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Offline SloGlo

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NORM
« on: Oct 28, 2002, 10:25 »
anyone have any stories about norm beng present on a site that has caused health physics/radiation protection concerns?
quando omni flunkus moritati

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dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

Offline RDTroja

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Re: NORM
« Reply #1 on: Oct 28, 2002, 11:35 »
You mean the big guy on Cheers who was always at the corner of the bar? Cliff Claven's friend?
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

Offline SloGlo

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Re: NORM
« Reply #2 on: Oct 28, 2002, 11:41 »
i dunno why i even try anymore.... eye rilly, rilly don't... ;)
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

Offline idrum4food

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Re: NORM
« Reply #3 on: Oct 28, 2002, 01:12 »
Baton Rouge, LA for a company called Suntrak Svcs @ a BP oil refinery circa 1992. Seems we found 20k dpm/100cm2 on oil sludge. Had a lot of upset workers when we'd post a C-zone. "We been a doin this for 20 year. What's it a matterin now fer." Must not have been a big concern because we don't see many postings for HPs for oil refinery maint. outages.

Best two week job I ever had since it was during Mardi Gras. The only CONCERN we had was making it back to work the next day. Still have the sticker on my hard hat that says. "Warning... if you think N.O.R.M. is a guy who sits at Cheers and drinks beer all day, YOU ARE IN BIG TROUBLE !!! Suntrak Services, Inc. (713) 280-9982"

Offline RDTroja

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Re: NORM
« Reply #4 on: Oct 28, 2002, 01:22 »
Any anti-nuclear activist will tell you that radiation from a power plant is harmful and the naturally occurring stuff isn't...  ::)
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

spw

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Re: NORM
« Reply #5 on: Oct 28, 2002, 01:31 »
I worked for American Radiation Services, Inc. for seven years and our primary business was NORM.  We did surveys and project managment for sites contaminated with NORM at pipe yards, paper mills, refineries, oil field pumping units and tank batteries, gas wells, cooling towers and various other sites.  Typically the rad levels are very low, but I have had drums of scale to 50 mr and vessels over 100 mr.

Offline RDTroja

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Re: NORM
« Reply #6 on: Oct 28, 2002, 01:50 »
At Crystal River in the early 80s we were doing a lot of work in the 'Hot Shop' with the roll-up door open for heat relief (Central Florida in September). We had an AMS-2 set up at the door and a 'danglometer' to tell wind direction (in or out of the door). Several times a day the AMS-2 would alarm and we would shut the door, change out the filter paper, take the used filter to Chemistry, GeLi it, find out the problem was from the fossil plants next door (coal), and re-open the door until the next alarm. Had to have something to do all day...

I was always amazed that they could contaminate our air, but we had to shut our doors when they did.
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

DainJer

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Re: NORM
« Reply #7 on: Oct 28, 2002, 02:26 »
What does the acronym N.O.R.M stand for?

curious minds wanna know :)  i almost worked the citgo plant near joliet this year...might be interesting stuff to know.

radgal

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Re: NORM
« Reply #8 on: Oct 28, 2002, 02:48 »
Naturally Occuring Radioactive Material

retirednuke

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Re: NORM
« Reply #9 on: Oct 28, 2002, 03:04 »
How about 100,000 dpm smearable alpha and 10mr/hr general area at a chemical processing plant

wolf459

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Re: NORM
« Reply #10 on: Oct 28, 2002, 04:58 »
I was doing a routine RBA survey at a DOE site for a subcontractor one cold and icey morning and came up with a consistent 20k all over the place. It seem the ice melt is pretty high in potasium salt. OOPs :o

biloxi_blues

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Re: NORM
« Reply #11 on: Oct 28, 2002, 07:32 »
Hey I was there also 4 weeks in Belle Chase, La.  We didnt get per diem check he just gave us 700 dollars in cash.  My foot got a blister from putting it in my shoe walking around Mardi Gras.  Norm was the last thing I was worried about since they had all those chemicals around there.

atomicarcheologist

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Re: NORM
« Reply #12 on: Oct 29, 2002, 03:22 »
I have consistently had difficulty with field readings on acoustical ceiling tile, when surveying them out of an area prior to commencement of decon/remediation activities.  The smears never showed anything,  I have pulled samples and had them sent off for analysis with the results back from management that the lab said that it was not an isotopic concern.  I just had the same thing where I am now, and was mentioning it to my RSO who took a sample and had it run on the gammma spec on site.  The results are: K40 52%; Zr89 1%Tl208 15%; Pb212 6%; Bi214 12%; Pb 214 12%; & U235 2%.  It's too bad that we are on a U site.

radgal

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Re: NORM
« Reply #13 on: Oct 29, 2002, 10:02 »
If you know what you have before hand and know that it has N.O.R.M.  Take a baseline reading as it comes in and if its  statistically the same going out its no problem.  Unopened containers of cement is what I come across the most, that and powdered Zr.

Offline SloGlo

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Re: NORM
« Reply #14 on: Oct 30, 2002, 05:50 »
radgal... not to be belligerent... well, not this time anyway ;D... but what i was looking for was tales from the crypt about stuff that would not be suspect and how it got resolved.  


Atomic Archeologist... liked that one! yinze gots more?
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

ex-turbine_cowboy

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Re: NORM
« Reply #15 on: Oct 31, 2002, 02:17 »
Got fired from Trojan for not following the NORM - seems that a certain crew had woo'ed their tech's into allowing them to work their job with out facepumps.  I came in to cover and rectified the situation - needless to say I used terminology degrading to Blond Bimboos and was promptly canned for my unprofessional attitude!  Maybe thats why Trojan is no mo  

Chimera

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Re: NORM
« Reply #16 on: Nov 03, 2002, 04:08 »
Citgo Oil Refinery in Sulphur, LA this past February: Seems that a 90-Ci Ir-192 radiography source accidentally shorted out some welding cables during a radiography session.  The air eductors in the confined space did their job and blew the pieces out into the evening air.  Even though the plume was well mapped, we kept finding significant pieces in the walkways, roadways and on the pipes, vapor bodies and valves in all directions.  'Twas fun while it lasted.

Mike

atomicarcheologist

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Re: NORM
« Reply #17 on: Nov 05, 2002, 07:12 »
I had fun one night shift at a midwestern power plant east of cleveland.  A truck driver had backed his rig into the turbine building and made a remark that he hoped it would take awhile to get unloaded as he really wanted to get some shut eye and get caught up on his logbook.  Normally. that wasn't a problem, but this night everyone was very efficient and he was unloaded and ready to go in a couple of hours.  He was resigned to his fate of having to pull over outside the plant gate when I informed him that the HP survey had not yet been done, and since it was raining it might take awhile. ;)  The plant in question used a "banjo" probe for release survey, and scintillation probes see alot.  It took about sixmore hours of reported high contamination levels to supervision before someone thought to ask what the alpha to beta ratio was.  Of course it only took about 40 seconds for the HP supervisor to realize that he had been sold a radon bag of goods.  But that was enough for a grateful driver to get back on the road with a smile on his face.  And this tech still has a smile on his face. ;D

radgal

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Re: NORM
« Reply #18 on: Nov 06, 2002, 01:15 »
Radon is a hugh problem here in IL.  I always have my guys check themselfs on the monitor before entering CA to see how "hot" they are from home.

Offline SloGlo

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Re: NORM
« Reply #19 on: Nov 07, 2002, 01:24 »
radgal... do you let the crew use their incoming monitoring results to baseline themselves against their exit monitoring?
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

radgal

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Re: NORM
« Reply #20 on: Nov 07, 2002, 06:35 »
SloGlo,  Only if absolutely necessary.  If they can wait to go in the lab until they decay I'll ask them too.  But if they can't I will use their reading as a baseline.  I also ask where they were during the day some buildings are known radon problems and basement homes are also a big problem.(I asked one foreman not to go down in his before coming to work.)  Radon also skitches around and different probes light up.  First it will be on their right hand then their left foot, then their left hand.  At some commercial plants they use anti-static spray to dispell the radon from people, or use bounce sheets on hard hats and shoes.  Also looking at the alpha to beta ratio is another good indicator I use.

Offline SloGlo

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Re: NORM
« Reply #21 on: Nov 07, 2002, 06:49 »
i know the Rn skitching problem, it has to do with the chemical nature of the beast, i.e. that of being an extreme equilibrium seeker.  as such it is always attempting to go where no other radon is, unless of course, the electrical charge gets in the way, then it is drawn to the charge, which is why it is traveling....1) to seek equlibrium, and why it is sticking...2) electrical charge. quick fix for workers whose houses have build up in the basement is to have them leave a window cracked down there.  it doesn't take much for the gas to travel right out of the building seeking equilibrium with the environment!
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

radgal

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Re: NORM
« Reply #22 on: Nov 07, 2002, 07:08 »
SloGlo,
True enough.  However, we have some buildings that still have the problem even being ventilated.  Its been monitored and tracked and ventilated but still HELLO Rn. :o  Its my nemesis here.
Radgal

Offline SloGlo

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Re: NORM
« Reply #23 on: Nov 07, 2002, 09:23 »
radgal.. one of the problems with ventilating for Rn is that equilibrium thingie... the faster you move it out, the faster it comes in.  one of the big reasons why no one offers Rn sealant... one pinhole in a floor slab, and you might as well not seal at all.
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

Offline idrum4food

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Re: NORM
« Reply #24 on: Jan 24, 2003, 05:17 »
Some sand blasting media has NORM and does cause problems when used at Nuc facilities. Some treat it as rad waste when it's used and others gamma spec it before its used and then again after its used to prove it has no fission or activation products. This media is mostly used in non-RCA areas in the plant.

LMDeane

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Re: NORM
« Reply #25 on: Jan 24, 2003, 06:26 »
Oops!  Too quick on the trigger.  I thought this was about N.O.R.M.L.  Gotta get these bi-focs checked again.

LoneWolf

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Re: NORM
« Reply #26 on: Jan 24, 2003, 06:42 »
:)I remember while working at Turkey Point in South Florida, each time it rained, personnel would alarm the foot detectors. Could be NORM or residual activity from previous "ooooops did I spill that"? Which one do you think thay say it is?

Offline DecommMan

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Re: NORM
« Reply #27 on: Jan 27, 2003, 01:18 »
I heard some oil corp in MS got a multi-million hit with a big settlement over rad contam equipment in its equipment yard and overexposing non-rad workers.

:)
Decomm Man

Offline SloGlo

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Re: NORM
« Reply #28 on: Jan 27, 2003, 01:38 »
t tarbox... off hand for unspecified norm on building surfaces, i'd get some gas proportional probes 'n hook  them up to a meter that can be used for both scanning and static reading purposes.  i'd get one probe for alpha and one probe for beta/gamma.  if you're going for in the ground work, it'll be harder due to geometry and energies, but a na i probe and working knowledge of the baseline for gamma at specified depths will give yinze a indication of where the stuff is.
probes i would use would be ludlum 43-68 gas proportionals.  they've got a 100cm2 active surface area....makes it easy to do yer dpm/100cm2 reporting  for the na i i'd get a ludlum 44-2 or a 44-10.
meters i prefer are the ludlum 2221...a meter that you can really abuse, no beeps, no whistles, full manual. the eberline asp2e works well also, but isn't anywhere near as durable, but has more capabilities for the hitech kinda surveyor.

'diodes with rad paint'?  sounds like sumbuddy has their hands on an old building with radium sources/painted signs.  have fun dude, that is a fun isotope to play with.
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

Gonzo

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Re: NORM
« Reply #29 on: Jul 18, 2006, 06:12 »
You mean the big guy on Cheers who was always at the corner of the bar? Cliff Claven's friend?

I like this definition of NORM better...  much better..  and i'm sure if we wanted we could come up with all kinds of 'norm' stories...   

 


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