Need clarification/Advice

[AudioFreak]

Good evening Nukeworker members,

I recently graduated college with a degree in Communication (3.2 gpa). I went to my recruiter last week, took the practice ASVAB impromptu and scored well enough for my recruiter to push me towards the Nuclear program. This wasn't my first experience with an enlisted recruiter though, so i'm extremely wary of everything they say 

The enlisted recruiter referred me to an officer recruiter to be a pilot, but said I should apply for both the enlisted position for Nuke School and for the Officer pilot position. His reasoning was if I didn't make the pilot rating I would fall back into the nuke school. If I DID make it into the officer position they could cancel the enlisted contract.

It sounds fishy to me. I havn't signed anything, but tomorrow morning they want me to come in to sign a request to test for the ASVAB. Is this even worth doing if I would rather take the officer route?

What is the probability of going enlisted to officer through STA-21 or the BOOST program?


Read through quite a few threads now and am just soaking up all of the information 

Regards,

Audio

[spekkio]

You are ineligible for STA-21 because you have a college degree, so your chances are 0%.

To qualify for a commission, you need to take the ASTB, which is a separate aptitude test from the ASVAB. You need to study for this, unless you just naturally know how to read runways, know all the parts of an aircraft and ship, know all the nicknames for Naval aircraft in use since WWII, and can read flag signals before takeoff. Also, the reading and math is like the SAT on crack and if you don't practice it's likely you'll run out of time. Go to www.airwarriors.com and www.usnavyocs.com to obtain some study material.

You can apply for a commission while in DEP, but considering that you are ready to go it doesn't really make sense for you to do them simultaneously.

Pilot and enlisted nuke are two very very different career paths and both require a lot of commitment. Make sure you are doing what you want to do for the right reasons.

[AudioFreak]

Thank you for the clarification/links spekkio.

As for commitment, I have no prior engagements.. no wife, kids etc. As for the right reasons, would wanting to legitimately learn physics be a good reason? I developed a yearning for science and math in my last two years at university.

Parents are both 20 years retired USAF so military life doesn't bother me. Civilian life sucks anyhow (Everyone here in Colorado just smokes weed all day  )

[SpaceJustice]

Thank you for the clarification/links spekkio.

As for commitment, I have no prior engagements.. no wife, kids etc. As for the right reasons, would wanting to legitimately learn physics be a good reason? I developed a yearning for science and math in my last two years at university.

Parents are both 20 years retired USAF so military life doesn't bother me. Civilian life sucks anyhow (Everyone here in Colorado just smokes weed all day  )

If you have yearning for science then I recommend going back to college, if that's a possibility.  The stuff on the enlisted side is pretty watered down.

[spekkio]

As for commitment, I have no prior engagements.. no wife, kids etc. As for the right reasons, would wanting to legitimately learn physics be a good reason?

No.

The officer nuke pipeline expects that you already know basic physics as it's required for entry.

Enlisted nukes learn to operate reactors, nuke officers do that and drive ships/subs, and pilots learn to fly aircraft.

If you want to learn physics go to college.

[AudioFreak]

If you have yearning for science then I recommend going back to college, if that's a possibility.  The stuff on the enlisted side is pretty watered down.

I'd love to go back to college. The costs are what make me cringe. I believe tuition just went up another 8% or so after I graduated.

No.

The officer nuke pipeline expects that you already know basic physics as it's required for entry.

Enlisted nukes learn to operate reactors, nuke officers do that and drive ships/subs, and pilots learn to fly aircraft.

If you want to learn physics go to college.

Understood  

If I may ask, what were your reasons for joining? (I'm assuming you went through the enlisted pipeline?)


Edit*

This thread helped a bit with the above question: http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,36006.0.html   (Thank you SpaceJustice), Though more input would be beneficial of course  If everyone is like you spekkio, I would honestly love the 'social' aspect of being a Nuke... Can't stand thin skinned, flaky people.. 

[spekkio]

I originally looked at military service in college when I was trying to go to medical school. I figured it was a way to contribute to the country and I'd get to travel while doing it. Well, that didn't work out and because I put all my eggs in one basket (you can't tell a 20 year old that who's never really failed at anything that he needs a backup), I wasn't qualified for much civilian employment outside of entry-level admin jobs or being a lab rat. Looking at the classifieds for jobs, I mostly saw:

-Nursing
-Some kind of technician/construction
-Administrative assistant/billing
-Engineering

All of which required 3-5 years of experience even if I had the right degree.

After bouncing around jobs reminiscent of Office Space, I gave the military a second look and saw the nuke officer program. Since technical/engineering jobs seemed in demand, I figured I could knock out two birds with one stone by scratching the serve my country itch and getting experience in engineering. I felt that this would set me up for a lot of options after my initial commitment; I could make another play at med school with GI bill assistance, I could use my experience to transition to nuclear power, or I could pursue further education/employment in another technical field. That's something that, say, being an artillery officer just couldn't offer.

Turns out I really liked the submarining aspect of the job (which is not what the recruiter will try to sell you on for sub officer and you have to get a little lucky with timing to actually get significant tactical experience in your JO tour), so I stuck around.

What I found out after joining the Navy is as follows:
-I really don't find the operational aspect of nuclear power exciting. Something about monitoring plant parameters that don't change while the boat is on a mission trying to collect stuff isn't really cool.
-The tech used on Navy nuclear reactors is nowhere near as 'cutting edge' that the recruiter makes it seem. All the modern gear is put into the combat systems, sometimes at the expense of reliability.
-Submariners work A LOT.
-The Navy nuke training pipeline isn't widely recognized by academia, so to pursue a career in engineering I'd still have to go back to an undergraduate university to get a technical degree and take all the certification exams.
-It would be really nice if I could predict that I'd be in one spot for more than 3 years so I could actually buy a house and accumulate an asset (I am married with children).

GLW put it best in the thread you linked:

Well, we're always glad we stayed because of CIVLANT employment enhancement,...

However, if you knew from the get go the USN was going to be your career for 20 years or more,...

NNPP is the last thing I would suggest to anybody,...

There are so many better 20 year options in the USN than NNPP,...

Had I known I was going to stick around more than 5 years for sure, I would've picked pilot or NFO in a heartbeat. While I was getting a good deal by standing 4-section duty (spend every 4th night on the sub, day starts at 0545 for pre-duty tour and often goes until 2200, but then there's a midnight tour to do and you're up again at 0500), my friend as a new guy in his helo squadron had 2 days a month, max 1 weekend day, and he spent the day at home after 1600 unless an emergency got called in (DWI, arrest, etc). He gets mando 8 hours in the rack underway; I was lucky if I got a full 6 in my oncoming time (the 6 hours before watch). He doesn't do deployment workups at-sea or inspections at-sea (1-4 week in-and-outs where the commodore and his staff stand over the crew and question every little thing you do). And the biggest one: he gets to fly an aircraft and make decisions about its safety without having to call an O-5 first. The QOL can't compare and the officer pay/bonuses for either community are not that far apart to account for it. Most submarine officers (myself included) will tell you that the best (and worst) of times was standing surfaced OOD. We only surface to transit into and out of ports, which lasts somewhere around 12-36 hours in most areas.

For enlisted nukes, the career outlook in the Navy is not good. The work only gets tougher as you get more senior since NR expects you to directly monitor everything under the sun as a nuke CPO and you will never get away from 3 or 4-section duty, at least not on an SSN, and that's inbetween working 16 hour days to run your division to get everything fixed in an aggressively short amount of time. Underway, you rove the ER watching people take logs or participate in drills you've done a billion times, waiting for the next opportunity to bail out your watchteam when someone screws up or something breaks. Both of which will lead to you being up for 24 hours straight. And you do all this for about 1/2-2/3 of what you'd be worth if you just got out, used the GI bill, and sought employment elsewhere. All the skills/schools you need to set you up for gainful civilian employment can be gotten on your first enlistment.

The biggest draw of the NNPP, particularly for enlisted nukes, is that it's an investment for well-paying civilian employment. But you're gonna put a lot into that investment.

[HeavyD]

To back up Spekkio's comment about nuclear power not being exciting, here's something to chew on.

Operations is boring.  If it's not, something has usually gone wrong.  Casualty response not only makes watch exciting, it's why we do those drills billions of times 

The plant is remarkably self sufficient, to a degree.  During transients, the plant systems react and respond, bringing the operating parameters back to levels close to the pre-transient levels.  We, the operators, are there to ensure that everything runs as it should. 

Also, the technology is not on the cutting edge.  However, there is a reason for this.  Everything on a ship or sub has to be built to withstand trauma/shock associated with such things as missile strikes, torpedo hits, and underwater mines.  It is, for the most part, old but reliable and rugged technology.  It works, the backups work and things keep on working during the high stress of a battle scenario.  Fortunately for most of us, we make it to the end of our career without having to see any of this in action.

Last nugget of knowledge; as a previous surface Chief, I can echo some of what Spekkio said for longterm career outlook.  I joined in 1991.  Made First in 1996, Chief in 2000.  Things were very different in the pre- 9/11 military.  Deployments were about the US showing off her biggest and baddest toys (carriers) while we spent at least 5 days in at least 10 different ports.  Post 9/11, we were doing what our job is about; on station for 3-4 weeks at a time, providing air support for our brothers and sisters in Iraq or Afghanistan. 

When my last carrier left the shipyard in December 2007, we spent around 80% of the time between then and our deployment in September 2008 actually underway.  Before the "War on Terrorism" (about as winable as the War on Drugs), a carrier spent 18 months between deployments.  Now, the aveage time is around 8-10 months.

"What's the point this old guy is trying to make?"  I enjoyed my time.  I enjoyed nuclear power, enjoyed spending time with my friends, thoroughly enjoyed watching my sailors excel and succeed, did NOT enjoy being responsible for teaching young sailors the kind of crap their parents failed to teach them (life as a Chief).  However, if I were to join now I don;t think I would stay in pat my first tour; one reenlistment and a shore tour at most.  The grind and stress are vastly different now

Just wanted to offer up these insights into our world, both past and present.  Take everything that we retired, current and past Navy Nukes offer up here.  Hopefully we can continue to watch out for sailors, even future ones.

Best of luck and thank you for considering serving!

[AudioFreak]

I originally looked at military service in college when I was trying to go to medical school. I figured it was a way to contribute to the country and I'd get to travel while doing it. Well, that didn't work out and because I put all my eggs in one basket (you can't tell a 20 year old that who's never really failed at anything that he needs a backup), I wasn't qualified for much civilian employment outside of entry-level admin jobs or being a lab rat. Looking at the classifieds for jobs, I mostly saw:

-Nursing
-Some kind of technician/construction
-Administrative assistant/billing
-Engineering

All of which required 3-5 years of experience even if I had the right degree.

After bouncing around jobs reminiscent of Office Space, I gave the military a second look and saw the nuke officer program. Since technical/engineering jobs seemed in demand, I figured I could knock out two birds with one stone by scratching the serve my country itch and getting experience in engineering. I felt that this would set me up for a lot of options after my initial commitment; I could make another play at med school with GI bill assistance, I could use my experience to transition to nuclear power, or I could pursue further education/employment in another technical field. That's something that, say, being an artillery officer just couldn't offer.

Turns out I really liked the submarining aspect of the job (which is not what the recruiter will try to sell you on for sub officer and you have to get a little lucky with timing to actually get significant tactical experience in your JO tour), so I stuck around.

What I found out after joining the Navy is as follows:
-I really don't find the operational aspect of nuclear power exciting. Something about monitoring plant parameters that don't change while the boat is on a mission trying to collect stuff isn't really cool.
-The tech used on Navy nuclear reactors is nowhere near as 'cutting edge' that the recruiter makes it seem. All the modern gear is put into the combat systems, sometimes at the expense of reliability.
-Submariners work A LOT.
-The Navy nuke training pipeline isn't widely recognized by academia, so to pursue a career in engineering I'd still have to go back to an undergraduate university to get a technical degree and take all the certification exams.
-It would be really nice if I could predict that I'd be in one spot for more than 3 years so I could actually buy a house and accumulate an asset (I am married with children).

GLW put it best in the thread you linked:Had I known I was going to stick around more than 5 years for sure, I would've picked pilot or NFO in a heartbeat. While I was getting a good deal by standing 4-section duty (spend every 4th night on the sub, day starts at 0545 for pre-duty tour and often goes until 2200, but then there's a midnight tour to do and you're up again at 0500), my friend as a new guy in his helo squadron had 2 days a month, max 1 weekend day, and he spent the day at home after 1600 unless an emergency got called in (DWI, arrest, etc). He gets mando 8 hours in the rack underway; I was lucky if I got a full 6 in my oncoming time (the 6 hours before watch). He doesn't do deployment workups at-sea or inspections at-sea (1-4 week in-and-outs where the commodore and his staff stand over the crew and question every little thing you do). And the biggest one: he gets to fly an aircraft and make decisions about its safety without having to call an O-5 first. The QOL can't compare and the officer pay/bonuses for either community are not that far apart to account for it. Most submarine officers (myself included) will tell you that the best (and worst) of times was standing surfaced OOD. We only surface to transit into and out of ports, which lasts somewhere around 12-36 hours in most areas.

For enlisted nukes, the career outlook in the Navy is not good. The work only gets tougher as you get more senior since NR expects you to directly monitor everything under the sun as a nuke CPO and you will never get away from 3 or 4-section duty, at least not on an SSN, and that's inbetween working 16 hour days to run your division to get everything fixed in an aggressively short amount of time. Underway, you rove the ER watching people take logs or participate in drills you've done a billion times, waiting for the next opportunity to bail out your watchteam when someone screws up or something breaks. Both of which will lead to you being up for 24 hours straight. And you do all this for about 1/2-2/3 of what you'd be worth if you just got out, used the GI bill, and sought employment elsewhere. All the skills/schools you need to set you up for gainful civilian employment can be gotten on your first enlistment.

The biggest draw of the NNPP, particularly for enlisted nukes, is that it's an investment for well-paying civilian employment. But you're gonna put a lot into that investment.

This sounds nearly identical to my current situation -med school. Add to the fact that I want to move out of my parents basement (Graduated a month ago - it's driving me nuts) and want to start my own life. I worked during college as an account executive for a small local manufacturing company on an unpaid internship, and was also a wedding DJ for my last year (actually pretty fun). But I want to grow the hell up, work my ass off, and earn my right to be an American. Pardon my French..

The Post Navy benefits are just the end of the transformation..

To back up Spekkio's comment about nuclear power not being exciting, here's something to chew on.

Operations is boring.  If it's not, something has usually gone wrong.  Casualty response not only makes watch exciting, it's why we do those drills billions of times 

The plant is remarkably self sufficient, to a degree.  During transients, the plant systems react and respond, bringing the operating parameters back to levels close to the pre-transient levels.  We, the operators, are there to ensure that everything runs as it should. 

Also, the technology is not on the cutting edge.  However, there is a reason for this.  Everything on a ship or sub has to be built to withstand trauma/shock associated with such things as missile strikes, torpedo hits, and underwater mines.  It is, for the most part, old but reliable and rugged technology.  It works, the backups work and things keep on working during the high stress of a battle scenario.  Fortunately for most of us, we make it to the end of our career without having to see any of this in action.

Last nugget of knowledge; as a previous surface Chief, I can echo some of what Spekkio said for longterm career outlook.  I joined in 1991.  Made First in 1996, Chief in 2000.  Things were very different in the pre- 9/11 military.  Deployments were about the US showing off her biggest and baddest toys (carriers) while we spent at least 5 days in at least 10 different ports.  Post 9/11, we were doing what our job is about; on station for 3-4 weeks at a time, providing air support for our brothers and sisters in Iraq or Afghanistan. 

When my last carrier left the shipyard in December 2007, we spent around 80% of the time between then and our deployment in September 2008 actually underway.  Before the "War on Terrorism" (about as winable as the War on Drugs), a carrier spent 18 months between deployments.  Now, the aveage time is around 8-10 months.

"What's the point this old guy is trying to make?"  I enjoyed my time.  I enjoyed nuclear power, enjoyed spending time with my friends, thoroughly enjoyed watching my sailors excel and succeed, did NOT enjoy being responsible for teaching young sailors the kind of crap their parents failed to teach them (life as a Chief).  However, if I were to join now I don;t think I would stay in pat my first tour; one reenlistment and a shore tour at most.  The grind and stress are vastly different now

Just wanted to offer up these insights into our world, both past and present.  Take everything that we retired, current and past Navy Nukes offer up here.  Hopefully we can continue to watch out for sailors, even future ones.

Best of luck and thank you for considering serving!

Great insight, and a bit more of an optimistic outlook than most of the information I've absorbed from the site  I think if I just keep my normal attitude (optimistic realist? ..) I think i'll be fine. For now I am focused on testing and researching ratings. If I decide to join and go nuke, then hopefully I can *maybe* do something similar to yota..

Thank you both for your insight.. hindsight.. and everything in between.. and thank you for serving! 

[spekkio]

One caution: Don't buy the super-secret squirrel having access to classified info is so awesome propaganda. Again, while my buddy is studying his FAA manuals on the beach, I was in a windowless room studying stuff that is stamped confidential, even though you can find it on wikipedia or a basic textbook.* Dealing with classified material is just a pain in the butt.

[EM UMPTY SQUAT]

^^ its not WHAT you're learning that is necessarily confidential (some of it really is confidential such as schematics, certain magical numbers etc etc) but the fact that YOU are learning it, the information learned is equally important to the manner and methods in which you learned it, this pipeline is the product of 60 years of THE UNITED STATES NAVY using nuclear reactors, clearly we don't want to just hand off all the information we've accumulated over these 60 years through the whole trial and error and don't do this, don't teach him that, oh he needs to know that, to any other country. Let them figure it out all on their own. Believe it or not, the 18 months(ish) of schooling you get teaches you a good BASE of knowledge for becoming something useful.

[GLW]

^^ its not WHAT you're learning that is necessarily confidential (some of it really is confidential such as schematics, certain magical numbers etc etc) but the fact that YOU are learning it, the information learned is equally important to the manner and methods in which you learned it, this pipeline is the product of 60 years of THE UNITED STATES NAVY using nuclear reactors, clearly we don't want to just hand off all the information we've accumulated over these 60 years through the whole trial and error and don't do this, don't teach him that, oh he needs to know that, to any other country. Let them figure it out all on their own. Believe it or not, the 18 months(ish) of schooling you get teaches you a good BASE of knowledge for becoming something useful.

glad to see the kool aid is still working,...

we handed "it" off to the brits just fine,...

lots of "it" is in the library, and,........oh,.....never mind,......even watching the Yankees decline is better than this,....

good luck to ya and I (we) sincerely thank you for your service,....

[spekkio]

^^ its not WHAT you're learning that is necessarily confidential (some of it really is confidential such as schematics, certain magical numbers etc etc) but the fact that YOU are learning it, the information learned is equally important to the manner and methods in which you learned it, this pipeline is the product of 60 years of THE UNITED STATES NAVY using nuclear reactors, clearly we don't want to just hand off all the information we've accumulated over these 60 years through the whole trial and error and don't do this, don't teach him that, oh he needs to know that, to any other country. Let them figure it out all on their own. Believe it or not, the 18 months(ish) of schooling you get teaches you a good BASE of knowledge for becoming something useful.

NNPI was classified because we didn't want adversaries to get nuclear propulsion so that they could never build reliable SSBNs.

Well, the cat is out of the bag in 2013. It's just that no one wants to be the guy responsible on the off-chance declassifying NNPI does in fact lead to SSBN proliferation.

I had a UK officer graduate PNEO with me. He went on a deployment on a US submarine, got his dolphins, and saw all the TS/SCI stuff the American crew saw. Yea, I know...he's not from Russia or China, but those countries have already figured out how to build mini PWR, too.