Nuke AO or natural gas Maintenance?

[mwilliams145]

I'm 22 and just got out of the Navy after only two years of service (graduated nuclear power school, was medically retired for a service connected disability). I've done a lot of career hunting the past few months and potentially received two opportunities:

About 01AUG I was invited to interview for an operator position at a natural gas plant where the interviewer said that the interview was for the maintenance shop and operations, but they need in-house maintenance guys more than anything. I got the job (7am-3pm. It was a verbal offer last week, and pending HR contacting me for the physical and background check status.

Three days before the verbal offer, a nuclear company invited me to take the POSS/MASS test. I accepted the opportunity and just got my results back today in which I was recommended/passed the exams.
I may or may not get an interview, but no other utility has invited me to test the past few months I've been applying.

Operations is what I want to do, and it seems more dynamic/interesting so I'll enjoy my job better. However, money is money, and I need to build my resume in any case.

I've been reading these forums for about 4 years now, trying to understand what I was getting into by enlisting in the Navy, deciding to go nuke, and sooner than I meant to, seeing what to do now that I'm out. Does anybody have some sage advice from their years in utilities? The search function hasn't cleared up any fog in regards to what I'll be doing in maintenance, but it seems like it'll be relatively mind numbing and I won't be very satisfied with that kind of work. My old MMCS I still talk to recommended I take it while it's good, and I agree but I would like to be a little better prepared when I start working than when I joined the Navy (I had no idea what I was getting myself into, but it was a great experience).

At a nuclear utility I would be satisfied in Arkansas and New Orleans, they seem like both great places and AO positions would be just what At the natural gas utility there's always an opportunity to transfer within the company, and there's a fossil plant back home I could potentially go to if I get nostalgic.
Realistically it looks like I'm committed to this job for some time but I don't have a start date until HR contacts me.

tl;dr accidentally got into a fossil maintenance position(verbal offer), and potentially have a nuclear AO position in the works (invited and passed test, no interviews yet), how should I think about this?
What should I expect doing maintenance? Is it as mind numbing as I imagine?

Thank you guys for the help.

Edited for potential privacy

[Bradtv]

You sound like an excellent candidate for an AO, but the nuclear recruiting happens slowly.  This job may not be filled for a while... and as you said they may not even receive a call for an interview.  Given time (applying to utilities) however, you will most likely get an offer... can you wait for it if it doesn't come within the next 6 months?

I can't speak for maintenance work.  I don't know how much fossil maintenance experience you will get from this board either.  Operations will be challenging and rewarding at a Nuke plant.  If you are willing to work to advance (how do you feel about classroom training?), the potential pay is greater going nuclear.  There is plenty of money in natural gas, however, that can provide a good living.

At Entergy I would be satisfied in Arkansas and New Orleans, they seem like both great places and AO positions would be just what I think I want. The lower cost of living would be almost an automatic pay raise relative to working in NYC.

So was the offer for Waterford 3 or ANO?  Their other southern plants include Grand Gulf (MS and not currently hiring AOs) and Riverbend (north of Baton Rouge).  So this is how you should think about the potential nuke offer: can you wait for an offer if it comes later than expected and is possibly not where you want to be?

Good luck.

Disclaimer: My 2 cents is not "sage advice" from "years in utilities".

[mwilliams145]

You sound like an excellent candidate for an AO, but the nuclear recruiting happens slowly.  This job may not be filled for a while... and as you said they may not even receive a call for an interview.  Given time (applying to utilities) however, you will most likely get an offer... can you wait for it if it doesn't come within the next 6 months?

I can't speak for maintenance work.  I don't know how much fossil maintenance experience you will get from this board either.  Operations will be challenging and rewarding at a Nuke plant.  If you are willing to work to advance (how do you feel about classroom training?), the potential pay is greater going nuclear.  There is plenty of money in natural gas, however, that can provide a good living.

So was the offer for Waterford 3 or ANO?  Their other southern plants include Grand Gulf (MS and not currently hiring AOs) and Riverbend (north of Baton Rouge).  So this is how you should think about the potential nuke offer: can you wait for an offer if it comes later than expected and is possibly not where you want to be?

Good luck.

Disclaimer: My 2 cents is not "sage advice" from "years in utilities".

I appreciate the humbleness. Relative to me any advice is sage advice, haha.

The job posting was for strictly former Navy for Waterford 3 and Arkansas 1, possibly the Gulf Port plant but I can't lookup the job posting. If Gulf Port is anything like the people I met in Jackson I don't think I would mind. Interestingly enough two days before my invitation to test I received an email that the position was closed due to a business decision, but I wasn't the only person that showed up to test (one other former Navy STS or something,who didn't get that email, the other 2/3 individuals had to cancel/reschedule). It seemed odd, but maybe it was a CYA legal reason behind it. Regardless, waiting 6 months would be a little difficult. I don't think I could ask NRG to give me time, at least that much time. Not to mention I have bills. From my understanding getting a nuclear position is pretty slow moving, with  2-3 interviews before you get the yea or nay. I have about a month or so until I start working and who knows what'll happen.

The interviewer who hired me did 35 years in the nuclear utility industry and is retired. I asked him what I should expect should I get hired in regards to training and he said there would be none. He could've been interested in how I would react to that, though. I can't say I'm confident in being qualified for maintenance, and expressed this. I won't complain about being offered a job though.

The structure in the nuclear industry in regards to classroom instruction prior to letting new AO's loose in the plant and the procedures is very appealing to me, and more education and training is always a good thing. I have no problem building my resume or working through a clear cut flowchart for advancement. In fact, I would prefer it over being paranoid about nepotism or something, heh.

[Ksheed]

I can't speak for maintenance work.  I don't know how much fossil maintenance experience you will get from this board either.

In a power plant, maintenance is maintenance regardless of the fuel source. The only difference from fossil to nuclear would be the "nuclear way" of doing things. You would still be preforming p.m.'s, valve replacements/repacks, condenser work, pump work, heat exchangers, etc.. Typically a nuclear plant is much cleaner in terms of actual cleanliness especially against coal. The fossil plant would be less restrictive on work packages, tag-outs, work hour limitations and of course there are no Rad Worker restrictions i.e. stay times.

Keep in mind that Operations, regardless of the type of plant, is a rotating schedule. This can make life outside of work difficult to manage for some. For example: if you have kids and want to coach their summer ball team or even be able to go to all the games.

[mwilliams145]

In a power plant, maintenance is maintenance regardless of the fuel source. The only difference from fossil to nuclear would be the "nuclear way" of doing things. You would still be preforming p.m.'s, valve replacements/repacks, condenser work, pump work, heat exchangers, etc.. Typically a nuclear plant is much cleaner in terms of actual cleanliness especially against coal. The fossil plant would be less restrictive on work packages, tag-outs, work hour limitations and of course there are no Rad Worker restrictions i.e. stay times.

Keep in mind that Operations, regardless of the type of plant, is a rotating schedule. This can make life outside of work difficult to manage for some. For example: if you have kids and want to coach their summer ball team or even be able to go to all the games.

Thank you, that makes sense. Do you know how maintenance guys typically feel about their job in regards to satisfaction/regretting getting into I&C (if they're qualified) or AO, etc?

From my understanding the AO pipeline has a lot of advancement opportunities, to NLO, RO, SRO, etc. Is there comparable advancement with comparable benefits for maintenance guys, or should I look at it as a short term (as far as careers go) gig that should be understood as a stepping stone to something else?

I don't have a family or any other obligations that would interfere with rotating shiftwork, yet anyway.

[Bradtv]

The business decision is likely linked to their current revamp "Human Capital Management" which will include workforce reductions.  If they still need individuals in certain areas, however, they will hire them.

I also cannot speak for maintenance's advancement, but I have not seen much outside the occasional maintenance supervisor.  I should have known and expressed some of the info Ksheed offered.  I've known some maintenance folks who left the nuclear industry due to the "nuclear way" of getting stuff done... but not many.

[ddickey]

Rigger, Machinist, Welder or Millwright. These would be some of your choices in the maintenance department after you become a repairman. At least that is what it is like at some plants.

[Redleader]

I have worked in house at all of the southern Entergy nukes and I can tell you there are definite differences in "personality". My home was Waterford and it was by far the best to work at from an operators stand point. I am currently at ANO and it too has it's draws (people are good, management "interesting", area great). I would rather not comment on Grand Gulf or River Bend in a public forum. As far as HCM, yes there are cuts in the very near future, hopefully one will have my name on it. That being said Ops will never be cut and as a matter of fact will be hiring. You can't have too many operators.

[Ksheed]

Thank you, that makes sense. Do you know how maintenance guys typically feel about their job in regards to satisfaction/regretting getting into I&C (if they're qualified) or AO, etc?

From my understanding the AO pipeline has a lot of advancement opportunities, to NLO, RO, SRO, etc. Is there comparable advancement with comparable benefits for maintenance guys, or should I look at it as a short term (as far as careers go) gig that should be understood as a stepping stone to something else?

I don't have a family or any other obligations that would interfere with rotating shiftwork, yet anyway.

Most of the maintenance guys I am friends with are in the mechanical group. The general feelings of all the ones I know, Mechanical, Electrical, and I&C, is pretty much a coin flip. Some like it, some don't. Some want to move into management. Some can't wait to cross over to something else. Some don't want to do anything else (this one typically because they think managers are grossly abused).

There is room for advancement from maintenance. The window is smaller of course since there is less management positions compared to NLO, RO, SRO. Typical progression would be: Apprentice, Journeyman, Master Mechanic, Crew Supervisor, Superintendent, Manager. Something along those lines. There is also the ability to "cross over" for lack of a better word(s). A lot of maintenance guys move into scheduling, planning, QC, training, etc.. After "retirement" a lot of maintenance guys come back as a contractor and fill a field supervisor role on upgrade projects. They are highly sought after due to their knowledge of how to get things down and the ins and outs of the plant.

Note: The majority of the info given above relates to the Nuclear Industry, I only know a handful of guys that work at fossil plants. However, as I stated previously, when it comes to maintenance a power plant is a power plant. The only difference is if there are zoomies or not.

[Redleader]

ksheed, I have to disagree with you. Maintenance is not the same in a nuke as it is in a fossil plant. The work management process in place in most nukes is staggering. From the time a mechanic walks in until he hits the field (wrench time) can be anywhere from 2 to 5 hours, depending on tagout status, prejob briefs, management observers, etc. A tremendous amount of admin time and to be honest with you wasted time. Over the years when a guy screws up (it doesn't even have to be in your utility) a new process or barrier between you and work is put in place instead of taking corrective action with the guy that screwed up. Now, there are so many barriers it's hard to get any work done. What I see in the shops is a small percentage of people taking advantage of the confusion, another small percentage bullying their way through the process, and the majority getting fed up with it and doing EXACTELY what they are told.

[Ksheed]

ksheed, I have to disagree with you. Maintenance is not the same in a nuke as it is in a fossil plant. The work management process in place in most nukes is staggering. From the time a mechanic walks in until he hits the field (wrench time) can be anywhere from 2 to 5 hours, depending on tagout status, prejob briefs, management observers, etc. A tremendous amount of admin time and to be honest with you wasted time. Over the years when a guy screws up (it doesn't even have to be in your utility) a new process or barrier between you and work is put in place instead of taking corrective action with the guy that screwed up. Now, there are so many barriers it's hard to get any work done. What I see in the shops is a small percentage of people taking advantage of the confusion, another small percentage bullying their way through the process, and the majority getting fed up with it and doing EXACTELY what they are told.

I believe this was covered in my first post. The work is basically the same. The process of going to work is different.

In a power plant, maintenance is maintenance regardless of the fuel source. The only difference from fossil to nuclear would be the "nuclear way" of doing things. You would still be preforming p.m.'s, valve replacements/repacks, condenser work, pump work, heat exchangers, etc.. Typically a nuclear plant is much cleaner in terms of actual cleanliness especially against coal. The fossil plant would be less restrictive on work packages, tag-outs, work hour limitations and of course there are no Rad Worker restrictions i.e. stay times.
Keep in mind that Operations, regardless of the type of plant, is a rotating schedule. This can make life outside of work difficult to manage for some. For example: if you have kids and want to coach their summer ball team or even be able to go to all the games.

The fossil plants I am familiar with, which have different owners, do have pre-job briefs. They are not quite to the extent of a nuclear plant but they are there. Of course the owners also own nuclear plants. But, then again most do, do they not?

[mwilliams145]

Most of the maintenance guys I am friends with are in the mechanical group. The general feelings of all the ones I know, Mechanical, Electrical, and I&C, is pretty much a coin flip. Some like it, some don't. Some want to move into management. Some can't wait to cross over to something else. Some don't want to do anything else (this one typically because they think managers are grossly abused).

There is room for advancement from maintenance. The window is smaller of course since there is less management positions compared to NLO, RO, SRO. Typical progression would be: Apprentice, Journeyman, Master Mechanic, Crew Supervisor, Superintendent, Manager. Something along those lines. There is also the ability to "cross over" for lack of a better word(s). A lot of maintenance guys move into scheduling, planning, QC, training, etc.. After "retirement" a lot of maintenance guys come back as a contractor and fill a field supervisor role on upgrade projects. They are highly sought after due to their knowledge of how to get things down and the ins and outs of the plant.

Note: The majority of the info given above relates to the Nuclear Industry, I only know a handful of guys that work at fossil plants. However, as I stated previously, when it comes to maintenance a power plant is a power plant. The only difference is if there are zoomies or not.

Operations and maintenance seems too apple and oranges for me to be overthinking my career path. I feel that operations would be more dynamic and maintenance seems more repetitive.
Edited, to be more accurate to convey how I feel, albeit without experience or real knowledge, hence the thread, heh..

[RDTroja]

Operations and maintenance seems too apple and oranges for me to be overthinking my career path. I feel that operations would be a better fit and maintenance seems more like monkey work.

For someone that has posted their name and expected job location(s), you should be a bit more concerned about who you are referring to as monkeys... many of them carry wrenches and hammers and other 'weapony' things. In fact, you may have just failed an important intelligence test.

[Nuclear NASCAR]

Operations and maintenance seems too apple and oranges for me to be overthinking my career path. I feel that operations would be a better fit and maintenance seems more like monkey work.

(Taking off my moderator hat, putting on my hardhat)  I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt of being young, inexperienced, and just not knowing what you're talking about.  In the middle of the weekend when you need gas added to the switchyard breaker to keep the unit online, you're going to want those monkeys.  When a valve won't close, or your instrumentation needs calibrating, you're going to want those monkeys.  When the temperature is coming up and you need a circ pump overhauled in 2 weeks, you're going to want those monkeys, too. 

Everyone has a calling in life as to what they are going to do.  I don't look down on those who are hanging the tagging, opening breakers or switches to make my job safe.  They don't look down on me when I'm doing my monkey work to keep the plant running and make their job safer or easier. 

I don't feel that overthinking would be my first impression reading the above quoted post.  As always, I could be wrong.  (Hardhat off)

Take the experiences of those who have been there & done it.  One day 20 years down the road you may be the one giving the advice.

Peace,
Tom

[Ksheed]

Luckily most of us "monkeys" are pretty thick skinned.

[mwilliams145]

My apologies, I didn't mean it derogatorily.

[Higgs]

ksheed, I have to disagree with you. Maintenance is not the same in a nuke as it is in a fossil plant. The work management process in place in most nukes is staggering. From the time a mechanic walks in until he hits the field (wrench time) can be anywhere from 2 to 5 hours, depending on tagout status, prejob briefs, management observers, etc. A tremendous amount of admin time and to be honest with you wasted time. Over the years when a guy screws up (it doesn't even have to be in your utility) a new process or barrier between you and work is put in place instead of taking corrective action with the guy that screwed up. Now, there are so many barriers it's hard to get any work done. What I see in the shops is a small percentage of people taking advantage of the confusion, another small percentage bullying their way through the process, and the majority getting fed up with it and doing EXACTELY what they are told.

While I agree that there appears to be a lot of wasted times, and barriers to work, the industry record speaks for itself. It used to be a news making event, when a plant ran breaker to breaker.

Now it's news making if they do not.

You hear the same thing in Ops..., "back when we didn't have procedures or human performance tools...," to which I reply;

"you mean back when you tripped three times during one start up? Or damaged a core? Or couldn't stay online more than 90 days?"


Though it may appear to be a waste of time, or a lot of barriers, the fact is, the fleet is running better than it ever has.


Justin

[GLW]

...Though it may appear to be a waste of time, or a lot of barriers, the fact is, the fleet is running better than it ever has...

And it has to,...

33 nukes formerly on the grid have been shuttered,...

29 of those were shuttered in the years between 1960 and 2000,...

The last four have only been shuttered since 2010 and those four were due to poor management, poor planning, poor economics and,....imagine this,... poor maintenance execution,... or some combination of these,...

Of the 100 nukes currently on the grid, only 1% is < 20 years old,...

A full 22% are over 40 years old,..

Their average age is 33 years and their median age is 35 years old,...

For those 33 shuttered plants the average age was 17 years and the median was 16 years of age,...

I would say the proof of better everything is in those numbers, albeit we all do miss the bad old days when men were not afraid to shim or scram, but then, things evolve, and money does demand it's due, so we replace derring do with steady as she goes, and we go kill something furry on the weekend to feel, oh,... well words fail me, but to feel the way you feel after you kill something furry,...

Or explode fireworks, or hook fishes, or rock climb, or jump out of airplanes or whatever,...

A fire in the switchyard of your local dirt burner might make page three or four of the closest major newspaper within 50 miles,...

A fire in the switchyard of your friendly neighborhood nuke plant will make page one within fifty miles, page two within 200 hundred miles,...

Therefore it (ornery maintenance work orders at nuke plants) has to be,...

Anecdotally, there are not a small number of local union contractors who like to work the closest nukes, particularly for a long outage such as SGR,...

They like it because it's flat out safer, I don't know the numbers, there are a couple of guys around here that probationally do, but that is my observation from shooting the breeze with them as we wait for the snow to let up for the next cask move,...

I do appreciate Redleader's comments as being truthful, and to that I reply the OP does have a choice, and that ability to choose is the best part of working in this country, if you just don't like the rules at a nuke, go work where the rules are not,...

and above all,....

Enjoy the Day,....

[Nuclear NASCAR]

My apologies, I didn't mean it derogatorily.

Apology accepted.  I've been in contact with the original poster via PM & it appears that not asking probing questions on my part along with making assumptions (again on my part) led me to an incorrect conclusion.  I've copied a small part below and I must admit I wasn't familiar with referring to any workers as monkeys.  I apologize for being a part of the problem rather than the solution.  Even an old fart like me can learn hopefully.  (It's the remembering that is difficult.)    

I realize things are interpreted differently, and I hope you understand when I express that when in the Navy (which I'm not anymore) more than a few first class Petty Officers/Chiefs affectionately dubbed Machinist's Mates/future maintenance/mechanical operators monkeys, though expressing that we were better than that. You may or may not be familiar with this. I want to express that I didn't mean my statement to be derogatory at all. I don't know what the job of a maintenance person consists of, and I'm hoping to learn more about that via this forum and in my future professional life.

[Ksheed]

My apologies, I didn't mean it derogatorily.

No worries. Somebody's got to turn that wrench. "Knuckle-dragger" is another favorite.

Anecdotally, there are not a small number of local union contractors who like to work the closest nukes, particularly for a long outage such as SGR,...

They like it because it's flat out safer, I don't know the numbers, there are a couple of guys around here that probationally do, but that is my observation from shooting the breeze with them as we wait for the snow to let up for the next cask move,...

They are good for the EMR.