Physics Student questions Navy Nuke Program (Advise Please)

[EarthDecon]

Hello, I'm 24 years old and I recently spoke to a recruiter for the Navy Nuclear Program.  I'll try to make my questions as straightforward as possible.

I was told that I had to make a decision if I wanted to actively enlist for the Navy Nuclear Program before my 25th birthday whether I wanted to do it or not, which is another year from this past March.

I am currently working on a Bachelor's in Physics but I am nowhere near done (probably a sophomore, need at least 2 years more).

I'd love to finish my bachelor's in physics and get a Ph.D./Master's in Nuclear Engineering later in life, however I'd also like to go to the NNP because I heard it's a great opportunity. I'd like to work hands-on fixing reactors, if that helps.

My first question is:
1. Is it possible (does anyone have experience) to receive a Bachelor's (preferably in Physics) whilst working for the Navy during the 4-5 year commitment after the initial 2 years of training?

2. Is it a better choice to complete my Bachelor's and then enlist or is that just not possible because of my age?

I'd greatly appreciate any and all help that the wise Nukes and workers in this forum can provide, especially from those who already attended the Nuke program and have experience which getting educated during, before, or after the NNP.  Thank you.

[spekkio]

1- It is technically possible but highly unlikely. Your main hurdle will be attending labs, which you won't have time to do. Your second hurdle will be studying advanced physics concepts in your spare time between 3 section duty and 80-100 hours spent on the boat each week.

2- Complete your degree if you want a career using physics. The nuclear Navy has like two physics equations that you'll ever need to know.

If you want a career learning a trade while being a janitor then enlist in the nuclear Navy. If you just want GI bill money join the AF or become something like a MC or STG in the Navy and ride 4 years of easy street.

[GLW]

1- It is technically possible but highly unlikely. Your main hurdle will be attending labs, which you won't have time to do. Your second hurdle will be studying advanced physics concepts in your spare time between 3 section duty and 80-100 hours spent on the boat each week.

2- Complete your degree if you want a career using physics. The nuclear Navy has like two physics equations that you'll ever need to know.

If you want a career learning a trade while being a janitor then enlist in the nuclear Navy. If you just want GI bill money join the AF or become something like a MC or STG in the Navy and ride 4 years of easy street.

at first glance that appears a bit harsh yet it is essentially true to type,...

the unhappiest first term enlisted nukes I recall seemed to be the ones who had it in their heads that a nuke submariner was somehow akin to being Geordi La Forge or Montgomery Scott,...

the OP and others should heed spekkio's pithy assessment,...

and read through the related threads here at NW.com some more,...

[mars88]

At least finish your degree first--you can always go nuke officer after that should you still want to join the Navy.

Doing anything else "whilst" being in the NNPP is very difficult.

If it's a financial reason, then enlist and become a machinist (not a machinist mate).  That way you'll not only have a good trade and GI bill $, but you can use that knowledge for when you pursue your engineering degree, as top colleges have a machine shop in their engineering departments.

[EarthDecon]

Yes, I have browsed over the forum for a bit and the majority vote is to complete my degree if I really wanted it and then decide whether to enlist.  Although I'm a bit concerned about my age being a factor, I know it's possible from what I've read on the forum to enlist at 26-27 with an age waiver. 

I do also understand that although the workload for everyone is different, it is a lot of works for nukes with the long hours and shifts every day. Now I understand how it is theoretically possible, but most nukes decide on a less difficult online degree.

I appreciate everyone's feedback, it certainly is informative.  One quick question, how do the online/carrier/submarine classes work? Forgive me if it's been addressed already, I am currently searching through all resources.  Thanks in advance.

[GLW]

Yes, I have browsed over the forum for a bit and the majority vote is to complete my degree if I really wanted it and then decide whether to enlist.  Although I'm a bit concerned about my age being a factor, I know it's possible from what I've read on the forum to enlist at 26-27 with an age waiver. 

I do also understand that although the workload for everyone is different, it is a lot of works for nukes with the long hours and shifts every day. Now I understand how it is theoretically possible, but most nukes decide on a less difficult online degree.

I appreciate everyone's feedback, it certainly is informative.  One quick question, how do the online/carrier/submarine classes work? Forgive me if it's been addressed already, I am currently searching through all resources.  Thanks in advance.

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,36638.0.html

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,18514.0.html

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,36322.0.html

[spekkio]

BLUF: You are joining the nuclear Navy for the wrong reasons based on your post. If your passion is physics, then finish your degree. There is nothing wrong with that path.

Enlisting post-grad is probably not a wise decision for you, either. There are shelf-lives on technical degrees and 6-8 years spent plugging leads into 1980s-era server cabinets or greasing various parts of an engineroom is not going to keep that knowledge sharp.

I appreciate everyone's feedback, it certainly is informative.  One quick question, how do the online/carrier/submarine classes work? Forgive me if it's been addressed already, I am currently searching through all resources.  Thanks in advance.

Submarines:

There are no classes. It's entirely self-study. You at most will be allowed to take 1 or 2 PACE courses. I don't know if they'll have Optics 304 or whatever it is that Physics majors need to take to graduate; all I've ever seen a Sailor take is 100/200 level courses and I've never seen anyone get better than a C. Most end up asking the XO to waste the Navy's money and cancel the course.

Your only time to take them is going to be deployment, at least on an SSN. That's 6 out of every 18 months. During workups you will be far too busy with drills, admin, training, etc. to be able to handle classwork. During extended drydock periods the nukes are still very busy setting plant conditions for shipyard bubbas.

Few people on the boat will be supportive of your college classwork. They would rather you work on further qualifications -- EWS, Quality Assurance quals, etc. Big Navy doesn't care about your college classwork as an enlisted Sailor either; Big Navy wants you to qualify EWS, reenlist, make Chief, and Serve as LPO at sea. At which point Big Navy wants you to qualify EDMC, make senior chief, and be an EDMC somewhere.

Let me put it this way:

You're MM2 EarthDecon on a patrol and you've just gotten off your 6 hours of watch. You eat for 30 min. You do your 1 hour of after-watch cleanup. Then you have Eng Dept training for an hour. Then you have divisional training for an hour (on days that you don't do this, substitute post-watch preventative maintenance or monitored evolutions). Because the Dept did poorly on LOK on the last ORSE, you also have mandatory eng dept self study for an hour. You now have 6.5-7 hours before you are woken up for your next watch.

Tomorrow you will be up for 20 hours straight because drills are planned during your oncoming time and you got selected to be a drill monitor; the brief starts 4 hours into your off-going so as not to interfere with the meal, so even if you weren't hot-racking you'd be able to only get about 2 hours down tops.

Do you A) do your physics HW or B) go to the rack?

And that is why your plan to do college coursework at sea is stupid. Your opportunity to seek higher education as an enlisted nuke is either post-EAOS with the GI bill or via STA-21, the latter is highly competitive and largely based on your evaluations as a Sailor.

PS: That was the easy deployment schedule I referred to.

[Chimera]

I tried to complete a Nuclear Engineering degree while underway on nuclear power.  The first drawback: It's all self-study with no one to ask when you hit a stumbling block.  The second drawback: Not enough time to study and not enough quiet to concentrate.  Needless to say, I didn't finish.  My second attempt at a degree in physics ended in the fourth year when the complications of married life with children and a full-time job took up too much of my time.

So, if you really want the degree, get it now while all that stuff is still in your head.  You'll be amazed at how fast you will forget things if you don't use them.  Once you have your bachelors degree, you can then decide if post-graduate work is in the cards for your life as it will exist then.  As for the Navy, you don't need them to work on your degree.  If you're thinkig of the Navy for the paycheck, talk to your RSO to see what may be available on campus or nearby.

[EarthDecon]

I truly appreciate everyone's answers. They are certainly informative, especially the way spekkio put it.  Although, I do have a passion for physics, I figure it is a good way to finish a physics bachelor's, since it'll take me less time to complete than any Engineering degree. 

Here in Miami, there's incredibly limited Nuclear Engineering related education, if none at all.  That's why I figured complete the Physics Bachelor's while I had a chance, then go to Nuke school. 

Once out of Nuke school and the 4-5 year commitment back to the civilian life, I can apply to any graduate school for a Masters/Ph.D. in Nuclear Engineering already with the experience of a Nuke with a Bachelor's and have the Navy pay some of that graduate level education.

From my research in this forum and out of it, I'm getting the implication that Navy Nuke School makes getting a Master's in Nuclear Engineering after the Navy much easier with the experience and that it is possible.  Am I incorrect in my reasoning that it's possible and that the Navy will pay for some of that education? I appreciate any feedback.

[HeavyD]

From my research in this forum and out of it, I'm getting the implication that Navy Nuke School makes getting a Master's in Nuclear Engineering after the Navy much easier with the experience and that it is possible.  Am I incorrect in my reasoning that it's possible and that the Navy will pay for some of that education? I appreciate any feedback.

If you are talking about post-EAOS, the Navy doesn't pay for any education.  The VA pays, if you choose to use the benefits earned on active duty.

http://www.benefits.va.gov/gibill/

Keep in mind, however, that this isn't possible until you've completed your contractual obligation (6 years).

I'm also not sold on the Navy's Nuke program making it easier to get your Masters/PhD.  The experience you get is actual hands-on operation/maintenance of the plant and it's components; you will get very little extended experience with theory or research on active duty.  What it can do for you is teach you how to take in massive amounts of information in a very compacted time frame, sort through it and regurgitate what is most pertinent during exams/oral boards.  Think trying to drink from a firehose; that's the most commonly used analogy.

What we do (or did, for some of us) in the Navy is very different than what a lot of people think.  You will spend the vast majority of your time either qualifying something (quals never end.  NEVER.) or standing watch (during which you are mostly monitoring equipment) or doing maintenance or cleaning something (cause the Navy has no janitor rate) or doing something military related that has nothing to do with being a Nuke or attending training (Training never ends either.  Again, NEVER.).

To reiterate, once again, if physics is your passion, FINISH YOUR DEGREE.  Just because others chose the Navy during their life doesn't mean you need to as well.  Volunteering to serve means just that; you are performing tasks decided by others, for the benefit of others.  Even on a carrier, there ends up being little time for classwork if you have even a single collateral duty.  If you end up being a hot-runner and performing well, then you get the "good deal".  That deal can be summed up by 2 quotes from first Senior Chief.  "The more you work, the more you work." and "No good deed ever goes unpunished."  Take those for what you will.

Before you decide that you want to get your degree and become a Nuke officer, you need to figure out WHY you want to be an officer.  I can't speak for sub officers (Spekkio is an invaluable asset for that life), but my experiences with surface officers was that they spent the majority of their careers doing things OTHER than nuclear.  Not to mention that to be an officer is to be a leader; whether it be as a Division Officer who learns well from their Chief to a PA (Principal Assistant) to a Department Head to XO or CO.  Managing people and processes is what the Navy wants out of those that hold commissions.  If this isn't what you want to do with part of your life, don't try to be an officer.

Again, best of luck with whichever path you choose!   

[Content1]

I took your path and joined the Navy.  When I was 14 and before the NRC existed, I was interested in Nuclear subjects and even bought legal small quantities of radioisotopes and a Geiger counter.  When I went into the Navy, I never got back to pursuing physics and I turn 59 this year.  What got in the way? Family, jobs and life.  I plan to go back to school at age 60 to finish, because I want to.  They have a free tuition program for senior citizens in my state.  The janitor skills post is so true.  It you like to work in physics, stay in school and finish.

[modex]

The greatest asset the navy will provide for succeeding in real nuclear education is a work ethic and tolerance for working very long hours. The knowledge you gain in the navy will merely provide an intuition for nuclear engineering design and analysis. The navy does not provide actual 'engineering' training to nukes, but does provide simplified safety analysis results, analysis of operational problems, materials information primarily specific to naval reactor construction, and a basic understanding of controls and safety systems. It will not provide you any substantive training regarding transport, radiation detectors, or reactor modelling and simulation, among other core skills of a NE education.

As far as graduate education, if you want to do PhD, you will likely need to matriculate as MS and work your way into research. PhD students are more employees than students. If you don't bring skills to the group (and you won't with just your naval experience), they won't fund you.

It sounds like you have little or no research experience, so I would say that you don't know what you're getting into. It sounds like you aren't interested in physics research, or NE research, but are bored or looking for purpose. The navy will give you a purpose, and a rigid structure for working and living. This is the opposite of academic life.

My navy experience got me into one of the best NE undergrad programs and a couple undergrad RA's. The work I did in those groups is what got me into a highly-competitive NE grad program.
All the nukes in my undergrad did great, but these people were the type who weren't happy in their service (FTN types). The theoretical knowledge you need to succeed across a 20-year career constitutes a semester or two(maybe) of NE undergrad. If you want to understand more, or contribute to NE at a high level, the navy will not provide that opportunity to you as an operator, as it is not your job, and the actual engineering data is classified higher than your clearance and need-to-know. You also won't be fixing reactors, in the sense that I think you mean. Only emergent and low-level repairs are tasked to operators. Shore facilities and vendors are responsible for this.

If you want to join out of a sense of duty, that's a good reason. If it is to further your education, then it is a questionable reason, as it will set back your education for years, and not provide the important theoretical and practical experience with the tools of engineering.

[Starkist]

Based on my experience, and from what I "feel", your training fades after a couple years. The fundamentals will be stuck with me for life (circle-slashing procedures, safety checking everything, standing a proper watch, etc  fundamental activities), but your training as a nuke will fade after a couple years. Its probably still an awesome resume bullet, but your schooling will take precedence over anything you would have done in the navy. I am "close" to  finishing my engineering degree, and the amount of separation between being a "navy nuke" and an "engineer" is enormous. I can't imagine how much a physics doctorate would trump that experience. You are trained to operate and perform maintenance, and almost none of your training is viable to engineering or physics beyond  macro and micro nuclear things specific to a small, floating PWR reactor.

To compare this, I would say, imagine you spent 6 years learning about tires. You know every bloody detail about those tires... how to change them, how to fix them, what properties make a good tire, how to balance them..... Engineering and physics is learning about the entire CAR. How much does your "tire" knowledge perverse into cad programming a new engine manifold? Probably not a whole lot... Having tire knowledge wont hurt your chances at getting a job with a car company; and it may be a terrific tie breaker, but knowing what I know now, I would put more stock into getting a high GPA physics degree over hoping a navy nuclear operating job would carry you. If you have any aspirations for nuclear work, its probably a terrific thing to have. Id imagine you would be even more in demand, but thats a relative long commitment for something that may not align with your life long goals.

And finally, they have waivers for age up to 28 last time I knew (granted this was a couple years ago), so please ask your recruiter. Unless your GPA sucks, your college will probably only help you. And also ,if you are super serious about this and have a great GPA (3.6+) you may consider nupoc with your age and major of choice.

[tr]

I'd love to finish my bachelor's in physics and get a Ph.D./Master's in Nuclear Engineering later in life, however I'd also like to go to the NNP because I heard it's a great opportunity. I'd like to work hands-on fixing reactors, if that helps.

Neither Physicists or Engineers work hands-on fixing reactors.  Typically engineering determines or designs what the fix is, helps with issues that arise when the maintenance personnel are doing the fix, and then performs or supervises the post -maintenance testing.

[jowlman]

Seeing as you said that you are in Miami, I think that a better idea would be an internship at Turkey Point or Saint Lucie. Not that it would help you with your physics, but it would give you a glimpse into  what you are trying to enter. It could also let you talk to working RE's.