Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake

[stormgoalie]

More of a voice of reason about the issues in Japan and their effect here: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/262156/japan-nuclear-update-iain-murray

[techtoolong]

My prayers to Japan's Nuclear Workers. God Bless Them

[Xenon_Free]

I also found one that gives them their due.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/japanese-nuclear-plant-workers-emerging-as-heroic-figures-in-tragedy

[Cycoticpenguin]

I think the updates are pretty detailed, depending on where you are looking. There are far too many parameters that they can't possibly report them all.... assuming they even have any parameters to report. There is only certain instrumentation that would be operable after a station black out.

All I need/want to know is reactor level, reactor pressure, containment temperature, containment level and containment pressure. At this point, those are the important parameters in a BWR. The only one I am not getting some sore of trend on regularly is containment temperature, but knowing pressure is just as good, temperature would just be "nice to know."

System status... nothing is working. What more do you need to know about that?

Justin

Where are you getting your info if you dont mind. All I have seen has been "its broken, this and that arent working" with no real explanation on the extent of the damage. Even from your posts, you seem to be speculating a lot with simple information they are providing. It ultimately makes zero difference to me at the end of the day.

[Xenon_Free]

Where are you getting your info if you dont mind. All I have seen has been "its broken, this and that arent working" with no real explanation on the extent of the damage. Even from your posts, you seem to be speculating a lot with simple information they are providing. It ultimately makes zero difference to me at the end of the day.

Well, I know you were asking Justin, not me and I do not know where he has been getting his information from.  I do know where I have been getting my information on current plant status from and most of those links have been posted in this thread (nei, iaea, tepco news, bbc.co.uk, JAIF [thanks Justin], and yes CNN and the rest).  I have taken what dribbles out and combined it with 20 years of experience in operating nuclear power plants.  I have been licensed by the NRC for 8 years - 3 of those as an SRO.  I have the EXACT SAME containment (Mark I) and very nearly the same equipment (somewhat newer).  While no one outside or inside the plants knows exactly what has occurred, with the amount of knowledge, training and experience many on this board have we are probably in the best position to give an idea of the "goings on".  Does all of that make me an expert... Yes, yes it does.

As to why there is not more detailed information, I think that has been amply covered.

Smite Away,
XF

[JustinHEMI05]

What Xe said.

I and he and others have posted many links CM.

Are you reading the thread?

JAIF is what I am using most.

Justin

PS Xe good to have another SRO on board. I licensed at Peach Bottom and am now going for my PWR at Beaver Valley.

[Neutron Whisperer]

http://www.truth-out.org/tokyo-electric-build-us-nuclear-plants-the-no-bs-info-japans-disastrous-nuclear-operators68457

Tokyo Electric to Build US Nuclear Plants: The No BS Info on Japan's Disastrous Nuclear Operators

...
The administration, just months ago, asked Congress to provide a $4 billion loan guarantee for two new nuclear reactors to be built and operated on the Gulf Coast of Texas - by TEPCO and local partners. As if the Gulf hasn't suffered enough. Here are the facts about TEPCO and the industry you haven't heard on CNN:

The failure of emergency systems at Japan's nuclear plants comes as no surprise to those of us who have worked in the field.

Nuclear plants the world over must be certified for what is called "SQ" or "Seismic Qualification." That is, the owners swear that all components are designed for the maximum conceivable shaking event, be it from an earthquake or an exploding Christmas card from al-Qaeda.

The most inexpensive way to meet your SQ is to lie. The industry does it all the time. The government team I worked with caught them once, in 1988, at the Shoreham plant in New York. Correcting the SQ problem at Shoreham would have cost a cool billion, so engineers were told to change the tests from "failed" to "passed."

The company that put in the false safety report? Stone & Webster, now the nuclear unit of Shaw Construction, which will work with TEPCO to build the Texas plant. Lord help us.
...

This thread is growing fast.  Sorry if this has been previously posted.  Can anyone in the industry say if this guy is full of it or not?

[Cycoticpenguin]

Well, I know you were asking Justin, not me and I do not know where he has been getting his information from.  I do know where I have been getting my information on current plant status from and most of those links have been posted in this thread (nei, iaea, tepco news, bbc.co.uk, JAIF [thanks Justin], and yes CNN and the rest).  I have taken what dribbles out and combined it with 20 years of experience in operating nuclear power plants.  I have been licensed by the NRC for 8 years - 3 of those as an SRO.  I have the EXACT SAME containment (Mark I) and very nearly the same equipment (somewhat newer).  While no one outside or inside the plants knows exactly what has occurred, with the amount of knowledge, training and experience many on this board have we are probably in the best position to give an idea of the "goings on".  Does all of that make me an expert... Yes, yes it does.

As to why there is not more detailed information, I think that has been amply covered.

Smite Away,
XF

No smite from me dude. Consider yourself on my list for sme  of course that means you get to answer my annoying questions from time to time.  

I guess its my nubliness that prevents me from. Getting the same picture you guys do. Im tryi g to relate fukushima to river bend and the how's and whys, but I know that's not the most feasible thing to do.

Ill check out that jaif thing when I get home. Thanks.



Dead serious about the question thing ask justin and mikey haha

[PJMcG]

Anybody see this drivel from ABC:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fukushima-mark-nuclear-reactor-design-caused-ge-scientist/story?id=13141287

I responded with this, but ran out of characters:

1.  The story is the human tragedy of thousands dead, injured, homeless, lost, hungry, ruined, and devastated by a 9.0 quake followed by a tsunami.  

a very distant second

2.  Japan relies on nuclear power for about 30% of its energy, plant operators and engineers are experiencing cooling issues and have elevated radiation levels at the Fukushima Daiichi.  11 plants that were automatically shutdown (scrammed) as designed due to high seismic activity.

Now there are problems with potential for serious consequences, but let's catch our breath and let the professionals go to work.  Most in the press have no idea what they're talking about.  This article is just another of far too many examples.

1.  The reactor is not a Mark I - Unit 1 is a BWR-3, Units 2 - 6 are BWR-4.

2.  Units 1 - 5 have Mark I containments.

3. Unit 6 has a Mark II containment.

4.  The problem is not the containment, they are functioning as designed.  The only reported exception to that is the explosion on March 15 in Unit 2 - and that possible damage is not confirmed.

5.  The hydrogen explosions in units 1 & 3 caused blow out panels in the reactor buildings to do what they are designed to do - blow out.  Look at the drawings of a Mark 1 reactor building and the before and after photographs - the exposed iron at the top of the building with the missing panels is too precise not to be design behavior.  The hydrogen explosions in units 1 & 3 did not breach their containments.

6.  The problem is related to a sustained station blackout due to nearly coincident design basis accidents.  The plants survived the 9.0 earth quake.  The three operating units at Fukushima Daiichi shutdown as designed due to excess seismic activity; the diesels started and powered the emergency core cooling systems (EECS).  Then the tsunami wiped out the diesels (exactly how is not clear yet; some have said the fuel tanks were destroyed, in time we'll learn more)

Then I ran out of space.  Some of my responses were addressing some comments posted by readers.  I sent my response to the editors at ABC News.  Over the week I wrote to Fox News after they got their facts wrong.  Last night I wrote to O'Reilly, his fair and balanced reporting had two guest 'experts' an MD who founded a Chernobyl society (noble work, but not relevant to Japan's nuclear problems) and a journalist who formerly covered the nuclear industry.

I urge all of you to respond to media that don't get the facts right.  I'm furious with talking heads breathlessly whipping up a frenzy and they can't even get their facts straight.  That is the easy part, design debates, engineering trade-offs, public policy, and other stuff is hard.  Respectfully and professionally correct them on their errors.

And kudos to CNN - they interviewed one of my professors (emeritus) from the UC Berkeley Nuclear Engineering Department; Donald Olander; one of the leading authorities on nuclear fuel design, transient behavior, and nuclear materials.  He also happens to be a brilliant man, a great teacher, and a kind human being.

PJ

[Loffy Muffin]

[

color=blue]Does all of that make me an expert... Yes, yes it does.[/color]

Xe and who ever else is familiar with this design:

How difficult it is to work on the plant?  It seems the on site personal has not responded in any meaningful way to place the plant in a safe condition.  Is the Reactor emergency cooling system accessible?  Are there "easy, possible, any means to tap" into the emergency cooling system? Are the pump/motors easily replaced?  They are flanged in or welded?  Is most of the switchgear off the lower level so it should not have been totally saturated?  I would estimate the emergency cooling pumps would be small to minimize battery drain...

Once you are outside the design parameters, and the op's management has declared a site emergency, does that give the engineers free reign to modify/fix/replace/remove as needed?

Doesn't appear the site is getting much help from corporate HQ.  They should have a full staff of design engineers, maintenance, and management staff to help the situation.  If they do, it doesn't seem like they are a hell of a lot.  The site looks like the are just running around reacting to problems instead of getting in front of them.

[Xenon_Free]

I will preface all comments with the following:  I have never worked or been inside a foreign nuclear power plant, I am not familiar with Japanese regulations, and I certainly do not speak for any plant, company nor the industry here in America.  So, all that being said, this is how it would work here.

10 CFR 50.54 x and y give an SRO all the authority he needs to make any decision regarding the actions of a facility to address an emergency (CFR - Code of Federal regulations).  There are also provisions regarding the federal government, in cases of national emergencies, providing direction - the SRO is still responsible for any actions taken... just part of the responsibility.

There are literally several hundred if not thousands (globally) of support people working on these problems - it is not a lack of knowledge or people it is a complete lack of options.  Can a pump be spliced into and provided power – yes I believe that could be done.  Could a pump be replaced – not likely – no power for cranes.  If there is leakage on piping could it be welded – early on yes, now, no – H2 buildup in the reactor building has made this a very hazardous option.

The problem with any of these options is when an emergency like this is occurring people aren't just running around with some good ideas and a wrench.  There is a command structure, there are teams of personnel who need to be briefed - teams consisting of Radiological Technicians for monitoring dose, electricians, mechanics, operators and others.  Some teams for assessing the plant condition, some for fixing it, some for damage control.  These teams can not just get to every area in the plant without understanding the radiological conditions as well as the numerous other hazards that exist now.  The teams need equipment and materials to perform their functions, these must be obtained.    There is no AC power, there is no installed equipment that will help them right now that is not DC or diesel driven (thinking of fire pumps).  Their EDG's are not available, many of their switchgear locations are outside of the reactor building (I'm guessing but our Reactor Building only contains 480V and below) so that seems good – but you have to remember the Tsunami may have impacted them.  The Reactor Building is waterproof but the Turbine Building is probably not.

The difficulties are hard to explain to someone outside of the industry, but that is what I've got.

XF

[dave in St. Louis]

So...

Basically, these brave people were screwed as soon as the EDGs essentially disappeared and they are now trying to fix the unfixable.

[TWillis]

From IAEA earlier today...40 R ain't from radon

Japan Earthquake Update (15 March 2011, 11:25 UTC)
Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant Update
Radiation Dose Rates Observed at Site

The Japanese authorities have informed the IAEA that the following radiation dose rates have been observed on site at the main gate of the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant.

At 00:00 UTC on 15 March a dose rate of 11.9 millisieverts (mSv) per hour was observed. Six hours later, at 06:00 UTC on 15 March a dose rate of 0.6 millisieverts (mSv) per hour was observed.

These observations indicate that the level of radioactivity has been decreasing at the site.

As reported earlier, a 400 millisieverts (mSv) per hour radiation dose observed at Fukushima Daiichi occurred between Units 3 and 4. This is a high dose-level value, but it is a local value at a single location and at a certain point in time. The IAEA continues to confirm the evolution and value of this dose rate. It should be noted that because of this detected value, non-indispensible staff was evacuated from the plant, in line with the Emergency Response Plan, and that the population around the plant is already evacuated.

About 150 persons from populations around the Daiichi site have received monitoring for radiation levels. The results of measurements on some of these people have been reported and measures to decontaminate 23 of them have been taken. The IAEA will continue to monitor these developments.

Evacuation of the population from the 20 kilometre zone is continuing.

The Japanese have asked that residents out to a 30 km radius to take shelter indoors. Japanese authorities have distributed iodine tablets to the evacuation centres but no decision has yet been taken on their administration.

[Xenon_Free]

So...

Basically, these brave people were screwed as soon as the EDGs essentially disappeared and they are now trying to fix the unfixable.

Well, no not at all.  You see we operate with a heirarchy of procedures, to address the spectrum of operational parameters.
Normal Operating procedures - everything's normal
Abnormal Operating Procedures - something is wrong but it is relatively minor but there is no challenge to key plant parameters, requires immediate attention
Emergency Operating Procedures - One of our key plant parameters is not normal and requires immediate attention
Severe Accident Guidelines – Something is very wrong with one or more of our key plant parameters and every single normal method of controlling it has failed (this is where Fukushima is now)
And lastly we have,  Extreme Damage Mitigation
These procedures have completely new and potentially hazardous methods for minimizing the impact to areas outside the plant.  You have given up any control of the plant but there are still actions that can be taken to lessen the impact.

Keep in mind that, while not an oath, our mission – every single person in nuclear power from management on down to the plant cleaners – is to protect the health and safety of the public in every way.  We produce electricity but that is a by-product, protecting your safety is absolutely number one.  I truly hope you believe this, I can say it no clearer.

Let's also keep in mind that we have an awful lot of crafty engineers, designers, operators and maintenance personnel coupled with true leaders that can still pull this one out.  I still have faith.

XF

PS - this is not aimed at people who work in nuclear power, you already know all of this.

[Loffy Muffin]

The difficulties are hard to explain to someone outside of the industry, but that is what I've got

.

I currently support nuclear steam turbine work as the senior project manager for a major steam turbine OEM doing steam path retro fits..ie EPU.  I have mostly fossil, gas, and manufacturing (in the 90's when nuke was on life support).  I was a swabbie where I cleaned up most of the time and then stood a nuke watch in my spare time.  Much simpler plants to be sure.

Before I pass any judgement, I just needed to know the constraints the people  have to work under.  
To me, it looks like they are totally incompetent.  At every level.  I would expect EDG's to be Helo'd in.  Plus, Parts, pipes, motors, pumps, power cables.  The weather has been perfect.  They have multiple plants right next to them for parts.  Tokyo is a hours helo away.  They have a large support staff to get the site anything they want.  I see nothing being flown in, I see nothing being staged, I see no recovery plan. I see nothing that makes me think they know what they are doing (and the voting general public see's the same thing).  HQ has access to world resources.

No cranes?  I use a gas powered fork truck, or move a EDG into place, strip out the MCC if water damaged, and tie into my critical loads. Or I manual haul them with chain falls.   Shorted?  I strip out the bus work, find the short, dry it out/fix it, or jumper around it.  Worst case, I put my diesel to the motor and power it directly.  hard wire it in.  wrong Voltage?  I rip the old pump/motor out, have a pump and skid already to put in place, and install it. Pipe damaged? cut it out and weld in another. or patch it.  or bypass it.  or rig/manufacture new.
They sat there and watched the expended fuel tank go dry when they have an ocean 100 yards away?  No one can figure out how to move water from point a to b in 4 days?  So now it catches on fire and it make the industry look like a bunch of clowns that don't know what they are doing.

They had 3 days to respond to get in front of the problems and it appears they did nothing.  
It should have seen a bee hive of activity over the weekend with EDG lighting up the night as fitters, welders, electricians work repairs in perfect weather. Maybe the Japan nuke industry is run by the government because usually you only see such extreme incompetency in a gov operation.

[Xenon_Free]

@Mr. Muffin

You should check into flights out there, they could surely use someone as singularly capable as you.  Don't forget to pack your cape.

XF

[hamsamich]

Unit 4 fp fuel is on fire again....been for awhile.

[remer]

Unit 4 fp fuel is on fire again....been for awhile.

From the NEI:

Tokyo Electric Power Co. said that an oil leak in a cooling water pump at Unit 4 was the cause of a fire that burned for approximately 140 minutes. The fire was not in the spent fuel pool, as reported by several media outlets. Unit 4 was in a 105-day-long maintenance outage at the time of the earthquake and there is no fuel in the reactor.

[Loffy Muffin]

My cape?  that is funny.  I guess the problem is "too hard".  I think the public having to flee the area thinks it is funny too because people that are paid to solve problems can't do their jobs.

See, there is nothing special about what I just described.  In a paper mill (and other similar plants) , this is standard weekend stuff to keep the mill running.  Of course, when the millwright didn't complete a weld the problem didn't extend pass the mill. But this plant should be in "paper mill" mode.  

Yeah,  I think they should just keep on doing what they are doing and eventually the core will cool down.  After  3 explosions all caught on tape, 2 completely trashed reactors, fire in expended fuel tank..no, two fires.  radiation releases.  High radiation alarms.  Contaminating an aircraft carrier 100 miles off shore.  Possible breach in the primary containment.  Plant looks like a yard sale.  Letting fuel run out of the EDG's.  The only thing we are missing is benny hill running around.  

[hamsamich]

fp means fuel pool, check my post bleyse.

Reuters - Experts say spent fuel rods in a cooling pool at the No. 4 reactor could be exposed by the fire and spew more radiation into the atmosphere. Operator Tokyo Electric Power said it was considering using a helicopter to dump boric acid, a fire retardant, on the facility

maybe the fuel pool isn't on fire, but it looks like it is being affected.

[Pman52]

Before I pass any judgement, I just needed to know the constraints the people  have to work under.  

Too late, you already have.

To me, it looks like they are totally incompetent.  At every level.  I would expect EDG's to be Helo'd in.  Plus, Parts, pipes, motors, pumps, power cables.  The weather has been perfect.

I'm sure these parts and materials are readily available after a 9.0 earthquake and tsunami have rocked their country destroying most buildings, stores, and manufacturers.  Oh and I'm sure that everything that is needed will be "off the shelf" since most plants use parts that are readily available at any time.  They spec' em' all the same right?

No cranes?  I use a gas powered fork truck, or move a EDG into place, strip out the MCC if water damaged, and tie into my critical loads. Or I manual haul them with chain falls.   Shorted?  I strip out the bus work, find the short, dry it out/fix it, or jumper around it.  Worst case, I put my diesel to the motor and power it directly.  hard wire it in.  wrong Voltage?  I rip the old pump/motor out, have a pump and skid already to put in place, and install it. Pipe damaged? cut it out and weld in another. or patch it.  or bypass it.  or rig/manufacture new.
They sat there and watched the expended fuel tank go dry when they have an ocean 100 yards away?  No one can figure out how to move water from point a to b in 4 days?  So now it catches on fire and it make the industry look like a bunch of clowns that don't know what they are doing.

They had 3 days to respond to get in front of the problems and it appears they did nothing.  
It should have seen a bee hive of activity over the weekend with EDG lighting up the night as fitters, welders, electricians work repairs in perfect weather. Maybe the Japan nuke industry is run by the government because usually you only see such extreme incompetency in a gov operation.

I'm sure all of this work is easily done without knowing how safe the given area is after some of these hydrogen explosions and radiation levels constantly changing.  Speculation is one thing but you may have taken it a bit far with this post.

I pray that these operators/engineers working around the clock to fix these problems will soon get this situation under control.  God help them as they have had one rough situation.  I can't even begin to imagine the type of conditions they are in.

[Cycoticpenguin]

My cape?  that is funny.  I guess the problem is "too hard".  I think the public having to flee the area thinks it is funny too because people that are paid to solve problems can't do their jobs.

See, there is nothing special about what I just described.  In a paper mill (and other similar plants) , this is standard weekend stuff to keep the mill running.  Of course, when the millwright didn't complete a weld the problem didn't extend pass the mill. But this plant should be in "paper mill" mode.  

Yeah,  I think they should just keep on doing what they are doing and eventually the core will cool down.  After  3 explosions all caught on tape, 2 completely trashed reactors, fire in expended fuel tank..no, two fires.  radiation releases.  High radiation alarms.  Contaminating an aircraft carrier 100 miles off shore.  Possible breach in the primary containment.  Plant looks like a yard sale.  Letting fuel run out of the EDG's.  The only thing we are missing is benny hill running around.  

Man, and people think Im dumb.... -.-


Your 90% experience on non-nuclear plants is taking its toll on your ability to think things through. It is a mess, no doubt. But until you hop on a plane and fly over there to help, keep your mouth shut until you decide to say something productive.


edit : did you really compare a paper mill to this situation??!

[JustinHEMI05]

Friends,

Let us not allow one troll distract us from what is important.

Justin

[Pman52]

Friends,

Let us not allow one troll distract us from what is important.

Justin

I agree Justin.  The support of the Japanese and their efforts to fix the reactors is more important.

I'd give you karma but I'm all out for the day...

[Nuke of the North]

They had 3 days to respond to get in front of the problems and it appears they did nothing.  

Maybe you can go over there and deliver that message personally to all those "slackers" who are volunteering as Rem sponges to clean up the mess. Volunteering, mind you, in the middle of a landscape of unimaginable devastation, where they no doubt have missing family and friends, and lives left in ruin.