Warrant Officer

[DLGN25]

This is a question that I have had for many years now.  I was trained in the nuclear power program and served two years on the USS Bainbridge, then turned down shore duty in Idaho, instead taking sea duty in the conventional Navy.  I found the conventional Navy more appealing then the orders I received for more sea duty aboard the USS Enterprise.  I requested, as a condition of re-enlistment, the Navy drop my nuclear designation, which of course they were not going to do.  The captain of the USS Decatur offered to recommend that I become a Warrant Officer, with his recommendation all I had to do was pass the E-7 test, and with that, he felt I would be out of it.

I mulled this over for awhile, then declined the offer because I could not be guaranteed a non-nuclear posting in the future.

Does, or has the nuclear navy ever had warrant officers? 

[G-reg]

The Assistant RadCon Officer (ARCO) onboard a sub tender is frequently a Warrant.

[JustinHEMI05]

I have met two or three.

Justin

[Gamecock]

We have a lot of Warrant Officers.

[radshipper]

I was also on the Bainbridge, during the 70's.  We had a CWO in M Div, don't remember his exact duties, but he qualified EOOW very quickly. 

[DLGN25]

Thanks guys, I left the Bainbridge in 1970, no nuclear trained Warrant Officers at the time that I knew of.  I guess if I had chosen the Warrant Officer route rather then mustering out in 1972, I would have become a Warrant Officer on the Enterprise, and the only thing that would have changed, is where I bunked and ate.  Now that would have been interesting.

Oh well, some things are just not meant to have been...

[Gamecock]

I was also on the Bainbridge, during the 70's.  We had a CWO in M Div, don't remember his exact duties, but he qualified EOOW very quickly. 

When I was on IKE, we had one who was the RM Technical Assistant (RMTA) and one who was the RCTA.

I also just checked the selection message from this year....we made 6 this year, and 4 last year.

http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/26D77574-E84F-44C8-86FE-08766C670CD4/0/NAV09056.txt
http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/20D712DF-1D67-4FB1-8C9A-DD0C27762427/0/NAV08053.txt


You can look up the results from other years back through 2000 also using this link....
http://www.npc.navy.mil/NPC/Templates/MessageListing.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7b49E41492-CF3E-463A-801A-D00FDB89DBBE%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fReferenceLibrary%2fMessages%2f&NRCACHEHINT=Guest

[Gamecock]

Really?  How many?  A lot compared to what?  Some figures would be nice to back that claim up.

The fact of the matter is (from what I recall) quite to the contrary.

Jason,

Feel free to click on the links in my above post.

You can get numbers and names if you desire.

Cheers,
GC

[Gamecock]

Well after some research we have this:

1.  The Air Force no longer has CWO's.
2.  The Navy percentage for CWO's to active duty personnel are .46% ... therefore a fraction of a percent (my work below).

"I get 1,750 total CWO's in the Navy in 2003.  (Souce: http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=9214 )

I get 379,742 total Active duty Navy in 2003.  (Source: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004598.html )

So, the Navy had 0.46% CWO's in 2003."

Hardly a lot if you ask me Sir.

Perhaps "a lot" was a reach.  I guess I should have said we have "a few." 

Cheers,
GC

[withroaj]

Perhaps "a lot" was a reach.  I guess I should have said we have "a few." 

Cheers,
GC

Regardless of their numbers, I've seen the results of CWO's and LDO's putting some needed "stank" (coming from hands-on experience) on the operators' side of a discussion that makes it up to wardroom level.  The few I know/have known have made a great impact on their immediate domains in the community, and by proxy have made a great impact on the whole community.

Oh, boy... Here I go spouting the party line again... Seems like each passing month it gets worse and worse.  Sounds like it's getting to be time for me to seek other avenues of employment.

[NukeLDO]

Here are some stats from the FY10 Selection Board President:

2678 total applications received
443 selected = 17% selection rate (which in some rates gives you a better chance for promotion than the chief's board!)

In FY10 there were 282 enlisted to LDO selections
                          161 enlisted to CWO
In FY09 the numbers were 283 and 160 respectively

Of the 282 enlisted to LDO selects, 95 were PO1s
                                              184 were CPOs
                                                3 were SCPOs
Of the 161 CWO selects, 100 were CPOs
                                   58 were SCPOs
                                    3 were MCPOs

I think the question you are really asking is how many LDO/CWO billets are there?  I have that info specific to nuke billets somewhere, but it may take me a few days to dig it up.  As for total navy LDO/CWO billets, you'll need to find that number yourself.

[NukeLDO]

One other tidbit I just found in the community manager's brief...
  As of 2007, 20% of submarine officers are LDO/CWOs.  1016 of 4970.

[JustinHEMI05]

We had a nuke LDO on my boat. Cool guy. Of course, we were in the yards.

Justin

[NukeLDO]

The short answer is yes.  Every boat going into an extended maintenance avail gets a nuke LDO/CWO assigned about a year before enteringthe yards as an overhaul cooridnator.  Earns gold dophins, does the yard period, and usually stays on board up to POM cert.  The Navigation dept head can also be an LDO/CWO in the overhaul environment and stays on board for a while after the yards.  Almost all Div Os in new construction are nuke LDO/CWOs.

[JustinHEMI05]

Sounds about right for our LDO.

Justin

[Preciousblue1965]

I'm surprised that isn't just a Chief's job.  But, not totally surprised.

Well if you think about it, it kinda is a Chief doing the job, only a LDO/CWO comes with more weight(rankwise, not waistline wise) to throw around, per se.

[Preciousblue1965]

Well having had a CWO onboard my carrier when I was in, I do know one advantage of having a CWO over a CPO.  CWO's get to go to the wardroom during meals.  While it might not seem that big a deal, how often has idle dinner conversation become more than just idle dinner conversation.  Who knows what policy changes might get implemented between bites of beef yakisoba, Savory patato wedges, and butterscotch pudding.

[Gamecock]

That is not a compelling reason to have CWO's.  Why not let them marry one another ... making a point ... so banish the thought.  So what kind of power does a no longer Enlisted Chief have over a lower than JO Officer in the wardroom?

Either Navy Nukes are Technical Experts (as enlisted) or they are not.  Either we (enlisted) are ALL technical experts or we are not. 

This can be linked in the following thoughts:

Link:  Chief's caught CHEATING on the IKE.  Navy Nuke program isn't the same tough as nails program you can trust anymore.  Integrity violations are left in the program just like the regular navy.

So, we have a need now for an additional layer of protection.  Because the enlisted navy nukes are not capable of doing the job without Officer supervision now.  What better supervision than someone who is an Officer (not really) and and Enlisted man (not really).  Is this the thinking?

So, are we saying that Chief's and below can not be trusted by Officers now?  And, that they only trust a fellow Officer (albeit CWO)?

I'm trying to get a feel for the true reason.  Is it so they can stay in the Navy longer?

You guys are completely missing the boat on what a CWO is and what he does. 
1.  CWO are not lower on the totem pole then a JO.  The ones I served with were always the technical assistant to the Reactor Mechanical Assistant or the Reactor Controls Assistant.  Those guys were technical experts through and through.  They knew almost everything there was to know and had seen almost everything there was to see.  They do tough nuke jobs at sea almost without a break.  These guys have my utmost respect.  A CWO is every bit as much an officer as an Unrestricted Line Officer.  They just have a different job description.

2.  It has nothing to do with Chiefs and below not being trusted.

3.  It has nothing to do with allowing them to stay in the navy longer.

4.  CWO is different from LDO in that a CWO does not have to serve ten years as an officer to retire as an officer.  Therefore, it appeals to the more senior enlisted folks who might not otherwise consider becoming an LDO.

Cheers,
GC

[DLGN25]

Off all the things I learned in the Navy, this one stuck with me over the years, "While you can delegate authority, you cannot delegate responsibility".  The higher up you go, the more responsibility you have.  True, you usually have more people under you to do the job, and can delegate authority to those you command, but in the end, it is you who are ultimately held responsible.

The degree of responsibility held by a Chief or other enlisted is less then that held by a LDO or even a CWO.  With rank, comes responsibility not held by the ratings.  

Also, the use of LDO's in the 60's and 70's was pretty wide spread in the conventional fleet.  My OE Division officer (with dolphins) on the USS Decatur was one of two LDO's on board.  While it is true that officer positions were fairly easily filled in those years due to the draft, there was no longevity.  LDO's filled the gap and brought service experience to the lower tier of the office corps.  The Navy then was a whole lot larger then it is now.

[DLGN25]

Now that is a better explanation.  They don't trust the JO's with some positions that should be filled with a seasoned navy nuke.  So, instead of a Senior Officer Nuke they fill the position with a Senior NCO (now LDO/CWO). 

I still think it shouldn't just be a Chief only position then.  LDO/CWO positions could (and should) be filled from the entire Navy Nuke Enlisted group.  Let them qualify on knowledge and not pay-grade.

I was an ETR-5 RO in 1970, had four years in when transfered to the conventional Navy.  Within a month of reporting aboard the Decatur, my promotion to E-6 came through.  Even then, an E-6 in four was not all that common outside the NUKE Navy.  Anyway, I went from a follower to Leading Petty Officer in OE division with 18 or so souls suddenly my responsibility.  Let me tell you I was not ready for that change.  Leadership skills were not taught in NUKE school, nor were they taught in the NUKE fleet as I experienced it as an E-5.  I was able to succeed only with the guidance of my division officer and the chief.  NUKE power instilled in me, not a level of technical knowledge that exceeded the guys I now lead, heck, just a month ago I had no idea what a radio room or CIC looked like, and what did I know about TACAN, SPS-29 radar, LORAN, IFF, EW equipment, or the repeaters, or all of that equipment in the radio room and on the masts.  Outside of the SPS-10 I had not a clue.   But what I did know was the expectation of excellence I learned as a NUKE, and after a lot of effort, I was able to instill that same expectation in most of my division.

You can be the hottest RO (I was not) or the hottest reactor instrument technician (I was one of the better), but all those skills and knowledge do not prepare you for leading other men, and that is the reason they Navy looks to Chiefs for LDO's and CWO's, with time comes leadership experience. 

My view of the Navy at the end of my enlistment contract was worlds apart from what it was when I first stepped aboard Decatur.  In that two year tour in the conventional Navy, I learned more that helped me in later life then what the NUKE Navy taught me (other then striving for excellence).   While on Bainbridge, I too thought all NUKES should be CWO's, I was wrong.

[NukeLDO]

One other piece you are missing...an LDO/CWO is a URL.  As such, he can fill one of those billets.  Beyond the 6 year point, a regular URL officer is entitled to a significant chunk of change in annual bonuses (Engineer on a submarine gets an extra 25K+ per year on top of his LCDR salary and sea pay).  An LDO/CWO is not entitled to that same bonus, and is therefore a better deal financially. 
On a carrier, you can have two LTs standing OOD, doing the same job, and one is making quite a bit more than the other simply because one had the misfortune to be an enlisted guy first.
As to the rest of your conversation, isn't it enough to say "tradition?"  I mean, why crackerjacks....13 buttons...you're kidding me right?   Ever stood in formation on a windy day and had that flap beat you to death?  And a dixie cup?  Although they'd like you to believe it can be used as a flotation device, I haven't heard a WWII story yet where the dixie cup saved someone swimming in the South Pacific after being torpedoed.  And who could remember how to tie that damn kerchief?  Tradition.

[HydroDave63]

The dry cleaners outside of NTC San Diego even sold pre-rolled neckerchiefs! 

[DLGN25]

Leadership?  How could you be a good PO and not have leadership?  The ARMY places high school graduates into this position.

Navy specs for CWO:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/navypromotions/a/navwarrant.htm

Notice this:
The bold is for LDO's.  Not CWO's.  And, even then it says 'managerial skills'.  Every Chief has those skills or they are a bad Chief.  So, what special potion does a CWO/LDO have to drink then?  None if you ask me.  You are either the right material for the position or you are not.  You admit you were not.  Fine.  Others would argue that they were.  And, I'd agree with them.  The Navy has it wrong.

LDO I can understand E-7 (board eligible or above) is a good idea.  CWO is in my opinion what all enlisted nukes are capable of or and deserving of in terms of rank.  Just like the Army does it.  If you want to be a CWO all you need to be is a 'technical expert'.  You say that ain't so.  I disagree.  Why is it then that once a Navy Nuke always a Navy Nuke?  You've been trained for a specific technical trade.  So, in fact you are an expert in that field.

I tried to go to the Army as a CWO Aviator.  The Navy turned me down every time telling me that I was a CREO 6 rate and that they would not let me do that.  They prevented me from bettering myself.  They told me that I was to valuable to let go.  That doesn't square with being less than a 'technical expert' in my book.

But, maybe I'm biased.  I think the Chief's should be the top of the heap experts if we are going to delineate between Officer and Enlisted.

Right now I am chuckling just thinking what an engine room full of CWOs would be like.  Think about it.  Who would clean the bulges, paint, polish, and clean?  Or how about who out ranked who?  Would everyone say "yes sir" or call each other "mister"?  LOL

Anyway, I digress.

When I went through nuclear training, it cost more, and took longer (2+years) to get a trained reactor operator on watch then an aviator.  Perhaps that is the reason they Navy holds those who volunteered for NUKES so dear.  The only way I got out of nuclear power, was to leave the service.  

Now back to leadership.

Tell me how a PO in a RO division on a cruiser, where there were a few E-4's, most were E-5 coming out of prototype training, more E-6's then assignments for them, and the same for the Chiefs, had an opportunity to learn leadership skills, let alone practice them.   They didn't.  Standing two 4 hour watches on a reactor, whether underway or in port is not the same as a LPO of an OE division, or any other conventional navy or nuclear division for that matter.  Rapid advancement in the nuclear program at the time I was in, was a way to pay the sailors more as other compensation methods were not readily available.  While rapid advancement worked for the nuclear fleet, it did not, IMO do well for the conventional fleet.

Oh, by the way, not liking to beat my own drum, but I need to address your arrogance implying that I was not right for the job.  Let it be known that I was recommended for E-6 while an RO on Bainbridge, when I was scheduled for shore duty at Idaho Falls, I declined the transfer instead opting for sea duty on the Decatur.  Before leaving Decatur, after returning from a WestPac tour, six Navy Achievement Medals were awarded to the ship, 2 to engineering, and 4 to OE division.  One to my division officer, one each to the lead POs in radar and communications, and the other to me.  Four of these awards going to OE division was unheard of.  I attributed the awards to my learned leadership, and managerial skills and the nuclear training to strive for excellence in myself and in others as the reason.  I left the Navy a 4.0 sailor after declining a recommendation for CWO.

Finally, I agree with the Army's use of CWOs for helicopters, they are after all filling command positions are they not?  A whole lot different then an RO as I remembered the position, duties, and responsibilities.

I hope in the end, you found contentment.

[NukeLDO]

You untied yours? 

Absolutely not....but after about 7 years, it was looking pretty ragged.  Bought a new one, broke out the Bluejackets Manual, tied the new one, and superglued it!  

[DLGN25]

Absolutely not....but after about 7 years, it was looking pretty ragged.  Bought a new one, broke out the Bluejackets Manual, tied the new one, and superglued it!  

Mine still has the metal clip on it.