Welder, Diver, ELT, A&C Schools [Merged]

[Xhelix]

Just curious about:
-What it is
-How you become one
-If you can be bother a Welder and an ELT
-What they do
-Misc. information.

Thanks guys! 

[ex-SSN585]

From reading another post on these boards, apparently nuclear personnel are no longer being trained as welders.

I can't confirm whether or not that is true.  Welder used to be a follow on school for MMs.  Students who graduated could request one of the two: welder or ELT.

These welders were placed on boards to make emergency repairs to nuclear piping systems.  I believe in order to maintain their qualifications, they had to do a qualification weld each year monitored by repair facility personnel.  The weld was tested for imperfections such as cracks using a dye to highlight the imperfections.  It may have been X-rayed.  Nuclear grade welds have higher standards than most other piping welds and must be performed by specially qualified personnel.  However, the emergency welders are not qualified to perform every type of weld.  (My information gets fuzzy here since I was not a nuclear welder, but only wrote a few weld repair procedures.)  (Another term you might hear is NDT, Non Destructive Testing.  These are the tests performed on a piping system after a weld.  PT is penetrant test or dye penetrant test, which is the test for cracking that I described.  MT is a magnetic test.  I think the metal shavings will align themselves with a flaw.  RT, or radiographic test, is the X-ray test I mentioned.)

Ambitious people would always hope to receive training as both an ELT or a welder, but personally, I know of no cases in which this is approved.

For submarine personnel, you'd have a better chance of being a Navy diver and an ELT or a Navy diver and a welder than a welder and an ELT.

The welders normally were not involved in routine repairs, which are performed by repair facility or shipyard personnel.  The only weld jobs I remember were a repair to a throttle linkage when the ship's machinist (me) couldn't make the part in a timely manner, and the installation of some piece of equipment in the control room (non-nuclear related) when in a foreign port.
That was in 10 years of sub service.  However, each boat has its own personality and much of it depends on what the Commanding Officer allows or wants you to do.

So, now that I've brought the ship's machinist up, I should explain that.  The Engineering Department can decide to send any number of machinist's mates to Machine Tool Operator school.  This used to be (20 years ago) a two week course to run the ship's lathe.  MMs who reenlist STAR and request the Auxiliary Package course (again 20 years ago) used to receive the Machine Tool Operator course as part of the package.  (I think it included brazing, perhaps non-nuclear welding, diesel maintenance, and others.)

Short answer is, if there is a special school or program you want, run a special request chit.  It can't hurt.  However, finiish all your watchstation and warfare qualifications first and don't dream about the extra stuff until then.

[mattrev]

So, now that I've brought the ship's machinist up, I should explain that.  The Engineering Department can decide to send any number of machinist's mates to Machine Tool Operator school.  This used to be (20 years ago) a two week course to run the ship's lathe.  MMs who reenlist STAR and request the Auxiliary Package course (again 20 years ago) used to receive the Machine Tool Operator course as part of the package.  (I think it included brazing, perhaps non-nuclear welding, diesel maintenance, and others.)

Short answer is, if there is a special school or program you want, run a special request chit.  It can't hurt.  However, finiish all your watchstation and warfare qualifications first and don't dream about the extra stuff until then.

Our welder probably did more non-nuclear welding than nuclear welding (other than proficiency welds) while underway. Usually it was simple little stuff and normally he would pile it up until just before pulling into Pearl on a TCP patrol.     Guess he wanted to work on that tan a bit.

It was much easier to get those other schools on a boomer. I was able to attend training for QAI, Oxy/Acetylene and a host of others (even as an ELT) . Every off-crew the MLPO would send a bunch of us for something.

[Xhelix]

Same format as my other posts;
-What would both combinations do?
-How would one become one of the combinations?
-Suggestions or stories or comments or whatever welcome!

Thanks in advance, I'm trying to learn as much as I can about every avenue that opens itself to me and these forums have proven invaulable!

[Already Gone]

If you're going to be a welder or a diver, you'll be on a sub.  A nuclear welder, who is a diver, is NOT an underwater welder.  On my first boat, the welder, and three ELT's were divers.  Together with one Auxiliaryman and a Quartemaster, they made up the "diver division."
On a sub, the divers have basically two jobs.  Both are related to entering and leaving port.
1. Installing and removing the covers on the main ballast tank vents.
2. Act as a "lifeguard" for linehandlers while they are topside.

Unless your ship needs an emergency underwater repair, and no support can possibly be reached without it, you won't be doing any.
The same goes for welders.  In five years on board subs, I witnessed literally thousands of welds.  But, the ship's welder never did one of them.  (although he did once do some brazing on the cold water pipe to the Chiefs' head.)

[ex-SSN585]

These questions are getting hard to answer because part of the answer depends on your motivation for gaining any of these skills.

Although some (many) machinist's mates would consider ELT to be a collateral duty, the duties as a diver or a welder are even more so because they are rarely used.  Most ELTs use their training and specialized skills every day.  The jobs performed by ELTs are an important part of the periodic reactor safety examinations conducted on each nuclear propulsion plant and any boat or ship that treats ELT as a collateral duty and does not allow them to give the proper attention to their duties is likely to see the consequences show up during one of these examinations.

If nuclear MMs are still receiving welder training after prototype (again, I read on these boards that this training is no longer being given these days, a fact I cannot confirm or deny), I would guess that this is in smaller numbers than for ELTs.  In my experience, a submarine has only one or two of these welders.

I would say it is most difficult to become a diver.  First, the submarine must send the candidates to diver school. This is a significant period of time that a person is away from the ship, and one factor the ship will consider is the manning level of each division. 

Second, I believe that each ship is required to have at least two divers on board.  That means if there are only two divers, they are not going to get a break from going to sea and, depending on the operational status of the ship, may have a hard time getting leave.  While most ships might have three or more divers, they are selected from the entire crew, not just the nuclear trained community.

A ship is not likely to select an individual for training as a diver unless that person has completed all watchstation and warfare qualifications.

While Beer Court mentioned that in his experience he has seen one welder/diver and three ELT/divers, in my experience (3 submarines) I recall no ELT/divers, no welder/divers,  one or two MM/divers, one EM/diver, and two RO/divers.

Since diving is an additional, hazardous duty, the ship's divers receive extra pay.  However, if the ship has more than the alloted number of divers (I think the number is three), any additional Navy diver trained individuals do not get extra pay.

Please research the physical requirements to qualify for diver duty before including it on your wish list.  The ship has absolutely no incentive to request a waiver for individuals who do not meet these minimum requirements, even if such a waiver could be granted.

Again, it is the ship that decides when and if to accept volunteers for diver duty, based on a need to have a certain number of trained individuals.  As with most things, a request for diver training is usually handled by special request chit, and must be approved by the chain of command.  In my experience, if a ship decides they need an additional diver or divers, they first solicit volunteers.  Then there is a "try out" to see which individuals can pass the minimum physical performance requirements and the medical requirements.  Out of that pool, the ship selects one or two individuals to attend dive school.

[matthewmiller01]

One thing to add...   There are NO diver billets on Tridents.  There may be divers, but they were divers before they got to the Trident.  All diving duties are done by shipyard divers.

[Xhelix]

Good to know, being a diver does not sound like somthing I would like to do.

Thanks guys.

[ex-SSN585]

One more duty for divers:  Searching for explosive devices attached to the hull before leaving port.  Normally in home port or a support facility port, this is performed by the support activity divers..

[ODiesel]

The physical requirements to be able to go to dive school are pretty rough. You have to be able to complete the following evolution successfully:

Physical evolution	Time limit
Swim continuously, 500 yds utilizing sidestroke and/or breaststroke.	14 MIN
REST	10 MIN
Perform 42 push-ups in 2 min or less.	2 MIN
REST	2 MIN
Perform 50 sit-ups in 2 min or less.	2 MIN
REST	2 MIN
Perform 6 pull-ups, no time limit.	N/A
REST	10 MIN
Run 1.5 miles	12 MIN 45 SEC

                                                                                  
I am trying to go to dive school between my instructor tour at prototype and transferring to a sub. Anyone know if that is possible? No one at the command seems to have any idea if it is or isn't possible. Also, in a STAR re-enlistment contract I am guarenteed a "C" school. Anyone know if I can pick dive school as a "C" school??

Thanks in advance for the help!!

[ex-SSN585]

A search on the Web shows that MILPERSMAN 1510-020 lists the "C" schools available for STAR reenlistees.  I'd also look to see if there are any associated notes available.

Dive school is not one of the schools listed, but it never hurts to ask.  I would submit the request in writing and see what happens as the chit is approved or disapproved up the chain of command. 

[sefrick]

OK, I'm a bit late on this post, but I have 2 pennies to add regarding dive school although not actually a nuke related topic.


I was volen-TOLD for dive school by my Command on the Topeka. We had one qualified diver at the time and the division requires 4. 3 divers and a Dive Supervisor. The Dive sup only needs to complete Dive sup school, they never get wet.

Physically, the school is tough for all five weeks, however if you can meet the above mentioned requirements for the school, you're physically ready for the entire five weeks.

The curriculum is broken over 5 weeks. There are several points in the school where one can be weeded out. The first is obviously day one; failure to complete the initial fitness screening. Someone from your Command should test you prior to you request chit being approved to go to the school. The second point is the "drownproofing" stage on day one. Obviously you can not be a diver that panics in the water.

The first two weeks are PT,(faster paced navy PT and pool PT) the classroom stage and Bay swims.The bay swim is a 1000 yard swim with fins mask and a bouyancy compensator. It is a timed event, 22 min. It is done in the harbor. You have 3, sometimes 4 practice swims, then the tested swim which you must pass to continue.

Classroom consists of dive physics, brief dive medicine, water survival and SCUBA familiarization. As a nuke you will have no problem with the classroom stage.

Week three is all pool week. 4 days of hits. Not nearly as bad as it sounds or some make it out to be. If you can stay levelheaded underwater without air for 40 - 60 sec and square your gear away, and don't mind being a little cold, you will be fine in pool week.

The last two weeks is pierside dives, open ocean dives and a night dive. The last two weeks were actually very enjoyable. You get certified to 130 feet. It is very important to contact your school prior to classing up and get your butt into a chamber to make sure that you can equalize to 130 feet. Some people are physically unable. If you class up and make it to through week 3 and find out that you cannot equalize, you just wasted 3 weeks of your Commands time.

Aside from being the most fun Navy school that I went to, I am proud to wear the pin. For the amout of actual WORK that you do as a diver, the extra $150/month is nice. If you have any questions regarding this school, PM me.

[ODiesel]

Thanks for that information. That is really helpful to me. Can you please describe "drownproofing"?

[sefrick]

Drownproofing is pretty easy. First you do a basic survival float. Then they have you do a survival float with you hands behind your back. You hands are restrained by string, but they are not tied so you CAN, (but MAY not) use them. Then you do the same thing with your feet restrained.

After that they have you swim several laps in the pool with your face in the water while breathing through a snorkel. This is to teach you how to mouth breath. When you swim with a snorkel alone, with no mask it's very easy to take in ALOT of water through your nose. When you swim past an instructor, they will push you under the water and you have have to come back up, clear your snokel and carry on with out taking your face out of the water.

The last portion of drownproofing is called mask and snorkel. Your mask and snorkel are placed at the bottom of the pool, 12 feet. You retrieve your mask and snorkel, place on your mask, clear your mask and come to the surface. With out taking your face out of the water you are then to clear your snorkel and breath with out taking your face out of the water.

Mask and snorkel is not difficult, but I know some people who did not continue dive school because they did not succeed in that portion of drownproofing. It's a good thing to practice.

Some schools also work on your breath hold on the first day. This is not to see how long you can hold your breath, but to see if you panic when the need to hold your breath arises. "Slow is smooth and smooth is Fast" Just take it nice and easy while you are under and you've got it.

[Jorderon]

Being a Nuke welder, I usually weld together broken chairs from radio, perhaps sonar.. some of those guys do alot of sitting down, and it can get a little rough I suppose.   The only thing I actually have to weld is a qual piece every 6 months during Off Crew or Refit Assistance periods, keep in mind im a part time submariner, maybe a trident fag, or whatever the racial slur is for us now

Keep in mind as a nuke welder you really are only an emergency welder.  More like, melt it back together so we can float home in one piece if the "stuff" hits the fan.  Once you get in port the "real" shop welders will cut it out and redo it, if it ever happens.  At the very least they will inspect the weld to make sure its good.  I have heard of one certified Master Welder who was a Nuke MM, went to welding school, and cross rated to HT so he could do actual welds and they wouldn't have to be redone, however thats a pretty rare occourance, and it might just be another Navy myth.

How to get Welder... Well in Prototype training you will be given a form that asks you to say if you want to become an ELT or Welder, or a Staff Pickup.  Just say what you want to be, and try not to piss anyone off in the pipeline and you will probably get what you want.  Top half GPA in NPS and NPTU helps alot, althought its not a requirement.  It is possible to get these "C" schools after the pipeline however.  No matter what people tell you you can get ANY school you want if you request it and want it bad enough, however the actual chances of that depend on manning, and the Navy's Needs which always dominate.  Also if you are a welder, you are guaranteed submarines, as you fill a billet required for a submarine.

The reality of it is:  Its one more notch on the belt when/if you get out, you could walk into almost any welding shop and its an "in" to the field for sure, but then again, being a Nuke is a huge start to anything you want do to on the outside.  Inside the Navy however it turns out to be just another collateral duty, either being the Lead Welder or just one of the welders. 

I belive I have answered your question, I hope it was helpfull.

go big red.

[ODiesel]

It's true that most nukes become either ELTs or Welders at the end of their training pipeline. Another way to become one or the other is to STAR reenlist. By STAR reenlisting you are guarenteed a C-School.  Although I have seen SPU (Staff Pickup) ELTs opt to go to weld school for their C-School. That is not as common as a SPU MM opting to go to ELT school after finishing his tour at prototype. For EMs and ETs, weld school isnt desirable, but I think it is still an option. ELT school, however, is only for MMs. As an EM, I would rather go to Oxygen Generator Tech, Breaker Repair or "Sound" school. Something that would actually relate to what I do as an electrician.

Hope this helps...

[Xhelix]

I'm sure I comprehend this, but the letter before the word school indicates not how prestigeous it is (A being more so then C) but instead what level it is:
A -> B? (I've never seen mention of a "B" School...) -> C

Is my understanding correct or flawed?  I bring this up because of all the recent conversation about STAR re-enlistment and (more importantly) lack of personal knowledge.  As usual, thanks in advance guys!

[Xhelix]

Hah, immediatly after I posted this I found a document that gives an explanation to my question (although be it in, well, legel document form so its not as easy to read as I'd like) here's the link:


http://buperscd.technology.navy.mil/bup_updt/upd_CD/BUPERS/MILPERS/Articles/1510-030.PDF


Page four (4) of that answers my question and sorry I dont know how to make it clickable (unless it is, in which case I did nothing) and any comments are still welcome!

[shadowhunter]

Is there any possibility of an ET being trained as a Welder or ELT? I'm interested in either, and I'd like to know if that possibility is available.

[taterhead]

Shadowhunter.

Short answer:   No.

[hamsamich]

I was an ELT and a Diver aboard the USS Norfolk from 89 to 93.  The only reason they let me go to dive school was because I was one of the few interested (3 of us), and then I was the only one to pass the dive test.  They made me use my "C" school "promise" from my re-enlistment.  I don't know if it was a C school or not, but that was one of the few schools I got to go to.  I don't think I ever really got to go to a "C" school technically, but I was thru fighting for what I thought I deserved and ready to get out of the Nav. Anyway, dive school maybe the most challenging thing I've ever done.  When I went to a tender to finish out my time after the sub, they made me give up my diver NEC, although there was some talk about me being allowed to dive with the tender (USS Rank Cable) divers to maintain my dive quals.  I was trying to hang out up at the dive locker and maybe PT with them and learn some real salvage/maintenance diving stuff, but R-5 (the nuclear tender div) didn't really want to do this so instead of continue to fight, I just lost interest.  "C" school promises have some value, but most likely it will get used up on something the NAV wants you to do anyway, so you don't really get anything unless you get lucky.  I was sent to RCM school and Dive school, but that was pretty much what would have happened anyway.  I wanted to go to a long school like air-conditioning main. school, or some other mechanic-type school, but the sub would never let me go.  Don't re-enlist for a C-School.  Do it for the cash or because you like the Nav, or some other gaurantee like a duty station.  Vague promises like "we will send you to a C-school eventually" don't mean much in the Nav.  I'm glad I was in the Navy, but I'm very glad to be out now.  If I had it to do over again I would think about re-enlisting for a duty station and money, not a C school.