Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!

[JnyMac]

RD,

Remember the Organizational effectiveness we as Techs had about 15 years ago trying to get a union.  I have to agree with you.  Today I think the chances of getting everyone to unite at the same time, for the same thing, and the same union is an impossibilty.

[alphadude]

As usual, these outages will take place, shortage or not. This is not the first time this has happened. When it happened before we just implemented tighter controls, more preplanning and forced longer hours from the contractors and house techs. Besides what is next year? famine?  This is a blue moon year! Now if this continues for a few years... then leverage for the techs will become a reality!!!!  The creation of jrs will only serve to keep the wages low and really only helps the profits of the contractor companys.

[JnyMac]

I agree Alpha.  I remember in 1989 when Palo Verde had over 800 contract RP techs onsite ( 3 different companies).  The fact is today they ask for help from every department that has any spare bodies.  They bring them in as Jrs. and with enough outages they qualify as senoirs.  Now I only need 20 Bartlett Sr. Hps instead of 40.

[RDTroja]

I agree Alpha.  I remember in 1989 when Palo Verde had over 800 contract RP techs onsite ( 3 different companies).

Please tell me that is a misprint and you meant 80... please?

[JnyMac]

No

Unit 3 down for outage 250 for 11 months,  Unit one down for 18 months about 450 and unit 2 staffing about 100 until all 3 units down in 1990 due to NRC.  Put it this way.  Pump bays 3 in 3 out.  1st 3 in 16 Srs. and 4 Jrs.  2nd 3 in 16 Srs. 4 Jrs.  Got my 3.1 years in 3.1 years thanks to them.

[RDTroja]

Yikes!

I remember about 120 at peach Bottom in the late 70s... but 800? Sounds like shielding to me.

[JnyMac]

Just after the units came online.  Still in construction budget mode.

[RRhoads]

this topic got way off....but yeah....PV in 89'...got there in Feb all units up...<2 months later...all units down.
you coundn't spit w/o hitting a contractor!

[OlGraybeard]

This is a long post, sorry, but do not hpost normally, but felt I needed to weigh in

A lot of discussion here I have heard before.  Seems nothing changes in this industry from that stand point.

I have seen this from many sides of the fence; as a contractor, as a Site Coordinator, as a house HP, as a house supervisor.

RDTroja has it right.

Let me jump in with both feet.

Training of new people:  There have been a number of attempts at this.  The best was actually the IRM School. Hate to say anything good with IRM in it but, well, anyway, moving on. Seems everyone feels the utilities must solve this problem.  They can be part of the solution, but they are not the solution. Company's that provide training to personnel for job skills provide it for their permanent employee, not for temporary help that will work elsewhere. The utilities are in business to make money, not paying you.  You need to remember that.

Can they have people working as juniors?  You bet.  And they do.  Just what they are allowed to do depends on the history of the plant.  If they have been burned in the past due to action of a junior, I bet the scope of allowed activities is strictly limited. This goes in cycles.  Time heals all till next time.

Can technicians get training themselves?  You bet. I have seen many people complain about the quality of the field tech.  This has always been the situation.  There are technicians and than there are Technicians. The individuals that have coasted along and learned what they need to do to be HP's are exactly that. They learned what they have seen, right or wrong and believe it is the gospel. I am sure you have seen the ones I mean and they can not be made to realize they do not know anything.

Than, there are Technicians that have taken online courses, college classes, studied various training material and sought to improve their knowledge and understanding of the field or have been in a training program from somewhere that provided the technical background. They work to apply this in the job they do.

People who are sometime not much more than trained monkeys (monkey see monkey do) believe they are under paid.  Some people in the field are definitely underpaid. How do you fix the disparity?  I have no idea.  It has been debated for as long as I have been involved with nuclear power. No one answer works for everyone.

If you want to be paid for being technicians, than be technicians (and there are a lot of theses out there). The road warrior has always been paid an hourly rate lower than house rate. House tech base pay here is about 59K, (we are in the south).  Contractors get about 20 to 23 an hour here, per-diem of about 100 or more. Do the math; seniors are not paid much less than the house personnel.

Eric is right, utilities do not work together to set rates.  We look at the industry market and seek to get as low as we can for our contracts, period! We are a business. If we can not get fully staffed for the outage, than we operate with what we get.  Then management looks at last outage and says, well, you got by with this many people last outage, so that is all you can hire this outage.

I for one would like to see more training for juniors and continuing training for seniors. At the site I am currently at, senior contract personnel do attend the same training plant personnel attend if they are long term contractors (> 6 months at site). This has not happened since I started working her till now.

If you do not know this yet, let me be the first, the utilities will not be the source of this training of new technicians.  You can keep pushing, but it won't happen that way. Sorry, just a reality. Maybe an industry supported school tied to INPO.  I think you would have better luck with that idea.

A little long and hopefully, I have not offended anyone but this is the facts as I have observed them with 30 plus years in the industry. Have a nice day

[Roll Tide]

OK! OK! I think I got it. Listen and listen good maybe this would solve the problem. Why should we work for less then a house tech? Wy not hold out till we make even wages no matter were we are and Gov. allowable diem for the area were in?

I am not willing to take that pay cut! I do not meet IRS criteria for per diem, and I make more per hour than the house techs hired in the last 3 years. No thanks.

[RRhoads]

OlGraybeard ...
You do have some valid points.
Not much training for JR Techs if at all & they really aren't allowed to do much if anything.
But....
I may fit into the category of "just" a technician w/ no "formal" training...ya know the "monkey" kind...although i do not really bitch about the wage i make....i have a trade & make pretty descent money doing it & have been for 13 years now..


Which category do you fit in???

(Personal attacks deleted - RT)

[SloGlo]

when the squeeze is on the tight get tighter..... when everybuddy is calling, then the contractor kin pick the plant, the wage, the diem, even the recruiter he wants to talk turkey with.  it's the mostest beautiful season of them all.

[OlGraybeard]

RRhoads, I am a combination of the two.  I have had some formal training I pursued and have done alot of self study.

I have nothing against the folks that do not pursue a better knowledge and become a true technician.  Even many of those gather a good backgorund just by working and questioning in the work process. Most plants I have been at, the utility and the Contract Supervisors work out where people work best.  Some are better in some areas and not others.  Just a fact of life no mater what job you work and the trade you work at.


Have a fine day all

[RRhoads]

a "true technician"??
give me break!
I am all for the pursuit of more knowledge in the trade, but that statement comes off as Elitist.
I've seen quite a few "True Technicians" according to your definition who are not trusted for job coverage.
I think you might be wise to look around this web site & get a little knowledge of your own before you make that kind of statement.There are many here who got their start as deconners. Myself being one.
I think we're pretty off topic.

[Nuclear NASCAR]

I think we're pretty off topic.

I agree.  Please take note of the forum rules which can be found here:

http://www.nukeworker.com/policy/forum_rules.shtml   

#4 in particular. 

4. Please learn to be respectful, tolerate and support each other. NukeWorker.com's goal is to help others, not see how many people we can annoy. Do not initiate arguments or tension. This will only cause the triggering of other members and make this site less professional.

[OlGraybeard]

RRhoads,

I have known some excellent HP Tech's that started out as Decon techs. I have helped a number of Decon techs that wanted to move on to becoming HP's.

Please do not miss understand me.  When I refer to the people that do not have adequate skills, I refer to the people that are not willing to learn.  They do not have to.  They know it all.  They just do not have a clue. And I can tell you that about 10 to 15 percent of the techs fit this profile. There are techs that can never be much more than glorified Control Point Techs. This is not a slam against them. This is all they want.  Good for them.  I for one feel technicians should have pay that rewards the people that do all of the work. Not the people that coast.

RRhoads said:
I am all for the pursuit of more knowledge in the trade, but that statement comes off as Elitist

As for an elitist, no I am not, (at least I do not think of myself as one, could be wrong, have been before).  Professional and proud of what I do, yes.

I am also glad you seek knowledge.  There are a number of people in this field that do not. However, they expect the same courtesy as the people that do go out and learn, (not just book knowledge by the way, there is a lot of knowledge that is field knowledge).

[Roll Tide]

It would be nice if there were standards for continuing education for contract techs. It would be GREAT if NRRPT would substitute for more mundane training for a year, then CHP Part A in lieu of another year........

Yeah, I know I am dreaming. But it would be nice if you could do something more worthwhile INSTEAD of something they are going to stick you in for bean-counting requirements.

Perhaps when the supply of Techs dwindles just a little more, the utilities will try to get creative in a positive manner!

[SloGlo]

Perhaps when the supply of Techs dwindles just a little more, the utilities will try to get creative in a positive manner!

not as long as engineering and instrumentation advances are a.m.am.a.  as mundane as management allows.

[870xprs]

Here's my personal distortion of reality.  My friends, as far as hiring contractors at nuclear power plants, plant management holds all the cards.  And these days contractors are at the very bottom of the food chain.  We are the absolute lowest priority in the overall scheme of things.  Contractors will never have a ghost of a chance at getting significantly increased wages, even by threatening to go union.  For the time being, all we as HPs can hope for is to keep plugging along and take the jobs as they come up.  Power companies sponsor training for contractors? . . . it ain't gonna happen.  Why?  Because as someone else pointed out above, the outage work somehow keeps getting done and those output breakers get closed.  That's all the executives and managers care about.  Outages don't have to get a 4.0 score or even a 3.0 to be called a success as long as executives and managers get to put the final spin on the outcome.  You and I get to deal with all the crap that goes on, and we get the blame if something doesn't go according to plan even if we did our best.  Your outage didn't go according to plan? . . . who cares?  Procedures get revised and condition reports get written, and eventually forgotten.  People make mistakes.  Lessons get relearned over and over again.  But that's beside the point, which is that managers and VPs keep getting their bonuses no matter what happens.  If something big enough goes wrong, they just get moved to another location.  When was the last time you heard of a manager or VP getting FIRED for screwing something up?  No, it ain't fair, but that's the way it is.  I guess it's because there still isn't enough competition among nuclear power companies.  Managers and executives aren't held accountable, and that's a fact.  They get to pass the crap on to someone else.  Somehow the work keeps getting done, and you and I keep coming back for more because this is the work we know.  THis is what we do.

It's the VP's job to squeeze every last dime of profit out of a nuclear power plant.  But they really have the easy job.  All they really have to do is tell each department manager that their budget is x-amount less than last year's.  Oh yeah, and sit in endless meetings pretending to offer sage advice on a multitude of complex issues that us poor HPs will never understand.  Sir, can we please buy some more HP instruments because our current ones are 20 years old?  Oh, yes sir, I forgot this is the year that Operations gets the control room make-over.  You're very proud of that, aren't you sir?  But sir the new instruments were included in this year's budget, remember?  Oh, I see . . . our budget just got cut.  Maybe next year.  Sigh . . . . thank you, sir. 

As a reward for not letting things go to hell in a handbasket, we HPs get to figure out how to jump through even more hoops next outage, with fewer resources, and pray that nothing goes wrong and no one does anything stupid.  Hey, let's try using admin and clerical personnel as control point monitors.  It's worth a shot, we got no one else left to staff those jobs.  Maybe we could eventually train them to release stuff from the RCA!  They already told us we aint' getting any more contract HPs, and we can't even get the few we requested.

Do you suppose that when the VPs, directors and managers go home at night they offer up a few prayers that somehow the plants keep running?  Or that they can come up with a few creative answers to problems?  Or that maybe they could learn to cut someone some slack every now and then?  Nah, probably not.  Gotta plan that trip to the Bahamas.  And where to invest that bonus check.

OK.  I'm done now.  Time to take my meds.

[Atomic_Punk]

870xprs, you very wise person.