All ELT's, please do not be offended, for I am only seeking to be informed.

[Zog]

I just want to say, an ELT was the only person I ever saw insert a glass stirring rod int an unmentionable (and potentially very painful) place.  Therefore, if they are the best of the Navy Nukes...what the hell does that say about the rest of us?

I walked in on an ELT doing that same thing and using an inspection mirror in ERF. Wonder if it was the same guy?

[playswithairplanes]

Maybe in the rest of the navy working hard was the way to make upper rate.  Not on my boat or submarine tender.  I have met a couple of good chiefs, but I am being very honest here, most of the people in khakis I worked for except for 3 chiefs, 1 captain, and many good JOs who eventually got out were terrible.  Not just dheads, that too, but just terrible leaders with their heads so far up the rest of the chain of command's a$$ it was laughable, and sad.  Yes this was my opinion and the opinion of almost every other blueshirt on the vessels, but they were so bad it was eerie.  A buddy of mine, who was a great ET (I was an ELT and not a very good mechanic), ended up working for an admiral on the tender while he was convalescing for bone cancer.  The admiral told him frankly, this organization is going downhill, get out now even though you only have 10 years until retirement.  The only time I saw a large proportion of people that desered the rank they wore was when I met a few of the crew of the NR1 when I was in drydock with them.  Those guys were worthy.  Maybe I just got the wrong commands.....

I would say my experience mirrored yours. Of the 3 boats, and two tenders I was on only 2 COs out of the lot that I would work for again. The rest I wouldn't go out of my way to piss on if they were on fire. As for Chiefs, there were maybe 2 or 3 worthwhile, the rest were just garbage. Leadership is more than just having fancy jewelry on your collar, sadly not many understand that. The Navy has a strange way of putting people with no common sense in charge. It's not just now either. Early in WW2 the submarine force had the same problem. I would hope it wouldn't take a war of the same caliber to make the changes... but it probably will.

[DDMurray]

I'm not interested in CPO bashing discussions.  I will say two things:

1. Leadership problems exist everywhere, including civilian nuclear power.
2.  I noticed that two of the posters who brought up poor Chiefs served on tenders.  It was my experience in the navy that 2 types of people went to tender duty:  (A) Those who wanted to be in a geographical area, or (B) They couldn't make it through instructor screening and they wanted off their boat. 

If your manning is from the lower performing population of the navy, then it seems natural that CPOs there would be on the lower end of the great leadership scale.  I sincerely do not mean this as a slight because I believe that everyone serves a critical role in the nuclear navy, and those most nukes call poor performers are still a cut above the rest of the navy.

Flame away.

[drayer54]

I'm not interested in CPO bashing discussions.  I will say two things:
1. Leadership problems exist everywhere, including civilian nuclear power.

I would say my experience mirrored yours. Of the 3 boats, and two tenders I was on only 2 COs out of the lot that I would work for again. The rest I wouldn't go out of my way to piss on if they were on fire. As for Chiefs, there were maybe 2 or 3 worthwhile, the rest were just garbage. Leadership is more than just having fancy jewelry on your collar, sadly not many understand that.

There good officers and bad officers. There are good chiefs and there are bad chiefs. There are good LPO's and there are bad LPO's. We have good branch heads and bad branch heads. We have have leaders and we have pseudo leaders. This happens on every level in and outside of the community. Opinions do vary and some styles work differently for different people.

We learn from the good and we learn from the bad. I think we all shape our own vision and approach to this based on our experience. I am sure that everyone on here can name a great leader they have worked for and then name one that is laughable. I think it is wise to be hesitant in criticising leadership before really understanding that persons viewpoint and responsibilities. Sometimes even after that analysis we are still critical and that is OK.  I would not isolate bad leadership to a certain mess, wardroom, or office branch.I think Murray trying to throw the bad chiefs all to non training positions or imply that they are any less worthy by having orders there is also ridiculous and far off base. I also think it is funny that when people describe RO's/Cheng's, they usually describe them as either terrible or awesome. Very rare that I hear of a Ehh one or a reasonably ok one. Usually one way or the other.

Also, if everyone wants to come on here and name off the bad people they have worked for, this thread will get mighty long and pointless.

[namlive]

From what I gather from this thread:  ELT's are not God. They are simply qualified to stand the watch. ( Except one guy fascinated with a glass rod. )

[Cycoticpenguin]

From what I gather from this thread:  ELT's are not God. They are simply qualified to stand the watch. ( Except one guy fascinated with a glass rod. )

strangely familiar to every other rate in the navy...

[drayer54]

From what I gather from this thread:  ELT's are not God. They are simply qualified to stand the watch. ( Except one guy fascinated with a glass rod. )

Every rate on every ship seems to have a "that guy with the glass rod" 

[DDMurray]

I think Murray trying to throw the bad chiefs all to non training positions or imply that they are any less worthy by having orders there is also ridiculous and far off base.

Do you work for Fox News or MSNBC?  My remark was that if you did tender duty you were more likely to encounter what most would consider below average leaders.  I tried to expound on that and say they were not less worthy.  I believe there are reasons instructors have a better chance of success when they go back to sea:

1.  They work with a lot of hot-runners.
2.  They are required to keep their plant and/or theoretical knowledge at a higher level than someone who goes to TRF/Tender/Recruiting/NRMD, so they have a better chance of succeeding when they go back to sea because they are not having to re-learn basic nuke stuff.

Does this mean that all instructors are great?  No
Does this mean that all non-instructors are below average? Of course not.

[drayer54]

Do you work for Fox News or MSNBC?  My remark was that if you did tender duty you were more likely to encounter what most would consider below average leaders.  I tried to expound on that and say they were not less worthy.  I believe there are reasons instructors have a better chance of success when they go back to sea:
1.  They work with a lot of hot-runners.
2.  They are required to keep their plant and/or theoretical knowledge at a higher level than someone who goes to TRF/Tender/Recruiting/NRMD, so they have a better chance of succeeding when they go back to sea because they are not having to re-learn basic nuke stuff.
Does this mean that all instructors are great?  No
Does this mean that all non-instructors are below average? Of course not

Let's keep this as accurate as any other no spin zone .  The point of my comment and I think it is even applicable as a response to your reply is that you are going to have the good and the bad everywhere. I wouldn't discount the abilities of any sailor who goes there because of the command, and I don't think you are. The other commands do offer unique experiences and some of those are very valuable to take back to the ship. I do remember recruiters taking forever to requalify, but after the first few months on board it does come back and everyone is usually back to being competent in the plants again (assuming they were the first time around)...


The part of the comment that made me "Flame away" was that you said the reason he may have had bad leadership is because he was on a tender. I think it is hard to generalize bad leadership to a certain command type when it is going to occur everywhere.
Full Disclosure) I have never even seen a tender and have minimal knowledge of them. I would also choose to work at Fox because of the ample amount of hot airheads .

[hamsamich]

I wasn't chief bashing by the way, just saying the PATH to leadership in the Navy seemed to involve alot of butt-kissing and boot licking and good-old-boy type stuff.   Could you make it on hard work too, yep.  But that didn't seem to be the norm from what I saw.  Plus with alot of the cream getting out to make more money elsewhere, there wasn't as big a pile too choose from, obviously.

[darkmatter]

I was an ELT of the 74-04 class----which explains why ELTs are considered somewhat wacked-out nut jobs depending on who you asked----- I saw instructors who pipetted reactor coolant by mouth. The first counter-scaler I used was a binary one with rows of lights you had to count the numbered lights (2,4,8,16,etc.)to get your count rate. I learned my physics on a slide-rule in B.C. (Before Computers). When I got out of the Nuke Navy Subs. where as an ELT we did what the commercial plants used five crafts for. Ops, Mech, I&C, Chem, and Janitor. I did just one fifth the work in the Navy for five times the pay. I had a WoooooHoooo moment and never looked back. So the answer to the original question is still----depends on who you ask.

[Cycoticpenguin]

I wasn't chief bashing by the way, just saying the PATH to leadership in the Navy seemed to involve alot of butt-kissing and boot licking and good-old-boy type stuff.   Could you make it on hard work too, yep.  But that didn't seem to be the norm from what I saw.  Plus with alot of the cream getting out to make more money elsewhere, there wasn't as big a pile too choose from, obviously.

Umm, welcome to the planet earth? You will hard pressed to make it anywhere, military or not, with out sufficient tact (some call it brown nosing, but theres a distinct difference here. No one likes an !$#-kisser...), hard work, and that "good ole boy" type stuff usually involves nepotism or separating your self through hard work. You can be given anything in this world, what you do with it ......

[Smooth Operator]

Anyone "stuck" in ERF for six years was failed by his LPO, his LCPO, his EDMC, his DH, his command, and the NNPP,...

Well when you have a lazy/selfish LELT (doesn't want to do the extra check chem or risk an ORSE comment) who convinces the CO that you can't trust seconday chemists (MMs qualified SG chemistry)....you pretty much sequester ELTs in ERF.

If you are min staffing on ELTs, you don't get much time away from ERF.

[JustinHEMI05]

Yup, under my watch as LELT on my boat, ELTs moved out and stood ERUL and ERS as well. We saw ourselves as part of Mdiv.

Justin

[Marlin]

Yup, under my watch as LELT on my boat, ELTs moved out and stood ERUL and ERS as well. We saw ourselves as part of Mdiv.

Justin

  The same on my boats, in port and in the yards the duty ELT and one other usually the LELT did Chem/RadCon the rest of the ELTs worked in M-Div for the day and on the primary plant if needed so we could do our own RadCon coverage.
  Sub and surface Nuke culture was worlds apart.

[hamsamich]

I agree charlie murphy, no need to be condescending.  I was countering a different post.  Stuff is obvious to me also.  Exsists everywhere, not just the navy.

[SubSailor99]

(I am only speaking about my experience on Submarines)

The argument about being an ELT is the best rate could go on forever, but it boils down to the individual's experience.  On submarines, when I was in a year ago, that experience was determined by the M-div chief's views.  On my first boat the M-div Chief saw RL division as a separate division and allowed the LELT to run it.  We would do all our required work and then would go do mechanic work if there was time.  Life was sweet or as sweet it can get working on a sub.  On my second boat the M-div Chief didn't even see ELT he just saw 5 additional mechanics.  So the LELT would send an ELT to go do something like the chemical inventory and the chief would find him and send him to go do some M-div maintenance instead.  The end result would be that you would spend all day doing M-div work and when M-div got to leave, you got to stay late to do your work.  It made life pretty miserable. 

I hear life on board surface ships is pretty sweet no matter what rate you're in.  Fresh milk, fresh air, all the soda you can drink, and 10+ section duty, pretty sweet deal

[JustinHEMI05]

Don't forget McDonald's on board.

[Smooth Operator]

I suspect we are saying the same thing,...

We are, just adding a why stream to how and ELT can find himself stuck in ERF.

[drayer54]

(I am only speaking about my experience on Submarines)
I hear life on board surface ships is pretty sweet no matter what rate you're in.  Fresh milk, fresh air, all the soda you can drink, and 10+ section duty, pretty sweet deal

Hahaha someone lied to you. I did a deployment last year with no ice, terrible milk and rarely filled soda machines.
The fresh air part is true though. There is nothing more refreshing than inhaling some fresh jet exhaust when it is the only thing you are getting in your ventillation and making everyones eyes water..... It's better than coffee Don't sub plants have a/c?
10+ section duty is true if you work in the air wing. Most nukes however are not working the air wing . My last few years on the ship varied from 4 section liberty to 3/4 section duty. We saw 6 section in 2006, but that was a dream fantasy for the rest of my time onboard.
It's most definetely a pretty sweet deal. I better stop, I'm getting homesick....

Don't forget McDonald's on board.

My carrier had a starbucks in the aft mess decks too, the forward mess decks had the mcdonalds with the play area for the air wing and topsiders who had nothing better to do...

[Cycoticpenguin]

Hahaha someone lied to you. I did a deployment last year with no ice, terrible milk and rarely filled soda machines.
The fresh air part is true though. There is nothing more refreshing than inhaling some fresh jet exhaust when it is the only thing you are getting in your ventillation and making everyones eyes water..... It's better than coffee Don't sub plants have a/c?
10+ section duty is true if you work in the air wing. Most nukes however are not working the air wing . My last few years on the ship varied from 4 section liberty to 3/4 section duty. We saw 6 section in 2006, but that was a dream fantasy for the rest of my time onboard.
It's most definetely a pretty sweet deal. I better stop, I'm getting homesick....

My carrier had a starbucks in the aft mess decks too, the forward mess decks had the mcdonalds with the play area for the air wing and topsiders who had nothing better to do...

you forgot the swimming pool. We were 3 section the majority of the time anyway. No clue where the 10 section duty thing comes in from O.o  we had a good deal, we had a fully stocked ships store most of the time, and at least marginally edible food on most nights. Quality of life on a carrier wasnt THAT bad, speaking simply from the availability of things we took for granted (internet, stores, gyms, cold berthings, getting mail whenever the cod was available, id never compare what we went through to a submariner.)

[JustinHEMI05]

Don't forget McDonalds!

[drayer54]

Don't forget McDonalds!

I didn't! It was one of the cool McDonald's with the play areas too.... (for the air wing, think line control on a no fly day)

[JustinHEMI05]

LMAO

[SubSailor99]

Don't sub plants have a/c?

We do, but thats mostly to keep the electronics cool (and dry) and to keep the ERUL stay time over 6 hours so you can actually stand a full watch.  Although it gets pretty nice in bearthing too  provided your not stuck in a rack with the air blowing straight on you.