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Offline OldHP

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #150 on: Mar 13, 2011, 08:39 »
Quote from: Marlin on Today at 15:23
I have heard that some people were treated for radiation sickness but that does not jive with the levels of radiation that I have seen published. Media hype I am sure, has anyone seen any real numbers? Today's update lists one worker who received 100mSv enough to see blood changes with a baseline but not high enough I would expect treatment.

The first reports of radiation sickness were immediately following the utility's report of several workers going to the hospital with broken bones from the Unit 1 explosion.  Contaminated injured man perhaps?  Like everything else in the news this weekend, not enough info.


Or very possibly the media response - "Someone went to the hospital from a nuclear facility, it must be radiation sickness"!
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pvengr

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #151 on: Mar 13, 2011, 08:39 »
Not surprised that the NYTimes was first to post an article like this:

U.S. Nuclear Industry Faces New Uncertainty
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/science/earth/14politics.html?_r=1&hp

Also- thanks for this great thread. Have been spending the last few hours reading up on here. Knew I could count on all of you for some acurate information in this sea of moronic reporting.

Surprisingly that article didn't sound as bad as I thought it would.

Offline Marlin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #152 on: Mar 13, 2011, 08:45 »
Quote from: Marlin on Today at 15:23
I have heard that some people were treated for radiation sickness but that does not jive with the levels of radiation that I have seen published. Media hype I am sure, has anyone seen any real numbers? Today's update lists one worker who received 100mSv enough to see blood changes with a baseline but not high enough I would expect treatment.

The first reports of radiation sickness were immediately following the utility's report of several workers going to the hospital with broken bones from the Unit 1 explosion.  Contaminated injured man perhaps?  Like everything else in the news this weekend, not enough info.


Or very possibly the media response - "Someone went to the hospital from a nuclear facility, it must be radiation sickness"!

Very likely.

Offline remer

Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #153 on: Mar 13, 2011, 10:24 »
Here's the "sound and white smoke" from a different angle. You can clearly see flames so the H2 did ignite.

Offline tr

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #154 on: Mar 13, 2011, 10:44 »
It appears that the same secondary containment hydrogen explosion just occurred at Daiichi Unit 3.  The (poor) television pictures seemed to show more damage to the actual concrete portion of the reactor building that at Unit 1.

Offline tr

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #155 on: Mar 13, 2011, 10:50 »
Link to English feed from Japanese HNK TV network

http://jibtv.com/program/fullscreen.aspx

Offline remer

Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #156 on: Mar 13, 2011, 10:54 »
It appears that the same secondary containment hydrogen explosion just occurred at Daiichi Unit 3.  The (poor) television pictures seemed to show more damage to the actual concrete portion of the reactor building that at Unit 1.

Here is a video of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIZKlaEZMLY

It looks much larger than Unit 1

Offline Sambax

Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #157 on: Mar 13, 2011, 11:11 »
Does anyone know if they where using hydrogen water chemistry onsite at Fukushima, or is all the hydrogen from zirc/water or radiolysis?  And for those who don't think you can't see hydrogen burn >>

Offline Bleyse

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #158 on: Mar 13, 2011, 11:17 »
In the generators I'm familiar with, the hydrogen is kept in using turbine lube oil.  On a loss of all AC power, the turbine building battery powers a DC pump to provide lube oil as the turbine as the turbine coasts down.  Before the battery goes dead, someone needs to go out and open the vent to dump the hydrogen above the roof.  If no-one opens the vent valve, the hydrogen will vent out along the shaft at both ends of the generator.  With 60-75 PSI of hydrogen in the generator, a whole lot hydrogen will vent into the turbine building quickly.

Well yes, hydrogen cooling for generators is oftentimes maintained using a seal oil type system.  I think the hydrogen concern in this case is a result of a fuel cladding reaction with the coolant which occurs at very high temperatures.  Just my opinion.

God be with the people in Japan.

Offline Marlin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #159 on: Mar 13, 2011, 11:51 »
I have heard that some people were treated for radiation sickness but that does not jive with the levels of radiation that I have seen published. Media hype I am sure, has anyone seen any real numbers? Today's update lists one worker who received 100mSv enough to see blood changes with a baseline but not high enough I would expect treatment.

After listening closely to some of the reports, it may be that they are calling administration of iodine tablets treatment for "Radiation Sickness" as opposed to treatment for potential exposure. Just a bit of confusion on the part of the media.

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #160 on: Mar 13, 2011, 11:52 »
After listening closely to some of the reports, it may be that they are calling administration of iodine tablets treatment for "Radiation Sickness" as opposed to treatment for potential exposure. Just a bit of confusion on the part of the media.

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Offline Sambax

Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #161 on: Mar 14, 2011, 01:01 »

Press Release (Mar 14,2011)
White smoke around the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station Unit 3 (2nd release)


At approximately 11:01am, an explosive sound followed by white smoke
occurred at the reactor building of the Unit 3. It was believed to be a
hydrogen explosion.

According to the parameter, it is estimated that the reactor containment
vessel remains intact. However, the status of the plant and the impact of
radioactive materials to the outside environment are presently under
investigation. (previously announced)

As of 12:00 am, 4 TEPCO employees and 2 workers of related companies have
sustained injuries (all of them are conscious) and ambulances are on
their way to care for them.

As of 11:44 am, the measured value of radiation dose near MP6 is 20╬╝Sv/h
and the radiation level remains stable.

TEPCO continues to take all measures to restore the safety and security
of the site and are monitoring the site's immediate surroundings.

Offline jkj

Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #162 on: Mar 14, 2011, 04:35 »
One thing I've always wondered about the design of the Mark I reactors---- with secondary containment exposed with the " blow-out" panels blown-off-----how's the spent fuel pool doing? Can they cool and maintain the pool? Do you have rad ducks and sea-gull mutants swimming around in the pool? Maybe they ran down to home-depot for a pool tarp and a garden hose. ???
Words fail me and pictures aren't much better.

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #163 on: Mar 14, 2011, 06:03 »
Will someone please explain wind direction and source term to the people driving the big boat...I take it they have been briefed by now.  Perhaps there was an unexpected shift in wind direction.  Perhaps radioactivity will be released when those "explosions" occur.  Perhaps a little KI before you decide to park in the downwind direction.  Just hoping the best for our kids out there on that big adventure.  I'm sure I just don't have the context.  Probably one of those "you just had to be there" moments.  I'm sure the nukes on the Reagan have expressed their questioning attitude about driving through the plume.  Maybe they were getting an air sample.  Yeah, that's it, an air sample. 

Offline Matthew B

Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #164 on: Mar 14, 2011, 10:10 »
One thing I've always wondered about the design of the Mark I reactors---- with secondary containment exposed with the " blow-out" panels blown-off-----how's the spent fuel pool doing? Can they cool and maintain the pool? Do you have rad ducks and sea-gull mutants swimming around in the pool? Maybe they ran down to home-depot for a pool tarp and a garden hose. ???

I'm wondering the same thing.

At least they will have far less fuel load in the pool than a typical US plant since Japan actually has a spent fuel policy.

Offline hamsamich

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #165 on: Mar 14, 2011, 10:36 »
Questions with my guesses.  Anybody with more BWR experience than me care to help me?

Why wouldn't RCIC operate for more than 8 hours since it is steam powered?  Gov valve is powered by electricity. Diesels OOC, NO Off site power

Why do the RBs keep blowing up?  Cement Building can't withstand more than a few pounds of pressurization.  Drywell can't be vented properly, DW has more DW to RB leaks due to quakes, Diesels are OOC, RB ventalition doesn't have power/quake damage. DW coolers don't have cooling/power.  SRVs have no power.  Suppresion Pool Cooling gone.  No offsite power.  Manual Valve operation to vent Drywell straight to atmosphere (MOV won't have power)?

atomicarcheologist

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #166 on: Mar 14, 2011, 11:04 »
Anybody else watch 60 Minutes last night?  They had a "nuclear expert" on explaining the plant and damage.  The display that he used for illustration was for a PWR 2 loop NPP.  I was laughing so hard I darn near lost my cold medicine through my nose!  :)

Albert

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #167 on: Mar 14, 2011, 11:09 »
Anybody else watch 60 Minutes last night?  They had a "nuclear expert" on explaining the plant and damage.  The display that he used for illustration was for a PWR 2 loop NPP.  I was laughing so hard I darn near lost my cold medicine through my nose!  :)

Yeah, I noticed that - pretty much discredited anything he might say.

BWB519

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #168 on: Mar 14, 2011, 11:55 »
"Questions with my guesses.  Anybody with more BWR experience than me care to help me?

Why wouldn't RCIC operate for more than 8 hours since it is steam powered?  Gov valve is powered by electricity. Diesels OOC, NO Off site power"


-RCIC would be able to function without power (being a steam driven turbine that operates the pump).  The 8 hours is the capacity of DC power that operates the MOVs in the system.  All of the main DC powered valves would be able to be operated by an operator in the field by simply de-clutching the motor and using the handwheel to operate it.  The problem with continued operation of RCIC is that the steam exhaust from the turbine is routed to the Torus (or suppression pool) and you will drive the temperature and level of the Torus upward.  I believe that this is what they did.  They stated in their press release that they had reached 100 degrees (aka 212 F) in their suppression pool and thereby lost its functionality.


Marvin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #169 on: Mar 14, 2011, 12:02 »
In the Nuclear World, this aphorism by Nassim Nicholas Taleb is particularly true:

"Academia is to knowledge as prostitution is to love"  Taleb goes on to note that prostitutes do occasionally fall in love.  It is interesting how many of the "nuclear experts" are really not experts at all.  I am sure we will see a lot of these "nuclear experts" weigh in during the media frenzy.

"The Bed of Procustes" is the Taleb book if you are wondering...same guy that wrote "The Black Swan" (no, not the recent ballet movie).  The 8.9 earthquake followed by the tsunami is a classic black swan event.

Well, anyway...go back to work :)

matthew.b

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #170 on: Mar 14, 2011, 12:15 »
Does anyone know if they where using hydrogen water chemistry onsite at Fukushima, or is all the hydrogen from zirc/water or radiolysis? 

I don't think any BWR uses hydrogen water chemistry.  Since the water is boiling, any hydrogen would instantly come out of solution and head for the condenser and eventually the plant stack.

matthew.b

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #171 on: Mar 14, 2011, 12:19 »
-RCIC would be able to function without power (being a steam driven turbine that operates the pump).  The 8 hours is the capacity of DC power that operates the MOVs in the system.  All of the main DC powered valves would be able to be operated by an operator in the field by simply de-clutching the motor and using the handwheel to operate it.

Isn't the steam seal exhaust blower and the seal condenser condensate pump DC operated too?  I'm guessing that wouldn't prohibit operation of RCIC, but it would make the local area much more hot (in both senses) with the turbine exhaust leaking out into the pump room.

The problem with continued operation of RCIC is that the steam exhaust from the turbine is routed to the Torus (or suppression pool) and you will drive the temperature and level of the Torus upward.  I believe that this is what they did.  They stated in their press release that they had reached 100 degrees (aka 212 F) in their suppression pool and thereby lost its functionality.

Can't the turbine operate with a bunch of back pressure? I thought it could operate up to containment design pressure.

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #172 on: Mar 14, 2011, 12:21 »
I don't think any BWR uses hydrogen water chemistry.  Since the water is boiling, any hydrogen would instantly come out of solution and head for the condenser and eventually the plant stack.


Peach Bottom uses HWC. We have an entire building dedicated to recombining it.

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #173 on: Mar 14, 2011, 12:23 »
Isn't the steam seal exhaust blower and the seal condenser condensate pump DC operated too?  I'm guessing that wouldn't prohibit operation of RCIC, but it would make the local area much more hot (in both senses) with the turbine exhaust leaking out into the pump room.

Can't the turbine operate with a bunch of back pressure? I thought it could operate up to containment design pressure.

It isn't about the turbine, it was about the containment. Eventually, containment parameters degrade to the point where the emergency procedures direct you to stop all discharges to containment from things like steam driven pumps.

matthew.b

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #174 on: Mar 14, 2011, 12:24 »
Why do the RBs keep blowing up?  Cement Building can't withstand more than a few pounds of pressurization.  Drywell can't be vented properly, DW has more DW to RB leaks due to quakes, Diesels are OOC, RB ventalition doesn't have power/quake damage. DW coolers don't have cooling/power.  SRVs have no power.  Suppresion Pool Cooling gone.  No offsite power.  Manual Valve operation to vent Drywell straight to atmosphere (MOV won't have power)?

The top of a Mark 1 containment is just a metal skin over steel framing.  Above the refueling deck the only function of the building is to keep ducks and seagulls from taking a swim in the spent fuel pool.

On unit 1 all that appears to have happened is the skin is gone.  It looks like there is more damage to unit 3.   There must have been hydrogen down in some of the lower level rooms.

 


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