Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake

[chimmike]

Okay. Can we get back on topic here?

I'm one of those noobs who genuinely want to learn more about what's going on at Daiichi. I'm not here to argue for or against nuclear power. Honestly, I'm for it, but I know enough to know I don't know anything in terms of forming a logical argument for or against it.

Gracias!

[Marlin]

Okay. Can we get back on topic here?

I'm one of those noobs who genuinely want to learn more about what's going on at Daiichi. I'm not here to argue for or against nuclear power. Honestly, I'm for it, but I know enough to know I don't know anything in terms of forming a logical argument for or against it.

Gracias!

Not a lot new there but here is an article on comparison of Fukishima to Chernobyl:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/12/us-japan-fukushima-idUSTRE73B1RH20110412

I noted that the lead in (Reuters) - "Japan on Tuesday raised the severity level of its nuclear crisis to put it on par with the 1986 Chernobyl accident, the world's worst nuclear power disaster." does not match the body of the text "Fukushima has its own unique risks, but comparing it to Chernobyl is going too far. Fukushima is unlikely to have the kind of impact on the health of people in neighboring countries, the way Chernobyl did," said nuclear specialist Kenji Sumita at Osaka University.". This seems to be an ongoing media slant on almost all news outlets to sell the story.

[Marlin]

I would like a moderator to remove all posts not directly related to "Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake", and kindly put them in their own topic.

Just finished you can open them up. 

New topic is:  Pointed questions for nuclear enthusiasts and careerists

[roadhp]

Just read about the robot results from units 1 and 3.  4.9 R/hr and 5.7 R/hr.  Not surprising, considering the known fuel damage, but the results don't say where, if it is an average or hot spot.  Anyone have anything else on this?

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/04/17/japanese-government-disaster-plan/?test=latestnews

[plutone]

By the way you are still a psuedo intellectual troll your post here is just more proof of that.

Name calling is still exceeding serious answers 10 to 1.

1) Will Fukushima #5 and 6 ever operate again?

2) Ballpark estimates of total cost of Fukushima, including loss of investment, remediation, evacuation, interuption of business claims, real estate and food production losses?

3) Do similar reactors in US have backup power to their SFPs? (I get conflicting opinions on this).

[ski2313]

I would have to believe that the spent fuel pools are supplied by the safety-related busses.  Can someone verify this for me?
That would be the busses that were being supplied by the diesel generators at Fukushima until the tsunami hit and knocked them offline.  

In my plant, the service water system provides cooling to the spent fuel pool heat exchangers.. the SW pumps and spent fuel pool pumps are safeguards equipment, and on protected busses, powered by the diesels like you said. edit: However, i believe the SFP pumps are initially "stripped" off the safeguards busses, as it typically takes a number of days before SFP heat is a pressing issue. That gives the Ops team time to restore offsite power, or re-fuel the diesel tanks, etc.. Of course, having an entire core offloaded into your SFP for refueling or inspection changes that a little (like in one of the Fukushima units).

I wonder if the tsunami physically took out both trains of the diesel generators themselves at fukushima (if they even have separate trains??), or if the wave simply took out the fuel tanks, effectively disabling both? (or all of the above?).. In any case, losing emergency backup power is bad.. No SI, no aux feed (pwr of course), no spent fuel cooling, no RHR for RCS cooling... Everything was going well after the earthquake. The other plant (Daichi?), which was only a few miles from the epicenter (much closer than the fukushima plants) shut itself down just fine.. It was definitely the wave that did fukushima in. It will be interesting to see what new system enhancements/recommendations/requirements come out of this event for U.S. plants.

[Radwasted]

From what I have gathered is TEPCO is using military grade robots from iRobot in Bedford MA and robots from Mitsui Engineering from Japan. The Mitsui robot can be remote operated from as far as a kilometer away with a 3D thermographic camera. The main purpose of iRobots err robot is explosive ordinance disposal. Only one iRobot from Ma is fitted with the capabilties of detecting radiation.

RW

[Nuclear Renaissance]

Quote from: plutone on Yesterday at 21:47

1) Will Fukushima #5 and 6 ever operate again?

2) Ballpark estimates of total cost of Fukushima, including loss of investment, remediation, evacuation, interuption of business claims, real estate and food production losses?

3) Do similar reactors in US have backup power to their SFPs? (I get conflicting opinions on this).



1. If the future dose rates from 1-4 don't prevent it, and the tsunami replacement costs don't approach the cost of constructing new generation, then I would say yes, as they need the power. The geography of 5 & 6 has proven that it does not suffer the same kind of common mode failure with waves as 1-4.

2. US financial firms have estimated this based on the current roadmap TEPCO has laid out ($24 billion) and a worst-case ($130 billion)

3. Yes spent fuel pool cooling has power availability from emergency electrical, which has redundant sources. Unfortunately all the redundancy went away with the the 45 ft wave and sustained flood. Emergency diesel generators are in Class 1E seismic/flood qualified structures, and so are a few days supply for fuel for each and all their respective cooling water pumps. But, I suspect the impact of the wave knocked out the cooling pump structure, which would've tripped the emergency diesel generators very shortly thereafter. Saturation of all the electrical cable runs and components by the sustained flooding probably then put them in this situation of slowly restoring or replacing all the wetted equipment.

[namlive]

I did see a picture on line of a robot going into what wass described as the reactor building.  It was through a hinged door.  Those dose rates are well within human working levels if you have a 25 REM/ yr limit.

[bismuth-210]

these photos -->  http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp10/daiichi-photos10.htm

[Radwasted]

Areva and Veolia Water to decontaminate water at Fukushima Nuclear station.

http://nuclearstreet.com/nuclear_power_industry_news/b/nuclear_power_news/archive/2011/04/20/areva-and-veolia-water-to-decontaminate-water-at-fukushima-nuclear-station-042003.aspx

[Marlin]

Here are a couple of links about robots being used at Fukishima:

From a Japanese news outlet (includes video of robot at work)

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/video/

Robotic Aerial Vehicle Captures Footage of Fukushima Reactors

http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/industrial-robots/robotic-aerial-vehicle-at-fukushima-reactors

[Frankie Love]

Robotic Aerial Vehicle Captures Footage of Fukushima Reactors

Must see pictures! Wow, talk about bad timing. Earthquake and tsunami hits during refueling outage. 

[namlive]

Here are a couple of links about robots being used at Fukishima:

From a Japanese news outlet (includes vidoe of robot at work)
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/video/
Robotic Aerial Vehicle Captures Footage of Fukushima Reactors
http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/industrial-robots/robotic-aerial-vehicle-at-fukushima-reactors

Cool photos. I wish I had this Karma thing figured out, I would toss some your way. Even after an earthquake and melting the bejesus out of the core, the reactor building still looks cleaner than PB and the dose rates are less than OYC.  Time to crank that baby up.

[Marlin]

Cool photos. I wish I had this Karma thing figured out, I would toss some your way. Even after an earthquake and melting the bejesus out of the core, the reactor building still looks cleaner than PB and the dose rates are less than OYC.  Time to crank that baby up.

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[Radwasted]

Summary of reactor status.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/53554592/Table-Summary-of-Reactor-Unit-Status-at-21-April-0700-UTC

[RealityCheck]

I have been on nukeworker for almost 10 years and have been in the nuclear industry since most of you were born....RealityCheck is not my first moniker...my position/work does not allow me to be anything but anonymous...nukeworker has allowed the moderators to delete posts based on their personal position...this forum, which was once considered useful, has became useless...and the product of myopic minds.

[MacGyver]

I have been on nukeworker for almost 10 years and have been in the nuclear industry since most of you were born....RealityCheck is not my first moniker...my position/work does not allow me to be anything but anonymous...nukeworker has allowed the moderators to delete posts based on their personal position...this forum, which was once considered useful, has became useless...and the product of myopic minds.

Yeah Yeah .. Yadda Yadda Yadda .. My goodness do you write with this many fallacies at work?  If so, I can then understand why you would want to be anonymous.

Try using less logic fallacies in the future for better results.  Thanks in advance your hin'nass.

[namlive]

 I try to be anonymous, but damn if everybody doesn't know who I am.

[Cycoticpenguin]

I have been on nukeworker for almost 10 years and have been in the nuclear industry since most of you were born....RealityCheck is not my first moniker...my position/work does not allow me to be anything but anonymous...nukeworker has allowed the moderators to delete posts based on their personal position...this forum, which was once considered useful, has became useless...and the product of myopic minds.

Why are you here then? You have done nothing  but spread discord and grief with your presence. In my response now, I am letting you win, but only because I choose to do so. If its so "useless", then 1) do something and fix it or 2) shut up/leave. Its pretty simple and everyone wins with whichever choice you decide, unless you go for the hidden option 3) ignore everyone, and continue this holier-then-though ranting which has absolutely nothing to do with topics at hand.

that said, I implore people to ignore any more ignoramus responses from you until you decide to actually fight against your proclivity to be annoying/nuisance.

My 2 cents, but I feel Im throwing out nickels and dimes instead of pennies.

Mac -> you're implying there's any logic in his statements kind sir.

[RAD-GHOST]

I have been on nukeworker for almost 10 years and have been in the nuclear industry since most of you were born....RealityCheck is not my first moniker...my position/work does not allow me to be anything but anonymous...nukeworker has allowed the moderators to delete posts based on their personal position...this forum, which was once considered useful, has became useless...and the product of myopic minds.

What color is your Cape and Mask.............

RG

[RealityCheck]

Marlin's wrestling with pigs quote keeps coming to mind...glad to see that you are all passionate about something...even if it is misdirected.

[MacGyver]

Marlin's wrestling with pigs quote keeps coming to mind...glad to see that you are all passionate about something...even if it is misdirected.

[namlive]

I have been on nukeworker for almost 10 years and have been in the nuclear industry since most of you were born....RealityCheck is not my first moniker...my position/work does not allow me to be anything but anonymous...nukeworker has allowed the moderators to delete posts based on their personal position...this forum, which was once considered useful, has became useless...and the product of myopic minds.

I think they are just jealous of your avatar. At 65 your position should be "retired."

[OldHP]

I think they are just jealous of your avatar. At 65 your position should be "retired."

Watch what you're saying youngster, some of us are still feeling young and working well past 65!   

Then again, others should have gone down that road much earlier! 

Since 'realitycheck' probably meant to say "before" instead of "since", since employment in the field yesterday would qualify as being in the field since all posters were born.