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Offline Phurst

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Navy Nuc oops!
« on: Oct 23, 2007, 02:09 »
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/22/sub.misconduct/index.html

ELT? Unheard of! Keel haul comes to mind.
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LDO4CNO

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #1 on: Oct 23, 2007, 06:42 »
Any ELT's that know how to sample looking for orders?

Offline Roll Tide

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #2 on: Oct 23, 2007, 06:45 »
I remember in another thread an EOOW was challenged on his ability to adequately screen out BS from the ELTs. Looks like their is a reason you must have a high level of discrimination in evaluating what has come up.

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rlbinc

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #3 on: Oct 23, 2007, 08:03 »
Why DO they call it RADIO Chemistry, anyway?

He's an E.L.T.
and he squats to p**
and he don't do d*** all day
and I guess you heard he's a lazy t***...

(another old steaming song comes to mind...)



Hey watch officers, if you don't have to charge every few weeks, or if there's no yellow bag trash somewhere, someone must be blowing off samples.
« Last Edit: Oct 23, 2007, 08:08 by rlbinc »

Rad Sponge

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #4 on: Oct 23, 2007, 08:11 »
All I can say is,

How the fudge did this get out of nucleonics?

Also,

How freaking hard is it to be the underway or duty ELT that you can't do a primary on a daily basis?

tonynuke

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #5 on: Oct 24, 2007, 09:42 »
It takes alot of people to blow this off for this long.  Amazing.  Actually not amazing, I saw the writing on the wall, the downhill slide in the nuclear talent pool.  I left when I had the chance, but it was a heck of a ride.

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #6 on: Oct 24, 2007, 11:34 »
hmm.. apparently a LT recieved NJP... anyone else see something wrong with that? :-D

Is gundecking really a big problem in the fleet? I hear about lots of elt's getting in trouble for it.

Rad Sponge

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #7 on: Oct 25, 2007, 12:32 »
hmm.. apparently a LT recieved NJP... anyone else see something wrong with that? :-D

Is gundecking really a big problem in the fleet? I hear about lots of elt's getting in trouble for it.

Its easy for anyone to get in trouble with log keeping in general especially RC and RL div because these two divisions make up the bulk of the ORSE review. You constantly have to stay vigilant with the nuke notes, ACNs, Squadron letters, and a host of other messages and bullcrap that is not in the manuals to ensure your records are in compliance with whatever wam-o-dyne idea some desk jockey at NR comes up with to justify his existence.


JustinHEMI05

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #8 on: Oct 25, 2007, 01:19 »
I remember in another thread an EOOW was challenged on his ability to adequately screen out BS from the ELTs. Looks like their is a reason you must have a high level of discrimination in evaluating what has come up.

Never give away your signature as a rubber stamp. It is your vow.

That would be me and I never signed ANYTHING easily... especially ELT or RC div paper work. But you're right, I caught a lot of crap for it here at first. :) This just adds more logs on the the flames against ELTs. It really is sad because I like to believe that for the most part, ELTs are normal, good and honest. But, those few bad eggs out there muck up so royally bad that the spot light shines bright and wide and ruins things for everyone. The last few years at MARF and S8G haven't been good for ELTs for very similar reasons.

Seriously, how Fin hard is it to put on your costume and turn a few valves?

Justin

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #9 on: Oct 25, 2007, 01:25 »
hmm.. apparently a LT recieved NJP... anyone else see something wrong with that? :-D

Is gundecking really a big problem in the fleet? I hear about lots of elt's getting in trouble for it.

Its not just ELTs my friend. But, don't be discouraged. I would guess that 98% of the people are doing the right thing out there. But its those few that when caught, really bring down the pain for everyone. You will see the spot light shine heavily on things like this, that it will seem like everyone is doing it. I hope you especially, as a young impressionable nub (and I mean that in a good way), sees just how stupid this is and realize that it isn't worth it just to save a few minutes or a little work. You will get caught eventually if you follow the red brick road. And just like drinking and driving, you can't afford it.

Justin

Kev3399

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #10 on: Oct 25, 2007, 03:05 »
Never give away your signature as a rubber stamp. It is your vow.

I can agree with everyone about this topic when standing EOOW. Especially ELT and RC Div stuff. It amazed me at how bad some ELTs really are. I never really knew it until I started signing all their paperwork. One little challenge and usually they would fold and the facts of the matter would come out. It amazes me that this problem on the Hampton went for so long. It appears to me that it wasn't just 6 ELTs and one officer......most likely an entire Engineering Dept lack of care and ownership. What about their check chem program??? Non existent apparently. Thats a problem from the CO on down.

As far as a LT recieving NJP....thats possible except its called Admirals Mast. I believe they get a piece of paper in their service record and that spells out the end of their naval career. I might be wrong though. Anyone else out there got better info on this?

As far as gundecking and the talk of ELTs getting in trouble as a common occurence.....The current Admiral has ELT performance as one of his 3 major priorities. This was put out well before this incident and it is a major problem across the program. I can only imagine the atmosphere in his office when he was getting briefed on this "oops".

Marvin

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #11 on: Oct 25, 2007, 09:21 »
We had a few sleazy nukes on my ship (over 20 years ago).  ELT's are most apt to radio logs and to cause problems when they radio logs since it's probably not lube oil cooler outlet temperature we are talking about and since real chemistry takes a lot more work than reading a gauge.  However, hard work is never an excuse for falsifying information or blowing off a sample.

Truth be known, this has been going on for many years and we have been fixing it without getting the zeroes involved.  When a friend copped an attitude and started getting sleazy, we covered for them while letting them know that we weren't going to stand for it.  There was more than one occassion when I covered for a sleazy (translated unhappy) crewmate to keep his butt out of the brig while controlling the chemistry that he blew off.

It sounds like there's something much bigger here than a couple of ELT's getting sleazy.  Sounds like there are latent organizational weaknesses and a large group of unhappy shipmates that stopped challenging one another to "do the right thing."  If the Navy's investigational team concludes that it's just a bunch of bad apples engaging in misconduct, then they are as bad or worse than the bad apples and aren't really fixing the bigger problem.  It's not a bunch of bad apples, it is a bad barrel.

I feel for these guys and the barrel they are in.  I hope the rest of you active duty ELT's (and nukes in general) don't stop challenging each other to "do the right thing."  It's what Rickover would have wanted, and it's what our buddies need and deserve.

Marvin

Rad Sponge

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #12 on: Oct 25, 2007, 09:48 »
We had a few sleazy nukes on my ship (over 20 years ago).  ELT's are most apt to radio logs and to cause problems when they radio logs since it's probably not lube oil cooler outlet temperature we are talking about and since real chemistry takes a lot more work than reading a gauge.  However, hard work is never an excuse for falsifying information or blowing off a sample.

Truth be known, this has been going on for many years and we have been fixing it without getting the zeroes involved.  When a friend copped an attitude and started getting sleazy, we covered for them while letting them know that we weren't going to stand for it.  There was more than one occassion when I covered for a sleazy (translated unhappy) crewmate to keep his butt out of the brig while controlling the chemistry that he blew off.

It sounds like there's something much bigger here than a couple of ELT's getting sleazy.  Sounds like there are latent organizational weaknesses and a large group of unhappy shipmates that stopped challenging one another to "do the right thing."  If the Navy's investigational team concludes that it's just a bunch of bad apples engaging in misconduct, then they are as bad or worse than the bad apples and aren't really fixing the bigger problem.  It's not a bunch of bad apples, it is a bad barrel.

I feel for these guys and the barrel they are in.  I hope the rest of you active duty ELT's (and nukes in general) don't stop challenging each other to "do the right thing."  It's what Rickover would have wanted, and it's what our buddies need and deserve.

Marvin


There is hardly an excuse anymore because the bulk of the logs are now computer generated and even the secondary system is automated for analyzing samples.

I think one of fundamental flaws with Sub ELT life is the workload. My experience was that there never was a chance to breathe.

Having a robust check-chem program, a robust Audit and Surveillance Program, a robust training program, etc etc means you are never done with paper work. It is insane, utterly insane, and utterly impossible to get it all done, but the appearance of propriety is all that matters in the end and if you get an AA, or E on your ORSE.

Oh yeah, and all the actual work that has to get done, spending your off watch doing an observation on a maint evolution that is being done just for the observation and not because the system actually needs to get breached.

I don't condone gundecking, but I understand why it happens.

So, if there are some NR/SQN spies out there reading this, take a good look at how ludicrous the amount of bs that goes into having a successful RL div and for what?

Let's not forget on top of all the RL div stuff, the ELT has to play mechanic and participate in all the M-Div training, PMS, tag outs, etc and stay on top of mechanics who can't seem to figure out how to do a turbidity.

I am thankful I became an ELT, because it gave 3 distinct skill sets that are employed SEPARATELY in the commericial world.

Looking back, I would not want to go through all that crap again unless some serious overhauls were made to the administration of RL div.



« Last Edit: Oct 25, 2007, 09:53 by Nuclear NASCAR »

kwicslvr

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #13 on: Oct 25, 2007, 11:35 »
I can't agree more with the above post...

rlbinc

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #14 on: Oct 25, 2007, 12:36 »
I understand why it happens, too.

It's due to lack of integrity.

It's not unique to the Navy or high workload environments.


jowlman

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #15 on: Oct 25, 2007, 05:06 »
I guess this is the quality of the program when the training commands use the "You're a pump not a Filter" mentality. Admiral Rickover must be spinning in his grave.

Rad Sponge

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #16 on: Oct 25, 2007, 08:48 »
I understand why it happens, too.

It's due to lack of integrity.

It's not unique to the Navy or high workload environments.



I am not condoning what the RL Div did, I am making a general observation of what I saw during my time. Most of the stuff I did was utter bs. The actual work that has to get done to be in compliance with the Radiological Controls for Ships and the Water Chemistry Manual are easy peasey. I loved that stuff. I prided myself on memorizing those manuals.

Water Chemistry and RP are second nature to me. I see commercial RP and commercial Chem and it makes sense. The other day I covered the breach of a big ass Main Steam Isolation of a BWR and covered the extraction of the valve, crane op, and all that. It was easy, even with NOS, GE, NRC, and House watching me. Survey, brief, wrap it, tag it, outta here. No nonsense, no bs A to B. No one got crapped up, no spills, and here's your survey.

If that was the Navy, we'd still be briefing it.

In retrospect, it wasn't the books that made things difficult, it was all the superfluous mumbo jumbo that some auditor or assist or some message or "industry best practice" came up with. I was constantly having to cover my ass and that of my division because RL div became an interpretation and not a compliance.

Unless you've ever been a LELT, you got nothing to opine here other than gundecking is wrong.

Yeah, we all get that.
« Last Edit: Oct 25, 2007, 09:52 by Nuclear NASCAR »

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #17 on: Oct 25, 2007, 10:35 »
I am not condoning what the RL Div did, I am making a general observation of what I saw during my time. Most of the stuff I did was utter bs. The actual work that has to get done to be in compliance with the Radiological Controls for Ships and the Water Chemistry Manual are easy peasey. I loved that stuff. I prided myself on memorizing those manuals.

Water Chemistry and RP are second nature to me. I see commercial RP and commercial Chem and it makes sense. The other day I covered the breach of a big ass Main Steam Isolation of a BWR and covered the extraction of the valve, crane op, and all that. It was easy, even with NOS, GE, NRC, and House watching me. Survey, brief, wrap it, tag it, outta here. No nonsense, no bs A to B. No one got crapped up, no spills, and here's your survey.

If that was the Navy, we'd still be briefing it.

In retrospect, it wasn't the books that made things difficult, it was all the superfluous mumbo jumbo that some auditor or assist or some message or "industry best practice" came up with. I was constantly having to cover my ass and that of my division because RL div became an interpretation and not a compliance.

Unless you've ever been a LELT, you got nothing to opine here other than gundecking is wrong.

Yeah, we all get that.

I was a LELT on a submarine and at prototype, and I say that there is no excuse for anything ELTs do wrong in this light. The job ain't that hard and any ELT that says its too hard to meet the standards probably shouldn't have been an ELT in the first place. I agree though that with every new monitor, orse board, or JO on a mission that has an opinion on how things should be done, you get frustrated and fed up. But if you stick to the letter of the law... the books... you can tell all the opinions to pack sand. I did that frequently, which wasn't necessarily the best thing for me or my career sometimes but as long I was right and my people were happy... then I was happy. And it isn't hard to stick to the books.

Justin

Rad Sponge

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #18 on: Oct 26, 2007, 06:30 »
Yep Justin, you nailed it.

The books were easy to follow, but making life easy for yourself and your crew was a balancing act.

Throw in your career and how much you wanted to advance and be ranked as a First Class and you just added a whole new layer of subjectivity to administration of RL div.

Go with the flow and make ORSE/SQN/ENG/EDMC happy or pride yourself on being "right" and going nowhere.

Aint it grand.

rlbinc

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #19 on: Oct 26, 2007, 08:46 »


Unless you've ever been a LELT, you got nothing to opine here other than gundecking is wrong.



Yeah, I see what you mean. After thirty years in the industry, WTF do I know...

Offline Longhornfan

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #20 on: Oct 26, 2007, 08:58 »
This was way more than an RL Div/ELT problem.  How do you go 30 days without taking a primary sample and NO ONE notices?  Not the EOOW?  Not the EWS?  Not the EO waiting for the valves to be called in?  The mechanic expecting to read for the valve operation?  Sorry...this was an entire department that lost its integrity.  http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,154859,00.html?ESRC=eb.nl

No excuse can justify that.

Rad Sponge

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #21 on: Oct 26, 2007, 09:13 »
Yeah, I see what you mean. After thirty years in the industry, WTF do I know...

I don't know, WTF do you know?

The discussion I am trying to address here is not about grand ideologies, honor, courage, and commitment, and all that, but a root cause analysis of what could of happened.

ELT performance was on the front burner when I was in (96-05) and in my last year, on my last deployment, I spent every Sunday with the CO doing ORSE review because the audit before I came on board showed gross negligence and integrity issues.

I came on board at 12:00 PM during an ONREP, checked in, met everyone, and then by 6:00 PM went down before the mid-watch. I was in a critique that night because ELTs were falsifying TLD reader paperwork.

Also, found out that the other crew had two months worth of routine survey maps that were created in a day!! I mean, the underway ELT did nothing for about two months and then he and his CRA had a survey fest in the lab. How you can go two months and no one asks where the survey maps are? Systematic failure.

So basically I spent a entire patrol figuring out what was bs and what was real. I had no clue, but it all had to be made ready for ORSE.

I told my CRA that the other crew's records were a fantasy and what he did with that, I have no idea. I re-injured my back and had to leave the boat and eventually the Navy.

It was the worst two months of my Navy career, but the best learning experience of it all.

I don't think the USS Hartford is an isolated example of bad ELTs. 5-6 ELTs just don't decide to conspire against the machine.

I don't think there is an overall problem with the quality of students.

I do think that being an ELT is the hardest administratively controlled job in the nuclear navy on par with RC-div.

I do think an overhaul change needs to be made and all the little notes and palaver out there needs to be incorporated into the books or dumped out the Aft Drain Pump.

To quote Chris Rock:

"I don't agree with OJ killing his wife, but I understand it"



« Last Edit: Oct 26, 2007, 09:56 by Nuclear NASCAR »

rlbinc

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #22 on: Oct 26, 2007, 10:30 »

I don't think the USS Hartford is an isolated example of bad ELTs. 5-6 ELTs just don't decide to conspire against the machine.

I don't think there is an overall problem with the quality of students.


I think one of these statements conflicts with the other. Either this problem is isolated to a specific set of circumstances - or it is pervasive and occurs more often than detection reveals.

I agree with the first statement and disagree with the second. Science and experience tells me that 10% of an iceberg is visible. Far more hazard exists than reaches the light of day. Human Performance is based on keeping a very low threshold of detection and learning as much about latent factors as we can.

I was in RC Division in the 1970's. We didn't blow off anything. I imagined that a transfer to Leavenworth would still beat the hell out of Fantail Justice, which occurred occasionally.

As an example of standards back then, I saw an RO and a Watch Officer kicked out of the program for altering an ECP by 5 inches at the request of the Watch Officer. The Reactor went critical a few tenths of an inch below  the -3% delta rho calculation. ( We calculated ECPs at -3% and +2%, and had to go critical between the two.)The original RO calc was correct, but he didn't bother to stick by his numbers or expend the ten minutes to walk the Watch Officer through the tax form.

Integrity is doing a job as correctly as capable and remaining professional enough in the aftermath to either justify your method or accept correction, if in error. Saying "have it your way" isn't part of the deal.

Only Doctors get to bury their mistakes.

I remember our CO using the words, "What good is the mind of our best Reactor Operator if he lacks the gonads to do the right thing? Guys, we need both."

I guess they need to teach Sunday School in the Nuclear Program...
"For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known."




« Last Edit: Oct 26, 2007, 10:43 by rlbinc »

Offline Duke Nuker

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #23 on: Oct 26, 2007, 10:42 »

The discussion I am trying to address here is not about grand ideologies, honor, courage, and commitment, and all that, but a root cause analysis of what could of happened.


Unless you are Root Cause Qualified and unless you have direct access to the records and people involved, you are involved in the same conjecture as everyone else.

It happened, it sucks that good people are probably going to be rolled up in the housecleaning, but we aren't gonna fix it out here.....Superhero or not.

I was in during the 80's so WTF do I know anyway.
Is it time for coffee yet?

ddklbl

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Re: Navy Nuc oops!
« Reply #24 on: Oct 26, 2007, 01:08 »
Jason, I don't know what point you're trying to make.  Are you saying the overabundance of "help" (i.e. policy notes, the NPIM rolodex of random information, squadron letters) is to blame for this situation?

 


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