my physical and emotional health degrade to an unsafe point. 

I recommend that you contact the Surface MM(N) detailer.  In the end, it may come down to manning, but you'll get nowhere unless he has a need for you.  You'll have to serve at least two years (minimum activity tour) on the sub and submit a 1306/7.  Your command will likely not endorse it favorably.  Do not let this stop you from submitting the request anyway.  If your personal needs and the needs of the navy match, there's a chance you could go surface.  What makes you hate the submarine life?  Do you think the surface fleet will be that much better?   My gut tells me there is more to the story.  If you're having trouble coping, you may have medical grounds for getting sub disqual.  Be ready to be told no (more than once).  Good luck.

[crusemm]

so, after doing some initial research, this is what I have come up with.  From :Submarine Qualifications Designation for Enlisted Members MILPERSMAN 1220-040

13.  Disqualification for Duty.  A CO may, at any time, recommend to the appropriate disqualification authority, via the administrative chain of command, that any enlisted member serving under the CO's command be declared disqualified for submarine duty for any reason other than as a substitute for appropriate disciplinary action in the case of disciplinary offenses.  Disqualification shall not be utilized in lieu of a recommendation for separation of a member from Naval Service when separation is warranted and appropriate; however, a person being administratively or punitively separated will be disqualified from submarines when such separation has been directed.

14.  Criteria for Removal of Submarine Designator.  There are two general categories of justification for removal of a submarine designator:  
   a.  Physical disqualification, and
   b.  All other reasons.  This category may include, but is not limited to:
       (1) Inability or refusal to qualify or requalify in submarines.
       (2) Substance abuse (alcohol or drugs).
       (3) Loss of or inability to acquire a required security clearance, NEC, or limited access authority.
       (4) Removal from the Personnel Reliability Program (PRP).
       (5) Conscientious objector status.
       (6) Emotional instability.

So, from what I read here, at your CO's discretion, you can be removed from the submarine force.  However, I find it very unlikely that he will do that, as he will then have to explain his "failure" to keep you to his superiors, having to justify the loss, and having to find a replacement for you.  It is much easier for him to tell you to just "suck it up" than it is for him to actually take you off the ship.  I'm still looking in to some other things, but that's all I've got for now.

Also found this from MILPERSMAN 1306-402:
(1) All candidates must make the following entry on NAVPERS 1070/613 (7-06), Administrative Remarks prior to transfer to submarine training:

"I hereby volunteer for duty in any type of submarine in the Atlantic or Pacific Fleet.  I understand my minimum initial sea tour will be 36 months, regardless of prior sea duty.  I also agree to extend my enlistment or to reenlist, if necessary, to meet obligated service (OBLISERV) requirements per MILPERSMAN 1306-604."

                                  _____________________________

                                 Member's Signature
I'm pretty sure I signed one just like this, and so did you.  The more I look into it, the more I'm beginning to think that there is no real "Un Volunteering" process.  There is only disqualification, i.e. removal of your submarine designator.  I'm not saying that there is no answer for you, there have been a couple of options presented already.  However, no matter what it will not be an easy process.  The most likely scenario to my mind is that at some point, you will go to medical and be found medically unfit.  Not necessarily a bad thing, especially since if you have your dolphins you still get to wear them. 
Hope that this helped you out some. -Matt

[crusemm]

I was qualified SIR before ships.

Well, I just assumed that was because you were a Stupor Stud  , but then again your not the guy asking to get off the ship either. 

[JustinHEMI05]

Well, I just assumed that was because you were a Stupor Stud  , but then again your not the guy asking to get off the ship either. 

Ha. Naw, I made the decision that supporting the nukes was more important to me than getting my fish. There are several reasons, but this is off topic so... LOL

[curiousnuke]

I have not reenlisted.

I qualified SIR before Ships because I was more interested in supporting the aft section than getting a movie pass. And being a prior SPU, BEQ took me like, no time at all.

[FTN]

Learn everything you can while you can. if the answer is not what you think it might be, ask somebody else, keep asking/calling/emailing until what they have told you feels right to you, if it feels shady, it probably is, and people are just trying to cover themselves. everyhing here is legal way to get off the boat.

Manual of the Medical Department (NAVMED P-117): Chapter 15: Medical Examinations: Special Duty
15-69 Submarine Duty

Department of the Navy
Bureau of Medicine and Surgery
(1) Purpose. The purpose of the standard is to maximize the mission capabilities and to reduce the morbidity of the submarine force. The risk of medical morbidity, including the concomitant hazard of medical evacuation, is considered. Requirements for embarking nonsubmarine personnel, military, civilian government, or contractor are specified in SECNAVINST 6420.1 series.

    (a) Entrance. Submarine candidates must meet the physical standards for submarine duty. Medical examinations should be performed by a medical officer, preferably a UMO. The member's unit medical officer, i.e., the squadron or group medical officer, should perform the examinations of personnel attached to their unit and subordinate units. Only those individuals not physically qualified for submarine duty, but for whom waivers to the standards appears justified, need BUMED review per section V.
    (b) Continuation of Submarine Duty. The standards for continuation of submarine duty will be the same as for first acceptance for submarine duty. Waivers may be applied for per section V.

        (1) Submarine personnel reporting for duty following absence of greater than 90 days due to serious illness or injury; hospitalized hr any reason; reported on by a medical board (see article 18-27(3); or when returning to submarine duty after other duty of more than 2 years, will, at the earliest practicable date, have a Health Record review and such medical examination as may be required by an UMO to determine their physical qualification to resume submarine duty. This examination will be completed prior to the transfer of the member (see article 15 30). It a UMO is not available at the parent command, the nearest available UMO should perform this examination to ensure personnel arrive at their permanent duty station physically qualified for submarine duty.
        (2) Submarine personnel who have developed or are found to have disqualifying defects which preclude their ability to reasonably perform the duties of their grade or rate in submarines, or whose duty in submarines would be detrimental to their health, other members of the crew, or to the mission of the submarine, should be processed for submarine disqualification. The proximate UMO will make a recommendation on the SF 88 or SF 600 for all persons being processed for submarine physical disqualification.

(2) Additional Standards. Some items from section III may be duplicated here for emphasis. In addition to the standards listed in section III, the following are causes for rejection:

    (a) Ears

        (1) History of chronic inability to equalize pressure manifested by repeated aural barotrauma or persistent ear pain secondary to minor pressure variations (e.g., in aircraft, air lock, or elevator). In instances where a clinical determination cannot be made, the candidate must be subjected to a 27 PSIG (60 FSW) pressure test in a recompression chamber, per article 15~6(3)(a).
        (2) Inability to satisfactorily pass the pressure test noted above.
        (3) Hearing. As for initial acceptance except:

            (a) Qualified personnel must demonstrate ability to communicate and perform their duty.
            (b) All personnel (applicants or qualified) must have bilateral hearing and be able to understand the spoken word with either ear.

    (b) Eyes

        (1) The minimum visual acuity for unrestricted line officers (URL), quartermasters (OM), quartermaster strikers, and contact coordinators is any level of uncorrected visual acuity as long as it meets general entrance standards (see section III) and at least one eye is correctable to 20/20. Additionally, if more than 3 diopters of sphere or 1 diopter of cylinder is present in the refraction, the individual must wear contact lenses and demonstrate, with the lenses in place, an ability to achieve 20/25 vision in at least one eye or be able to achieve 20/25 with a spherical correction of 3 diopters or less.
        (2) Defective color vision except for supply corps officer, medical corps officer, storekeeper (SK), yeoman (YN), messmanagement specialist (MS), hospital corpsman (HM), and personnelman (PN) ratings. Testing will be conducted with the Farnsworth Lantern (FALANT). Waiver will be considered for submarine qualified personnel who can demonstrate a functional ability to discern color associated with their work environment; such requests must include the results of the FALANT test and a statement from the individual's supervisor attending to his or her ability to meet the color vision requirements of the position.

    (c) Lungs and Chest Wall

        (1) History of bronchial asthma (reactive airway disease) after age 12 (waivers will not be considered).
        (2) Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.
        (3) History of spontaneous pneumothorax.

    (d) Abdominal Organs and Gastrointestinal System. History of disease such as severe colitis or irritable bowel syndrome, peptic ulcer disease, duodenal ulcer disease, recurrent or chronic pancreatitis, or chronic diarrhea, gastrointestinal tract perforation. or hemorrhage. Waivers will not be considered unless they have been asymptomatic on an unrestricted diet without medication during the past 2 years and currently have no radiographic or endoscopic evidence of active disease or of severe scarring or deformity. Waivers will be considered for ulcerative proctitis.
    (e) Urinary System. History of urinary tract calculus.
    (f) Extremities

        (1) Conditions which result in decreased strength or range of motion or presents with symptoms of inhibiting pain of such nature to interfere with ready movement about a submarine or performance of duties.
        (2) Conditions causing a person to be excessively prone to injury.

    (g) Spine, Scapula, Ribs, and Sacroiliac Joints. Any conditions which preclude ready movement in confined spaces, inability to stand or sit for prolonged periods.
    (h) Skin and Cellular Tissues

        (1) Any condition which may be aggravated by the submarine environment.
        (2) Acne vulgaris, moderate or severe.
        (3) History of psoriasis or eczema.
        (4) Unexplained or recurrent rashes.
        (5) Atopic dermatitis.

    (i) Psychiatric. Because of the nature of the duties and responsibilities of each person in a submarine, the psychological fitness of applicants for submarine training must be carefully appraised. The objective is to elicit evidence of tendencies which might prevent satisfactory adjustment to submarine life. Among these are below average intelligence, claustrophobic tendencies, lack of motivation, unhealthy motivation, history of personal ineffectiveness, difficulties in interpersonal relations, lack of adaptability, or personality disorders.

        (1) Any examinee diagnosed by a psychiatrist, clinical psychologist, or UMO as suffering from depression, psychosis, manic depression, paranoia, severe neurosis, severe borderline personality, or schizophrenia will be recommended for submarine disqualification at the time of initial diagnosis. Waiver request may be submitted per section V.
        (2) Those personnel with diagnosed suicidal ideation will have their cases reviewed, as a minimum, by the type commander (TYCOM) medical officer, if a UMO, for fleet personnel, or MED 21 it at a shore establishment, to determine the necessity for disqualification or return to duty. Personnel with suicidal gestures or attempts will be recommended for submarine disqualification. Waivers will be considered on in individual basis per section V.
        (3) Those personnel with minor psychiatric disorders such as acute situational stress reactions will be evaluated by the local group or squadron UMO in conjunction with a formal psychiatric evaluation when necessary. Those cases which resolve completely, quickly, and without significant psychotherapy can be found tit for submarine duty by the responsible local UMO, it deemed appropriate. Those cases in which confusion exists must be reviewed by the TYCOM medical officer, if a UMO, for fleet personnel, or MED 21 for shore based personnel. It must be stressed that any consideration for return to duty in these cases must address the issue of whether the service member, in the written opinions of the UMO and the member's commanding officer, can successfully return to the specific stresses and environment of submarine duty.

    (j) Dental. All dental treatment should be completed prior to transfer of the member for training or sea duty (see article 1 5 30).

        (1) Indications of, or currently under treatment for, any acute infection disease of the soft tissues of the oral cavity.
        (2) Candidates for basic submarine school must be classified by a dental officer as Class I or 11 (see article 6 101) prior to executing such orders.
        (3) Medically indicated conditions requiring extensive or prolonged follow-up which could not be completed due to the training w operational requirements of member's assignment, e.g., orthodontics.

    (k) Systemic Diseases and Miscellaneous Conditions

        (1) Allergic or atopic manifestations which require allergy immunotherapy.
        (2) A member, on submarine duty, who develops allergies which require immunotherapy will be considered for waiver if:

            (a) Therapy is not for stinging venomous in sects.
            (b) AIT injections may be discontinued while the ship is underway.
            (c) The member's AIT kit is Kept at the squadron or group medical department and used under the supervision of a medical officer in a facility where emergency care can be provided for anaphylaxis.

        (3) History of migraine headaches that are recurrent, incapacitating, or require the chronic use of medications for control.

(3) Special Studies. In addition to the special studies required in article 15-9, also perform a standard chest x ray within preceding 6 months, on initial application and when clinically indicated.

(4) Periodicity. Medical examinations will be conducted per article 15-11.