San Onofre (SONGS)

[MeterSwangin]

Minimum wage...?  Over $30/hr, full bennies, beaucoup OT.  Duuuuuuude.

[HydroDave63]

$30/hour is minimum wage in SD and Orange counties.

Will $30/hour get me a 650 sq.ft. place just a short walk to either a pawn shop, tattoo parlor, payday loan shack AND the beach, all within a short commute to SONGS?!¿ I can live a reality-show lifestyle AND get a license...where do I sign up?  

[MeterSwangin]

Good news, Amigo:  Republinomics has so depressed the economy that $30/hr can feed and house the average Nuke.  Thank you George W.

[Brett LaVigne]

$30/hr x 40hr/wk = $1200

Less taxes, union dues, 401K contributions, etc. that leaves you with about $780.  Subtract housing and fuel costs so you can commute from Temecula where you may be able to rent an apartment in a gang banger neighborhood for $1200/month and you are left with about $380/wk.  Now pay for food, car insurance etc, and you are in the hole.

This sounds like my last outage at SONGS. 7 weeks and left in the red, thank goodness the next stop was halfway up the coast where I made the same amount in 3 weeks.

$1200/month is a jammin deal if you can take the commute turning it into a 15 hour day. I chose to stay in a 550 sq ft apartment in San Clemente for a smokin' good deal of $2000/month.

Living in SO CAL and working at SONGS is literally a difference of less than $300/week from staying home and collecting unemployment for me. Wish I had done the math on that before I did the outage.

Considering the math and the knowledge of how poorly they run their outages (at least from my experience on the RP side of things), I don't know why anyone would pick 10 weeks at this plant if a 6 week outage is available anywhere else for even somewhat less pay. Management at this plant still believes that we can pay our bills with sunshine. The statement "but we have the sun and the beach" is an old one and some used to be ok with a little less $ to be at SONGS, but that was a time when it was still profitable to work there even with the higher cost of living. Now it's all different. The cost of living in that area has outrun any wage/perdiem increases by a larger margin than me trying to race Lance Armstrong, and I'm riding a tricycle (like the type of bike would make any difference).

While at Diablo I talked to a couple of SONGS folks that were there benchmarking (like anyone is going to listen to suggestions that come from another plant). We talked about the SONGS sgr staffing and I explained that I would not be there (as many others did as well). When we talked about the pay, they actually said it..."but we have the sunshine". I like both of these guys, and like them no less for saying that because they have been stuck in the ignorant thinking bubble for a long time, it wasn't their fault. But on the other hand, I found it to be an incredibly offensive statement. It demonstrated how far removed the staff there is from the rest of the world. They still think that they are at the top of the game in spite of the INPO decline over the past years and building one of the worst reputations in the industry amongst the RP types. It's weired how arguably the best shares the same water and coast with arguably the worst. You'd think that one might take lessons from the other, at least I wish they would.

[xobxdoc]

I bet you had a good time though. My best memories as an HP were at SONGS in the 80's. I left with enough money to get to my next job each time I worked there. Looking back it probably wasn't the smartest thing financially, but I had a pretty good time.

[go.nukes]

I worked there a couple of years ago and barely broke even. It was fun seeing the area on my time off but not enough so that I'd go back unless the rates increase. I was treated well by the house techs which is more than I can say for our Assistant Site Coordinator. Same goes for the Site Coordinator. Does that loser even come inside the gate.

[Brett LaVigne]

I bet you had a good time though. My best memories as an HP were at SONGS in the 80's. I left with enough money to get to my next job each time I worked there. Looking back it probably wasn't the smartest thing financially, but I had a pretty good time.

I had a pretty good time from 94 - 97, and could actually pay the rent. I was young, single, no kids, no mortgage in Michigan (just a little rent). It was much much cheaper to rent a place in San Clemente.

2006 and 2007 were not such a good time. For the first time in my RP career, I left a site after working a full outage with less money than I had when I got there. No one at work was having any fun due to being streched too thin and having a total lack of 1st line leadership (with the occasional exception of Mack filling in for a day off).

I went back after 10 years thinking I was going to re-kindle my love for the plant and area. It was no fun to work and there were so many people in the area that sometimes I had to park 3 blocks from where I lived (that's what $2000/month will get you). I learned that the SONGS party has been over for quite some time IMO. I get along fine with the management there, including the Bartlett management. I actually like many of them on a personal level, but they are living in the past.

[MeterSwangin]

The usual road ho anthem:  the low payer sucks, high payer rocks, and nobody at the House knows or does doodah.

Come on.  Get real.

SONGS is paying 27/140....you bust $32 on night with NRRPT.  Free trailer park with hookups, laundry, gym.  5x12, paid lunch.  Bartlett supes....heard maybe marty, gooch, wood, mason, hatch.

Diablo was obscene bux, although I got sick, too much dose, crappy radworker practices, SGT amok.  Some turds in charge.

Be fair...

[MeterSwangin]

I got bros trying to get it to SONGS for the SGR...can't.  Fully staffed.

Road hos love to beat down the plants, but in the end vote with their feet. 

[Brett LaVigne]

The usual road ho anthem:  the low payer sucks, high payer rocks, and nobody at the House knows or does doodah.

Come on.  Get real.

SONGS is paying 27/140....you bust $32 on night with NRRPT.  Free trailer park with hookups, laundry, gym.  5x12, paid lunch.  Bartlett supes....heard maybe marty, gooch, wood, mason, hatch.

Diablo was obscene bux, although I got sick, too much dose, crappy radworker practices, SGT amok.  Some turds in charge.

Be fair...

Here is fair. $35/hour, Fed. Per-diem and getting paid 12 for 12. Nothing less would be fair for southern California. SONGS still pays less than several plants and when you consider the cost of living there, $27/$140 is the equivalent of minimum wage for a road tech. Why are you trying to continue to sell us a lemon if the outage is all staffed up? Just kick back, enjoy your outage and come back to rub our noses in it when you pull off the best SGR in industry history. In the meantime, I'll be working waaaaay up north of you at entry level house RP wages and fed. per-diem bringing home more than $500/week more on 40's than the techs working SONGS on 60's, or I mean 57.5's.

Diablo doesn't rock just because of the pay, they rock because they get the pick of the litter due to paying a top road wage. Your co-workers can be counted on to be knowledgeable and willing to do that little extra that ensures success. The leadership in the field is better than most but more importantly, they trust us to take care of business and stay out of our way for the most part. The plant is low dose and very clean. Add all that up with the fact that they pay nearly double what SONGS does...what is there to argue about? And the little PG&E plant even more north, even more better.

"Diablo was obscene bux, although I got sick, too much dose, crappy radworker practices, SGT amok.  Some turds in charge."

Wow! Too much dose? The last time I was at SONGS, on my last day I worked in the pump bays and did the underwater AMP100/200 survey of the lower cavity. I picked up over 50 millirem and was pushed through the bodycounter by noon. At least I got like 1 hour of pay to bodycount, which was good since it took longer than that to get out of the plant. Dose, crappy radworker practices and some turds in charge!? Sounds like SONGS for twice the money and better treatment, count me in! Every plant I have worked has challenges, including Diablo. Facing these challenges when you are treated properly by the house makes it far less frustrating! It also makes people want to face and resolve these challenges to make it an even better place to work. At a plant where they just abuse you, who really cares if it gets better for the future? Even if it turns into a great place to work, you'll still starve to be there.

[Brett LaVigne]

Brett - you nailed it!  MS does not get it or is simply being argumentative.  The time has come for sensible folks to stop taking the bait.

MS is a SONGS guy trying to sell the idea that it is still sunny in San Clemente and SONGS is THE place to work. MS has been there a long time and isn't in touch with the rest of the industry. I am pretty sure that I know who MS is, at least I'm down to 2 or 3 choices. If he is who I am thinking, I happen to like this guy. He's just a bit uninformed.

On the other hand. I think it's great that MS is promoting his plant, that's what he should be doing. He just needs to be better informed about the rest of the industry and realize that the deal he is promoting is not a good deal. He should promote it as a work in progress.

It should go something like this...

Hey guys, we are having a SGR at SONGS this fall. I know we have had a long history of low pay for travel techs but there is good news. We have upped the pay and perdiem to better align ourselves with the rest of the industry and make it a bit easier to afford a decent place to stay. I know that the money is still not exactally where it should be, but it's a good first step and I am sure that the future looks bright. We have also made some changes to our management structure and that will help our outages going forward. Take this opportunity to work our SGR and become a frequent returnee for our ride back up to the top of the industry.

I don't know if all of that is true, but at least it seems honest. You know right from the start that I am trying to sell the idea of working at SONGS and I freely admit that it ain't perfect yet. The way MS promotes the plant feels insulting, like we are not smart enough to know better. I am sure it is unintentional, but knock it off just the same.

[fueldryer]

MS is a SONGS guy trying to sell the idea that it is still sunny in San Clemente and SONGS is THE place to work. MS has been there a long time and isn't in touch with the rest of the industry. I am pretty sure that I know who MS is, at least I'm down to 2 or 3 choices. If he is who I am thinking, I happen to like this guy. He's just a bit uninformed.

On the other hand. I think it's great that MS is promoting his plant, that's what he should be doing. He just needs to be better informed about the rest of the industry and realize that the deal he is promoting is not a good deal. He should promote it as a work in progress.

It should go something like this...

Hey guys, we are having a SGR at SONGS this fall. I know we have had a long history of low pay for travel techs but there is good news. We have upped the pay and perdiem to better align ourselves with the rest of the industry and make it a bit easier to afford a decent place to stay. I know that the money is still not exactally where it should be, but it's a good first step and I am sure that the future looks bright. We have also made some changes to our management structure and that will help our outages going forward. Take this opportunity to work our SGR and become a frequent returnee for our ride back up to the top of the industry.

I don't know if all of that is true, but at least it seems honest. You know right from the start that I am trying to sell the idea of working at SONGS and I freely admit that it ain't perfect yet. The way MS promotes the plant feels insulting, like we are not smart enough to know better. I am sure it is unintentional, but knock it off just the same.

You guys are boring at best.If you don't like SONGS, DON't GO! Geez quit your belly aching and go somewhere else.I move fuel there and like the people, the area and the money I make is great.I'd rather work with a tech that doesn't whine...

[Longtime Nuke]

Gets a little old reading about a plant from guys who haven't been there in years.

Diablo is NOT a low source-term plant, Brett.  Their SGRs both ran well over 200 Person-REM.  PVNGS is low source term...all three SGRs ran well under 100 PR each.

You obviously have not been to SONGS in many years, and should chill accordingly.  Good people, nice area, rapidly improving plant.  Their SGR, although much longer than any of Diablo's, is bid at nearly half the dose. 

I agree with the last posters.  Have fun on this list debating places and issues.  But ldump the nasty personal attacks and digs at plants you don't know.

[fueldryer]

I think Brett has been at SONGS fairly recently, I know I have.  It is by raising the issues of substandard PD & wages (along with many other issues) that you and others may reap the benefits of a "rapidly improving plant" although INPO, road and house employees, the public, and the NRC may disagree with that.

If you don't like the plant,pay scale,P.D.,the people or the area,by all means do go there.Why be miserable and piss and moan thus making the other people that have to work with you miserable too.I know that I don't want to work with people like that.I enjoy going to SONGs and enjoy working with the tech's that cover me.I never heard any of them bitching about the money they make.And I don't think by you or any other tech complaining is gonna change anything......except maybe the crew list's of who's going there.

[Brett LaVigne]

Gets a little old reading about a plant from guys who haven't been there in years.

Diablo is NOT a low source-term plant, Brett.  Their SGRs both ran well over 200 Person-REM.  PVNGS is low source term...all three SGRs ran well under 100 PR each.

You obviously have not been to SONGS in many years, and should chill accordingly.  Good people, nice area, rapidly improving plant.  Their SGR, although much longer than any of Diablo's, is bid at nearly half the dose. 

I agree with the last posters.  Have fun on this list debating places and issues.  But ldump the nasty personal attacks and digs at plants you don't know.

Been to SONGS twice in the last couple of years FYI and many times through the 90's. Diablo for both SGR's and a refuel in the past couple of years. Still getting a little old? I don't argue about things I know nothing of.

I argue against SONGS because someone is on here trying to sell it as a good deal for RP types and it is not. As far as Diablo goes, the average dose rates I/S bio on 91' (loops) is like 8 - 10 mr/hr and you could wear street clothes almost anywhere and not get contaminated. You can compare it to Palo Verde and call it hot if you like, but many plants would look hot compared to Palo (been there recently as well by the way) If you think Diablo is not a low source term plant then I am thinking that you haven't been there in a while. It is one of the cleanest plants I have worked in a while. The SGR's are not a good outage to look at for comparison, we (RP) were basically uninvolved with SGT during the SGR part of the outage. They took over and we stayed out of the way. So what you end up with is dozens of SGT workers standing around all shift soaking up dose and no way to curtail it by sending uninvolved people out. I could also compare it to a plant like Cooper where we did a 3 week refuel outage and spent nearly 50 man-rem more than Diablo's SGR outage that took 4 times as long. It's all in your comparisons, I can paint what ever picture you like if I pick the right plant to make the comparison. SONGS by the way, is near the bottom of the list where dose v.s. outage scope is concerned. Far worse than Diablo and the management talked about this frequently last time I was there (sign of a plant that wants to improve by the way).

If you would have paid attention to my last post I offered a different approach to selling the idea that SONGS was improving, and it is improving. If you have followed Meterswangins posts on this thread and the NPUA thread, you would realize that he is trying to say that we get what we deserve and shouldn't complain. He is a management type at SONGS trying to get his outage staffed by painting a fairytail that does not exist. I feel that it is my fellow nukeworker DUTY to let my fellow techs know that what he is selling is a misrepresentation of the facts.

You move fuel...most of what has been talked about here is related to RP's, at least the most recent activity. If you make a good living there and like it, good for you. Don't assume that because you have it good there, everyone must have it good there. It is time to call these utilities out for what they really are. SONGS has a long tradtion of underpaying and mistreating travel RP techs and I will talk about it as much as I can when someone gets on a public forum like this one and trys to sell something different. I owe it to my co-workers.

[Brett LaVigne]

If you don't like the plant,pay scale,P.D.,the people or the area,by all means do go there.Why be miserable and piss and moan thus making the other people that have to work with you miserable too.I know that I don't want to work with people like that.I enjoy going to SONGs and enjoy working with the tech's that cover me.I never heard any of them bitching about the money they make.And I don't think by you or any other tech complaining is gonna change anything......except maybe the crew list's of who's going there.

By the way, once I accept a job, most all the bitching stops. If you have ever worked with me at SONGS or other, you would know that I don't mope around work bitching about the pay and treatment. Even at the plants that I don't like to work, I have a very good time at work. I love what I do and you would find me to be a positive person.

I have decided not to work at SONGS anymore until they get us taken care of. If we never say anything, this plant would be happy to pay 1992 wages. Talking about it with co-workers does have an impact. Ask any RP on the road what they think of SONGS even if they haven't been there and you will probably hear alot of the same as on here. That reputation keeps good workers from going there and that has a huge impact on the staffing. It also encourages (or forces) a positive change. Think what you like, but I believe that we must be relentless to force change. Otherwise, it all stays the same or gets worse. For those of us who liked working SONGS in the past, this is unacceptable.

[Chimera]

I have enjoyed every outage I've done at SONGS from 1982 to 2006.  The pay and perdiem have been acceptable (or I wouldn't have gone in the first place) and the house people are great to work with.  That area of California is one of my favorites - perhaps because I used to live there.  My only complaint is that it is in California.  Unitl California straightens out their political and taxation situation, I have no desire to go back there.

[Longtime Nuke]

Apparently opinions are unwelcome here, judging from Hostile Brett's posts.

But screw that, I have several:

SONGS and Diablo both rock.  I prefer PVNGS for many reasons, but enjoy the people and work at all three.  I was at SONGS last year, and agree that anybody who has not been there recently knows nada.

Diablo is clean, but toasty.  Hostile Dude no habla radiation vs. contamination.  SONGS is now low dose, low contam.  PVNGS is like an oil burner...

Finally, why would anybody try to sell SONGS to get an outage staffed on this little forum?  Call Bartlett Dr. Nasty....SONGS IS staffed.  Crystal River too....go bash them for a while.

[Brett LaVigne]

SONGS and Diablo both rock.  I prefer PVNGS for many reasons, but enjoy the people and work at all three. 

Prefer Palo to Diablo...ok if half paychecks are acceptable, personal choice.

Diablo is clean, but toasty.  Hostile Dude no habla radiation vs. contamination.  SONGS is now low dose, low contam.  PVNGS is like an oil burner...

You mean there's a difference?! And to think that all this time...
Diablo has the hottest heads in the industry but below the hard deck it is every bit as cool as Palo. But again, plant source term at Diablo and the fact that after 20 years I still don't know the difference between contam. and rad. has nothing to do with SONGS. Kind of a cheap shot dude, but hey, I can take it. I mean, you prefer half paychecks and surface of the sun temperatures out in the dusty desert at a INPO 4 plant. How credible can you be? Come on, I had to jab ya a little, my eye is still bruised!

Finally, why would anybody try to sell SONGS to get an outage staffed on this little forum?  Call Bartlett Dr. Nasty....SONGS IS staffed.  Crystal River too....go bash them for a while.

I have no beef with Crystal River. You are missing the point of my rant. I don't bash for the sake of bashing. I have worked many many plants over the years and 99% of the time I have had a good experience. Also know that there are a lot of people at SONGS that I like and get along with very well. But when I was approached at Diablo by SONGS management trying to recruit for their SGR outage a couple months ago, I explained that the money needed to be better to get people to go. The response was "But we have the sun" and "we have the beach". That is no joke! I heard that statement come out of the RPM at SONGS 14 years ago and they are still using it today. I find that insulting and you should too.

So call me Bitter, table for one. Or hostile, or take shots at my RP abilities, what ever. If that makes you feel like you are making a point or discrediting me in front of my peers, knock yourself out, I don't care. Even a guy who doesn't know a smear from a dose rate can probably do the math on this plant and figure out that it isn't a great deal and you'll make more at almost any other plant.

The SGR's happening during a busy fall was a golden opportunity to apply pressure and maybe close the HUGE gap between contractor and house wages. But as long as techs are ok with low wages and staffing with large amounts of non-American workers because compared to Mexico, they are all ok with the money, it will never change.

[Longtime Nuke]

  She simply is filling a slot mandated by the op license.  The real work is done by travelers just like the real work on the wrench side of the house is done by Bechtel craft.

Ahhh...there it is.  Now you are back on-topic.

The ever-familiar "house mice don't know/do doodah."  Brave, handsome road warriors singlehandedly powering the planet while utility losers flick boogers around the break room.  Nuclear Saviors deserving of truckloads of tax free cash, while actually underpaid, unappreciated, abused and neglected.

[Longtime Nuke]

Makes me glad I never worked in the shipyards...

IMHO, what desertdog described is a case of underqualified and unconfident house RP supervisors making decisions out of fear of being wrong or second guessed by totalitarian management.  Experienced travelers at SONGS have two choices - mindlessly obey, or as you put it, "get used to it."  It is their show afterall.


The only situations that I recall ever coming close to what is happening at SONGS now was Lucie in the mid-80's, CCNPP in the late 80's, and HB in the early 80's.

Don't criticize RP supervisors for the jihad on PCEs.  That has been driven VERY HARD from Atlanta.  Thank Davis Besse.

[HydroDave63]

To protect against an imaginary hazard?  I do not think they can apply enough pressure to justify that!

SONGS also has some unique history that might be adding to the tail-chasing...  http://www.howarth-smith.com/News/news-68.htm

[Longtime Nuke]

SONGS also has some unique history that might be adding to the tail-chasing...  http://www.howarth-smith.com/News/news-68.htm

These lawsuits were abandoned in 1997....over 12 years ago.  The "victims" never won.  SONGS RP long ago moved on.

I was at Comanche where we had a GREAT SGR.  Super results.  Wore scrubs almost everywhere in the can, so had numerous meaningless PCEs...over 100, I think.  Next thing you know...INPO AFI for failure to control contamination.  Major repercussions.

It is not RP supes who deserve the disdain here...at SONGS or anywhere else.  A bad call here or there is not unusual, but look to the regulator/INPO for the reasons for why plants over post-label-dress-lock-shield (pick any.).

[Longtime Nuke]

You have any mode other than derisive argumentativeness?  Must be a hoot to work with.  Best of luck with the union steward gig.

[HydroDave63]

You have any mode other than derisive argumentativeness?  Must be a hoot to work with.  Best of luck with the union steward gig.

Fall below that 7 mg/cm² skin threshold much?

On-topic: One of the first of those suits settled out of court with a check. http://www.howarth-smith.com/News/news-19.htm