Safety

[joey71]

I checked out the 360training online that nukeworker offers and they had sent me a price list of all their osha training, that is obviously what I am interested in.
My question is would there be a future in the nuke biz for the safety work? (I know safety is a priority in this business that is why I ask.)

I have 14 yrs in the carpenters union and would like to go a different direction in my career path, I really enjoy working inside of the plants and would like to stay that way. What other training would be needed for a full time safety position?


Also right now they do not offer the 511 online, that is the pre req to the 501. However they offer tons of training in the "general industry" and "construction" --

Which one of these would be geared more toward the nuke industry? I am guessing the "general industry" would be it. But when I "guess" -- usually I am wrong.

Thanks for the help, Joe

[Already Gone]

The 511 is also known as OSHA 30.  I do believe that they offer it on line.  But you can probably get it for free at the union hall.  You do not need an OSHA 501.  All that does is give you the right to teach the OSHA 10 and OSHA 30 courses.  It makes you a safety TRAINER.  There is a HUUUUUGE difference between a safety trainer and a safety specialist.  Quite a few of my guys have the 500 or 501, but it doesn't, in my opinion, make them better safety specialists.

You can take a lot of courses, and spend a lot of money doing it, and still not be employable as a safety specialist.

You need practical experience in dealing with actual safety issues.  RP techs are generally the first place I go to when I need to hire someone.  The majority of them have been doing the industrial safety along with the radiological safety on most of their jobs.  Even those who haven't can translate one into the other without a lot of effort.

I've had a few people come in from the manual trades.  some of them claimed to have done a lot of work as General Foremen or Supervisors - but obviously didn't pick up any leadership skills from that.

If you have 14 years in the UBC&J, a change in direction might be a little difficult.  The Safety Professional, is a member of management.  There is no union contract, no steward to protect you, usually no double-time, frequently no pension fund or vacation pay.  I don't mean to make it sound bad.  My guys and I do pretty well.  But someone who is used to working under union contracts, with union benefits and rules, may not like the change.

Also, as a skilled tradesman you will have to go through a dramatic transition of your mind.  You will have to forget everything you know about working like a carpenter without forgetting anything about how to do carpenter work.  You'll have to learn everyone else's job too. 

Your best path to jobs in safety is to take a few of these courses.  Start with the OSHA 10 or OSHA 30.  Don't try allof them or spend a lot of money yet.  Then try to get on with a company as a supervisor for a while.  Give the weekly safety meetings, do the inspection reports, write up the injury and near-miss reports, do the Job Hazard Analyses, and hangout with your safety man as much as possible.  Try to learn what he knows.  find out what he looks for and how he finds it.  Start thinking like he does ( basically, you have to constantly ask yourself: "what is the stupidest thing that could be done right now?"  or "What unlikely - nearly impossible - situation can come up and bite somebody in the ass right now?). 
Then, grow a thick skin.  You have to be wearing a hide like an elephant to do this job and not let it get to you.  If you have sensitive feelings - or care even a little bit about what the workers think of you - you're cooked.  You are going to have to stand in front of a group of people who have done a job for decades, and tell them how to do it.  You are going to tell them things that they will think are stupid and un-necessary.  You are going to subject yourself to ridicule just about daily because you are suggesting things that - although REQUIRED BY LAW AND THE CONTRACT - they will consider to be impossible or just stupid.  They won't waste a heartbeat in telling you so either.
Management, on the other hand, preaches loud and often that safety is their number one priority, but they will put only one safety specialist on noon to midnight to cut costs.  (Like to see them work their engineers and managers that way, huh?)  They will complain that the schedule and the budget won't permit them to do the work the way you know it needs to be done.  So, they'll undercut you, distract you, send you on a goose chase, or tell you to take a day off while they "git-r-done".  They'll think of you as nothing but an overhead expense that produces no revenue (ignoring the millions in workers' comp costs that you'll save them every year).

Still want to do it?  Good luck.  It is the best, most rewarding job I have ever had.

[retired nuke]

Beer - I have enjoyed the last year as a safety guy - we appointed a union member to our safety dept as part of our VPP program, and I got the spot.
I agree, the OSHA 30 and some experience in safety at a jobsite is needed. While it seems second nature for RPs, it is a shift in mindset. I can imagine it's even more so for craft. I fond that my biggest safety headaches are RPs though....many seem to feel exempt because they "aren't doing the work"... even though they are still at risk from the energy isolation of the tagout, or the confined space.
I am pursuing the OHST (hopefully before the end of the year) and will keep my hand in even after I return to RP next year.

[Mike McFarlin]

A 40-hour OSHA course does not make a safety dude or dudette the same way passing the NRRPT exam does not make you a competent HP or having the OSHA scaffologist cert makes you a good carpenter. 

Safety it is not the cake walk job it appears to be.  

Amen, brother. Of course, anything worth having is not easy!

[Already Gone]

So true. So very true.
I am approached almost daily by people who show interest in working for us.
My impression is that may believe that the money is the only difference between my job and theirs.  In my case, I started with an ambition to move up the ladder of responsibility.  I was more dissatisfied with the limitations of my job than with the money - although I wasn't completely happy with that either.
I know that many techs just want to be foot-soldiers.  They could do more, but don't want to.  Others think that they should be better compensated for the job they have without taking on more responsibility, and they are not entirely wrong about that.  It is easy to make the mistake of watching someone do a job and thinking that you can do it too.
I guess that you could look at a lot of people and think , "That guy gets paid a lot more than I do and doesn't seem to be working nearly as hard.  So, why not me?"
That is the point where a lot of people leave their analysis.  But, you really have to look a lot deeper than that.  Safety management requires a different set of skills that are not readily apparent to an observer.  A course will give you information, but the skills have to be developed by the individual.
It isn't hard to make my job look easy, because the effort does not appear on the surface.  This is probably true of any job.  I think a lot about how many people watch the RP tech and just assume that it is as easy as it looks.  For that matter, driving an Indy car looks pretty simple too if you don't think about it very much.  Most of you married guys with children at home have probably thought that it would be nice to swap places with your wife - and very few of us have held that belief for long.  I, for one, know that my wife could go make us a good living, but I wouldn't take her job - even if I could do it almost as well as she does.
No job is really as easy as it seems to be, but that doesn't mean you can't learn it.  In my humble opinion, most of the people on this board could learn my job if they try.

[joey71]

A 40-hour OSHA course does not make a safety dude or dudette the same way passing the NRRPT exam does not make you a competent HP or having the OSHA scaffologist cert makes you a good carpenter. 

Safety it is not the cake walk job it appears to be.   

Mutant-- Thanks for the quote, however that has nothing to do with the question that was asked. I was asking what training would get me geared up --- I do not believe that there is a 40 hr OSHA course anyway. There isnt a certificaftion out there that makes you a "professional" in any industry, but it does give you the knowledge to becoming one to grow further.


Beercourt-- Thank you sir for all of your words of wisdom and that would be from real life experience. In your first post you gave me a baseline to start with. Iam not saying that being a safety professional/specialist is an easy money. By all means that would be totally opposite. You have the workers just wanting to prove you wrong constantly, sitting in front of a number of grown folks wanting to fall asleep each time you speak, others that think your job is a total waste of money and as you said management taking any opportunity to push you aside so that a job can get done.

As far as the whole Union tradesman, that does not bother me in the least bit, I work very hard and really cannot care what a "steward" has to say -- there is not much that he or she says or does that reflects upon my longevity of a job or my concerns at a job. The union contract is just about the same,, Contractors do just about what they wish as long as they keep members working, the union is happy. I personally have had it with beating the heck out of my body and firmly believe that I do not want to be building @ the age of 50!!

I wish to just choose a different road, not too worried about how hard it is or what it takes to get started, it is what I have an interest in and what I would like to do for the rest of my working career.

NOT looking for a cakewalk- if I was I would have never been a Carpenter!!

Thank you in advance for any information. Take care   

[MeterSwangin]

Amen, Brother.

The Safety guys come in two flavors:  1) the burned-out looking to quietly cruise into retirement without ever again doing anything useful, and 2) busy-body hero wannabees too lame to actually get into the fire department.

After 2 years group 2 loses steam and merges into group 1.

Ponder deeply: Can I get passionate about chinstraps?  Will proper earplug use fulfill my purpose on earth?  Can my kids really be proud of daddy's new parking lot speedbump?

[Already Gone]

It's not such a minority anymore.  We are a growing breed.  But there are more flavors than Baskin-Robbins.  My current roster is around 40 people.  There are 40 distinct personalities.  The one thing they all have in common is a true passion for what we do.  I work a lot harder than I did when I was swinging a meter - but I don't get nearly as tired.  It is always interesting, always new, frequently frustrating, and sometimes impossible.   But, I love doing it, and I can tell you that there are at least 40 other people who feel the same as I do about that.

[illegalsmile]

It is always interesting, always new, ....

That's an understatement. In many places, safety and IH merge and then you deal with more issues than you can imagine...then, if you really want to make it interesting, get into a job like the one I'm in, where you throw in environmental issues. Now THAT's livin'!!!

[duke99301]

Ok I am leaving safety and going to work ALARA  back to hp land. how that for a jump.

[kevarc]

Sorry to dig up an old post.

To be Safety, I agree you better have a thick skin or they will eat your alive.

To management you are the guy who is making them spend money and slow things down.

To the workers you are the guy telling they have to wear something or do something they do not want to.

You always have one joker who wants to know why he has to do something when OSHA may not state it clearly.  That is when your eyes roll, your eyelid twitches and then you fall back on the General Duty clause.

There are days when you feel like you are adult daycare.

[Already Gone]

But it's a good job if you can get it
Some of y'all jes need ta keep on swangin' that thar meter, though.  It is sadly true that you can get pretty far (but no farther) with an RO-20 hanging off your shoulder even if you are still waiting for your first clue.

[Chimera]

T Tarbox's comments would help explain why one almost never sees a safety person anywhere near the job - which would account for having to research an incident that happened two days ago.  Yanno, all that paperwork can be hard on the butt.

I'm not picking on you, T Tarbox.  I don't know if I've worked with you on the same job.  But I do know spotting the safety man on the job is almost as rare as spotting UFOs.  That might help explain why that lowly RP Tech with his RO-20 hanging from his shoulder seems to get stuck with enforcing the safety rules more often than not.  The safety guy must be busy advancing beyond that "but no farther" point in his career.

No hostilities towards anyone intended - just an observation from 30+ years on the job.

[Already Gone]

These are rather astute observations.  The sorry truth is - especially in nuclear plants - that the money and resources are not allocated to the place where they do the most good (actually, to where they avert the greatest harm).
I'm a little spoiled in that I usually work on the turbine floor only.  I get to spend the majority of my time right where the work happens.  It is a luxury that most safety specialists do not have, and many do not appreciate.  While I get to dedicate my time to a smaller group who are all working in one place, my counterparts have hundreds of people working all over the site.
While there are RP's at hand at every work location to keep that 100 cpm of loose contamination off your ankle, there is one safety specialist tasked with supporting crews who are simultaneously working everywhere from the switch yard to the cavity to the intake to the S/G's.  They are spread pretty thin and can't always spend the time with their people that I can with mine.
There also seems to be a mentality among some companies that the site will provide the safety oversight so they don't even staff that position, or they add it as an additional responsibility for their ALARA staff.  Either way, they are making a mistake.
So, why do RP's end up carrying the ball for us so much?  Well, for one thing, you're there.  For another, you are pre-disposed to be aware of hazards and are compliance oriented.  Not to mention the fact that most of you are capable of the job we are doing because you are already doing it in one specialized area.
Out of the 40 Safety Specialists in my company, 13 of us are former RP Techs.  That "but no farther" point in your career is anywhere you choose to put it.  If your attitude is:

The Safety guys come in two flavors:  1) the burned-out looking to quietly cruise into retirement without ever again doing anything useful, and 2) busy-body hero wannabees too lame to actually get into the fire department.

After 2 years group 2 loses steam and merges into group 1.

Ponder deeply: Can I get passionate about chinstraps?  Will proper earplug use fulfill my purpose on earth?  Can my kids really be proud of daddy's new parking lot speedbump?

then that point is evident for all to see.

[MeterSwangin]

Out of the 40 Safety Specialists in my company, 13 of us are former RP Techs.  That "but no farther" point in your career is anywhere you choose to put it.  [/quote]

Safety guys are good people.  Just not into carrying the ball.  Or receiving, blocking, or snapping.  Or taping ankles on the sideline. 

Content in the 5th row yelling "blitz....blitz!."  Then out early before the traffic gets thick.

[Already Gone]

Y'know what?  You're right.  I have worked at SONGS as an RP - with Chimera the last time, actually.  I gotta tell you that your assessment of their safety people just might be correct.  I don't know how their record has fared in the five plus years since then, but it was awful when I was there.
Maybe it isn't fair to lay all the blame at their feet, but if a site has people getting hurt so much, and the workforce (you) have characterized them the way that you do, then something must be wrong.
Even if they are smart, hard-working, dedicated, passionate people, they still seem to have failed at their primary job -- getting you on their team.  Why has that not happened?  Are they as apathetic as you say they are?  Is management handcuffing them, contradicting them, spreading them too thin, or what?
Lesson here for anyone wanting to be a safety professional:  You can NOT be everywhere, or even at the right place all of the time.  Your first priority is to get the workforce to think as you do about safety.  You need to motivate them to make the right decisions and to seek you out to help in that process.
So, instead of me banging on MeterSwangin for his bad attitude toward the safety staff, let me pose the question:  How did he get that attitude, and what would it take to change it?
MS, if you think you could do a better job, you're probably right.  But to do a better job than they do, you have to think differently from the way they do.  Yeah, if all they care about is chin straps and speed bumps, you would do well to not emulate them.  Just don't paint us all with the same brush, or judge us until you have tried to do our job.

[HydroDave63]

Being spread too thin is definitely not the issue with the SONGS safety staff.  SONGS safety is very well staffed (in numbers) compared to their peers.  If they are not out in the field it is a matter of priorities and motivation. Priorities are set by the leadership.  Leadership is also responsible to provide motivation to those who lack it.

Would providing leadership involve leaving the large styrofoam building on the north side of site, or the donut-box shaped one just outside the PA? 

[MeterSwangin]

At Palo Verde we had 3 Safety guys on days typical of the genre.  One was a former Security officer fixated on gloves and handrail use.  Utterly without a clue about confined space monitoring, fall restraint rules, or rigging safety.  Moe.

Larry the world's friendliest guy.  Walked around all day greeting people.  "How ya doin, Chief?"  Did absolutely nothing productive.  Several RPs had tried to get him interested in ctmt cleanliness and bump/trip hazards.  "How ya doin, Chief?"  What a goof.  Got one exactly like him working for Bechtel at San Onofre.

Curly was a turd.  Former RP, counting the days to retirement.  Laid low all day.  Hit him with a concern or issue and he fumed "line owns safety...you fix it!"  Nice.  Took him a week to get a gasket sampled for asbestos.  Job was done and gone before Curly got back with positive results.  Oh well.  Another week closer to retirement.

[mostlyharmless]

Lets please keep it cool. But. Can you get passionate about rigging straps? I watched as a man with fluid leaking out of both ears was carried out of a CA on a stretcher.I dropped the ropes for the EMTs. This man ,with a wife and children, died because of a bad strap and a safety manager who said " I can see everything I need to see about safety from my office window". This is fact, I was there. This is not an epistemological debate, this is not about showing off intelect, this is about how we go about our jobs, how we affect each other, how we help ourselves and each other. Its not about saving souls but about saving fingers and eyes,lives. No matter how cliche it seams, safety is important. I very much appreciate the posts. I feel at my site safety is over programed. Its more about the posters and the stats, that to a degree we have lost focus on the job. All flash and no substance. How do I fix this at a site with 10,000 employees? MH

[duke99301]

Hum one thing I can tell you safety starts with you and your acts do you ever see the rp done in the safety brief? not unless they are told to go. will I been on both sides I been a house manager two times and many contracts with GE Westinghouse and Shaw, DZ and others . I worked hard to get out of the heard I been to many classes that sites pay for I never gone to collage so what I been in nukes since I was 18 years old I been safety on coal plants and gas plants and clean up sites .and it all comes to one thing management has to back the program. the site I am at now they back the program I am used to help review job plans.
I seen and been one a site where a mans died , a kid broke his back and seen guys fall.I had to do the write up for a21 year old kid lose a thumb.
I been turbine sites where many folks brings leave site for the bar at lunch and pack stuff for drug test.
when a rigger did  not check his rigging who fault is it? when the foreman give the brief and just drops the sign in sheet on the table and walks out where did the system fail?
nukes have a better safety program from what I have seen.
All workers must have a role in it . rules to live by are  must . how many of you wear sneakers in the can when the book calls for steel toed boots. safety starts with you.
And anyone can stop a job. STAR.  self check. all the key words.
house keeping is big clean up after your self.
At palo verde a couple years ago RP had a SAM on a cart that was not made to hold the weight and they covered it with herculite around the base  so no one would see it . will we all make mistakes
use your fall protection do not take short cuts. and watch out for your friend.
every accident can be prevented . and safety starts with you.
I just seen a man let go for saying he seen something twice in one week that could have been prevented. and he took no action.
good luck be pro active.
all sites have good programs but you get  what you pay for.buddy of mine told me a long time ago when we were working alara I do not fly for 55, my rates gone up since then.
I think Beer court would agree with me safety starts with you.  we can give you the tools it is up to you to use them.

[mostlyharmless]

I agree, most of us have the tools. Most of us have the basic desire not to get hurt.Most of us will evaluate a condition OR action and accept risk,possible outcomes vs.desired outcomes,up to some point were the possible outcome is to much. Each individual must decide for him/herself. But rather than a culture developing on its own through a collectivised will , I believe management has the broader reach and the responsibility to effect or influence the overall attitude towards safety. If you talk about BBS a lot and talk about the numbers and make observations part of you eval. and tie it to an annual raise then its all about BBS and not safety. You cannot crush someone for a mistake but through  thorough examination of human performance and motivation you can begin to establish a culture that values safety for its on sake. I don't care about the stats. I care about preventing you from getting hurt,overexposed,etc. Please forgive me, I'm a little rusty with expressing myself and I feel I'm beginning to drift. What have you seen that works? I do not wish only to question but to figure this out. I want to bring something back to the folks I work with. Am I making sense?  We are not running around killing each other at srs but we could be better.  MH

[Already Gone]

People have three competing motivational centers which control every decision, and the behavior which results from those decisions.

The body -- do it because it feels good.

The ego -- do it because it looks good.

The soul (or conscience) -- do it because it is good.

The effective manager eliminates the body and the ego from the process OR uses them to guide behavior in the desired direction.

It feels good to get the job over and get to the relaxation that comes after.  It feels bad to have to go all the way back to the tool crib to get the harness (correct tool, ladder, welding goggles, ... etc. ) that you should have brought to the job.  So, we encourage them to do it the right way the first time because shortcuts will inevitably result in more work because they won't be allowed.

It looks good to get done on schedule.  Refer to the do-over described above.  It looks bad to get scolded for cheating on the safety rules.  It looks bad to miss a scheduled completion time because you got sent back to get the right gear or had a job shut down for safety reasons.

Those who act on their conscience need no external stimulus to reshape their behavior.  We give them positive recognition and reward, but they don't really need it.

Anyone can be under the influence of any of the three motivational forces at any given time.  We reinforce safe behavior and react negatively to unsafe behavior.  That way, all three bases are covered.

The reinforcement, both positive and negative, must come from the leadership.  It doesn't work if the safety staff does all the right things and the management ignores or contradicts the message.  Managers are people too.  So their behavior has to be influenced as well.  We reward management for supporting safe work by giving them the schedule and budget successes that come from safe performance.  We give them negative reinforcement (condition reports, fines, work stoppages, bad performance reviews... etc.) when they fail to make safe decisions.

In any case, as long as we can make safe behavior easier, more efficient (meaning that they take fewer man-hours overall) cheaper, and more rewarding than unsafe behaviors, people at all levels will make safe choices that lead to safe behavior. 

Wearing a hardhat is never stylish or comfortable, for example.  People don't like wearing them.  But, if it is an ingrained habit, we wear them without a second thought.  We develop that habit because we were atn some point convinced that we were better off wearing them than not.  It's just that simple and just that complicated at the same time.

[co60slr]

That sounds like something that a freshman would read in Chapter 3 of a Psych 101 textbook used at any of 10,000 community colleges around the country.  While the three motivators listed may influence some decisions and therefore behaviors, the list is certainly not all-inclusive.

Here are a few scenarios that do not fit the b-s-e list of decision influencers – unfortunately there are many others.  

A laborer made a poor decision to enter a confined space without reading and understanding the entry permit, ensuring a confined space attendant was present, or verifying that the atmosphere was monitored for acceptable entry conditions.  This unsafe behavior resulted in a fatality.  Did he decide to enter the confined space because it felt good (body)?  No.  Because he thought it looked good (ego)?  No.  He certainly didn't make the decision because it was good (conscience).  He entered the confined space because his boss told him to.  Neither individual had the training or knowledge to recognize right from wrong.

A traveling carpenter supporting a refueling outage was erecting scaffolding 35' above the deck and although she was not protected from falling, she decided not to employ a fall protection system.  She had been properly trained and fully understood that the site procedure required her to use a fall protection system under these working conditions.  Why did she make this poor decision?   Not because it made her look good, feel good, or because it was good.   She made a poor decision to work unsafely because she needs money to feed her kids.  Her perception (and perception in this case is reality) that a female traveler who brought up safety issues would be penciled in on the first lay-off list was the foundation of her decision making process.

The two scenarios are somewhat simplified and from them I can make no causal analysis as to why the workers did what they did.   However, Scenario #1 suggests the supervisor is 100% accountable for the lack of safety.   What actions does management take at this hypothetical facility when a supervisor endangers his/her workers?   If nothing, than management is to blame.   When was the last time that facility's corporate office sent a VP to the site to question management on their safety culture shortcomings?   If never, than the CEO is to blame.   It's all about Leadership.

In Scenario #2, was there fall protection available and she consciously decided not to use it?   If so, she not only endangered her own life but the lives of her coworkers.  How will she be held accountable?   However...did she and her supervisor discuss the job, but not safety factors?   Is it difficult to check out the required fall protection at this facility?   Was she even trained on how to use all PPE required for her job?  Etc, etc.   

If ANY nuclear worker thinks that his/her job is in jeopardy if a safety concern is raised, then the General Manager of that facility is to blame, along with the culture that person has allowed to persist in that environment.   There are surely more problems in such a nuclear organization than the lack of fall protection.  Most nuclear organizations have programs in place to acknowledge anonymous workers and their concerns.  If not, there are always outside organizations willing to listen to a truckload of worker complaints.

   

[co60slr]

The VP at DCPP participates in the investigation of recordables (house and contractor) and visits the site where the event occurred.  Other sites have the same level of oversight.

And my point is that the organizations that I have witnessed to have successful safety programs (i.e., Zero Deaths) are ones where senior management frequents job sites BEFORE the recordable.   If not on the jobsite, than I have heard their consistent message daily at meetings:  "Safety is #1".

I'll concede that there is no secret formula for this, other than top down leadership.   For those Safety Managers that do not have the support of their senior management, I salute you, sir/madam.   You have a difficult uphill road ahead.

[mostlyharmless]

This also is my opinion. For management to say "we give you the tools,now its up to you", is just lip service. You have to get out in the field and reinforce the culture. It bothers me to use terms like safety culture, I hear it so much from management types, but it works. What bothers me more is to have management expectations come down like edicts and then get promptly ignored by line management. Now, to follow the rules to the letter,to the point where you begin to tediously repeat things , and folks begin to tune it out is not healthy either. But you can cover what needs to be covered succinctly. As an example,pre-plans/pre-job discussions: there are things you have to cover and often there are several crafts involved or there are multiple hazards to discuss.With us the pre plan is proceduralized. Not completely, but there are things you have to cover and check off that you did. Things like the rwp,relevant ops procedures, criticality guidelines if necessary,etc. I have heard management expectations, been in the same room with managers listening to this and nodding their heads,"this is what we expect you to do". Then they don't do it, or they do it for a while then it  goes away. A field presence can correct this. I believe the attitude in aggregate is set largely by top down management. This does not mean you have to swallow everything ,but it should bring down the recordables. And thats another subject,recordables vs. actually recorded.