Questions about officer program

[ewharris57]

Hello,

To begin, I ship off to basic in a week. I am going enlisted and have done some minor research on the matter, however, I still have a few questions regarding getting picked up for OCS. First off, I have a bachelor's degree in Chemical Engineering. I personally felt that the thermo, heat transfer, etc. theory that I obtained while in school will help substantially. My main concern is whether or not I will be required to finish the nuke pipeline if I do get picked up for OCS. I understand that I need to submit my package for OCS as soon and often as possible. From what I've gathered from other posts, though, it seems that once I'm in OCS that I will basically abandon the pipeline from the point I got accepted. As a nuke officer would I really not finish all the required enlisted school? And if so, does that mean I would have zero field experience as an officer?

Also, if I do get picked up for officer, how long should I expect to be deployed? I've read that it's a 2 year sea tour (which will really piss my fiance off) followed by a 3 year shore tour. I may be mistaken on the length of time, but then again that's why I am asking.

[cheme09]

I've read that it's a 2 year sea tour (which will really piss my fiance off) followed by a 3 year shore tour. I may be mistaken on the length of time, but then again that's why I am asking.

You do realize, that depending on whatever rating you signed up for, your sea tours could be twice as long (or more), right?

[SpaceJustice]

If you're an enlisted nuke (submarines) your nominal sea tour is about 5 years until you make chief, and then it's shorter.  Submarine officers have a nominal 3 year sea tour.

[ewharris57]

No, I really have no concept of how long the sea tours will be. Also, I guess I should have stated that I am not going sub, but surface instead. If the tours are *gulp* four years, how long would I actually be at sea? I've read on other sites that you actually spend less than half of your tour at sea, however I would much rather hear from someone who has been there already before I make this decision. Thanks for all the info guys/girls, I really appreciate it.

[HeavyD]

I'm going to step in and ask the obvious;

Have you asked your recruiter?

As for how long you are actually at sea, that depends on several factors such as when is her next deployment, what hot spots are popping up in the world, etc, etc, etc.

As a first term surface Nuke, your initial sea tour is 54 months long.  That means you are scheduled to rotate off the ship 54 months after you arrive.  Having said that, there are several options for shortening your sea tour by accepting orders to other assignments.  these usually require you to have served a minimum amount of time on-board and be qualified senior-in-rate, along with any of the specific requirements for the new assignment.

Now here is the part that will sound rather snarky, but it needs to be said.  You and your fiance understand that you are volunteering to serve in the United States Navy, correct?  Serving in the Navy means being at SEA.  That's what the Navy does, we go to sea.  I encountered this sort of self-denial many times from my sailors during my 20 years.  If this is going to be a problem for either of you, you need to think long and hard about continuing on this road.

Best of luck to both of you!

[cheme09]

Judging on the information provided, I doubt the OP asked many questions before signing on the dotted line. 

To begin, I ship off to basic in a week.

He probably asked about OCS, the recruiter probably gave a round-about answer saying that it's possible without going into the details about how probable or when an package can be submitted.  Then, the OP willfully signed a contract.

[HydroDave63]

No, I really have no concept of how long the sea tours will be. Also, I guess I should have stated that I am not going sub, but surface instead. If the tours are *gulp* four years, how long would I actually be at sea? I've read on other sites that you actually spend less than half of your tour at sea, however I would much rather hear from someone who has been there already before I make this decision. Thanks for all the info guys/girls, I really appreciate it.

A wise poster once said:

Well, if he goes subs and gets a T-hull, he can probably get a choice of being there for the birth or the conception, but not both.......

[MMM]

Having just went through this stuff with a few of my students (STA-21, not OCS) you will continue on in the pipeline until you actually leave for OCS. You will most likely be put on the back burner if you are one of the limiting watches for the plant if you're expected to leave before you're going to qualify.

When you get to your ship, you'll spend about half the time out to sea. As mobilizing 5000 sailors is a real pain, there usually isn't too much change in the schedule unless something weird happens (hurricanes, starting military action, etc.). Most of your sea time will be work-ups which are about 1 week to 2 months long, with about 1 week to 2 months in port between them, followed by a 6-10 month deployment (most seem to be on the longer end of that these days), then a shipyard availability which is anywhere from 6 months to a year.

When you are in port, you will most likely be in 4 or 5 section duty (I've seen as few as 3 and as many as 6), so every 4th or 5th day you will spend 24 hours on the ship. Also as nukes, we do most of our work in port, as maintenance on an operating reactor is generally not preferred, so expect to work from 0730-1530 or so.

Apparently I'm feeling a little more helpful than normal.

[spekkio]

I am going enlisted and have done some minor research on the matter, however, I still have a few questions regarding getting picked up for OCS.

Well, it was kinda silly to research something AFTER you committed to it, ye-as?

First off, I have a bachelor's degree in Chemical Engineering. I personally felt that the thermo, heat transfer, etc. theory that I obtained while in school will help substantially. My main concern is whether or not I will be required to finish the nuke pipeline if I do get picked up for OCS.

You will not be eligible to apply to OCS until you get to your first sea command because you can't be within 6 months or 1 year of transfer (I can't remember which, but you can google the enlisted OCS application instruction). All of your training schools are at most 6 month orders.

Then after that you need to be onboard long enough to qualify and get the CO's endorsement (and I mean a real endorsement, not the standard faint praise 'xxx is recommended for commissioning,' which means being around long enough to get EPs on evals and raise your hand for leadership opportunities and big-boy collateral duties.

Realistically you're looking at 3-4 years of service minimum to finish schooling, get qualified, prove you're a hot running Sailor, and get the required recommendations. Then you have to be young enough to apply (under 27 waiverable to 29 with prior service for aviation/nfo, 29 waiverable to 31 with prior service for swo/subs).

If you want a commission, you should see if there's any way to back out of your enlistment, find an officer recruiter, and apply for a commissioning program directly assuming you meet the minimum GPA requirements.

I understand that I need to submit my package for OCS as soon and often as possible. From what I've gathered from other posts, though, it seems that once I'm in OCS that I will basically abandon the pipeline from the point I got accepted. As a nuke officer would I really not finish all the required enlisted school? And if so, does that mean I would have zero field experience as an officer?

If you get picked up for nuke officer, you will go through power school a second time. You'll probably be one of the guys who doesn't have to put in any extra study hours and plays a lot of golf while being at the top of the class. Some of the stuff will be new material and go into college level theory, but a lot of it will be repeat knowledge, particularly the operational stuff.

Most officers don't have 'field experience' as you put it, which I think you mean sea duty experience. The only areas where it would really help are 1) you wouldn't be going through the Navy culture shock while trying to also learn a new job 2) you'll have experienced some more CPOs/DIVOs and have an idea of what leadership techniques work/doesn't work from the deckplate level and 3) you'll have a little more street cred with the crewmembers as an Ensign/LTJG. By the time you've got a gold warfare device for about 6 months, though, it won't make much of a difference and people would only know you're prior enlisted if you told them.

It's not well represented in popular media, but there are two career tracks in the military (enlisted and officer). You can think of it as an officer is on the executive track at a company whereas enlisted Sailors are the 'doers' and can move into a foreman/branch manager type job eventually. There is a lot of institutional inertia that prevents moving between enlisted and officer; it's not something you get promoted to because you were doing a really good job. You have to put in an application and essentially leave your current career track, which is the Seaman to Master Chief track, to start over at square 1 in a new one as an Ensign. It is certainly doable, but if you already meet the criteria for a commission now, you are making it harder for yourself because you're going to have to now demonstrate being a top Sailor for a couple of years to get someone to sign off on your package.

Were you eligible for STA-21 and got picked up in prototype, you'd transfer to your university without completing prototype and attend college for 3 years, then start over in the nuke training pipeline once commissioned. But you're not eligible for the program because you already hold a degree.

Also, if I do get picked up for officer, how long should I expect to be deployed? I've read that it's a 2 year sea tour (which will really piss my fiance off) followed by a 3 year shore tour. I may be mistaken on the length of time, but then again that's why I am asking.

Enlisted sea tour is 52 months, followed by 36 month tours if you reenlist and keep going with approximately 2 year shore duties between them where you have to do an in-rate job (read: usually prototype instructor) to stay competitive for promotion. Officer tours for subs are 32 month divo, 32 month DH, 18 month XO, 24 mo CO, with approximately 2 year shore duties between them where the post JO shore duty can be anything, but post DH/XO/CO jobs you are expected to start doing squadron and staff jobs to stay eligible for promotion and learn how 'big Navy' works. Conventional SWOs have a split divo tour where they transfer you after 18 months when you qualify and you do a big-boy JO job for 24 months (as a nuke SWO you attend power school inbetween those tours and the 2nd tour will be a nuke DIVO job on a carrier/standing watch in the plant), total of 42 months for a divo tour. Shore duties work essentially the same for SWOs as far as 2-ish years between sea duty tours. I'm not sure how the DH and above sea tours work (I believe there is a split in there as well), but if you go SWO you'll find out eventually and can make a decision to stay in the pipeline or not. You also attend tactical schools prior to reporting as DH, XO, and CO.

These are 'nominal' sea tour times and can vary depending on the mission and manning, with much much more latitude to change enlisted timing. The officer timing can only vary by a few months because you have to keep hitting your career milestones by a certain time in service to be eligible for promotion.

[GLW]

....It's not well represented in popular media, but there are two career tracks in the military (enlisted and officer). You can think of it as an officer is on the executive track at a company whereas enlisted Sailors are the 'doers' and can move into a foreman/branch manager type job eventually. There is a lot of institutional inertia that prevents moving between enlisted and officer; it's not something you get promoted to because you were doing a really good job. You have to put in an application and essentially leave your current career track, which is the Seaman to Master Chief track, to start over at square 1 in a new one as an Ensign.....

and then there's Warrant Officer,...

[jams723]

The elephant in the room question... As you are degreed, why did you go enlisted vice going to an officer type recruiter?

[Gamecock]

and then there's Warrant Officer,...

We have done away with nuclear warrant officers.  We still have them, but we won't be making any more.

Cheers,
GC

[GLW]

We have done away with nuclear warrant officers.  We still have them, but we won't be making any more.

Cheers,
GC

Well, that is a sad turn of events,...

but then, things change,...

[Frank Cable]

The elephant in the room question... As you are degreed, why did you go enlisted vice going to an officer type recruiter?

Ditto. It baffles me why someone who worked so hard to get a respectable degree would take the enlisted route.

[HydroDave63]

The elephant in the room question... As you are degreed, why did you go enlisted vice going to an officer type recruiter?

Fleet needs more A-Gang!^TM 

[Marlin]

Ditto. It baffles me why someone who worked so hard to get a respectable degree would take the enlisted route.

   When I went through the pipeline there were a lot of degreed enlisted but that was "70" I am curious what ratio of the enlisted class is degreed today. I suspect with no draft or Vietnam it is much lower. I was section six of twelve and only three of us had no college, section twelve was mostly degreed students. Also curious if scores and previous education still dictates what class you are placed in.

[GLW]

Ditto. It baffles me why someone who worked so hard to get a respectable degree would take the enlisted route.

because in today's economy "respectable degree" does not translate to "respectable income",...

and the competition for an officer slot puts you in competition with all the other degreed types, many of whom have better GPA's,...

and the college loans payments come due every month,...

[spekkio]

There were a lot of enlisted nukes showing up to ustafish with degrees. Asking them about it, it was a combination of:

1) Bad job market. Even a competitive degree isn't enough, you need experience and if you didn't use your spare time to get an internship in college, well...
2) They needed money pronto, and officer applications can take up to a year from start to getting paid. They could enlist and be paid by next month plus get student loan repayments.
3) They walked into an enlisted recruiting station and were told that they had a realistic expectation that they could commission out of prototype, so to alleviate problem #2 they enlisted only to find out that they couldn't apply for OCS in prototype and that once the Navy has you, it's harder to get into OCS.
4) They didn't understand the whole officer/enlisted difference thing and what that actually meant and what the difference in payscales or career milestones were. They didn't do any thorough research on the interwebs, and the enlisted recruiter wasn't about to explain it to them.
5) The enlisted recruiter told them that they needed a 3.5+ gpa to commission and they believed him.
6) By the time they've got the credibility to apply for OCS, they're 1-2 years away from EAOS and just want to get the hell out if they could even meet the physical fitness requirements (they don't let you get away with 1/4 pushups at OCS and the person doing a rope-and-choke isn't going to stick his thumb under the tape for the neck measurement).
7) They got talked into thinking that it would be better to have enlisted experience before commissioning.

So yea, pick one (or a few).

[Marlin]

There were a lot of enlisted nukes showing up to ustafish with degrees. Asking them about it, it was a combination of:

1) Bad job market. Even a competitive degree isn't enough, you need experience and if you didn't use your spare time to get an internship in college, well...
2) They needed money pronto, and officer applications can take up to a year from start to getting paid. They could enlist and be paid by next month plus get student loan repayments.
3) They walked into an enlisted recruiting station and were told that they had a realistic expectation that they could commission out of prototype, so to alleviate problem #2 they enlisted only to find out that they couldn't apply for OCS in prototype and that once the Navy has you, it's harder to get into OCS.
4) They didn't understand the whole officer/enlisted difference thing and what that actually meant and what the difference in payscales or career milestones were. They didn't do any thorough research on the interwebs, and the enlisted recruiter wasn't about to explain it to them.
5) The enlisted recruiter told them that they needed a 3.5+ gpa to commission and they believed him.
6) By the time they've got the credibility to apply for OCS, they're 1-2 years away from EAOS and just want to get the hell out if they could even meet the physical fitness requirements (they don't let you get away with 1/4 pushups at OCS and the person doing a rope-and-choke isn't going to stick his thumb under the tape for the neck measurement).
7) They got talked into thinking that it would be better to have enlisted experience before commissioning.

So yea, pick one (or a few).

Excellent synopsis it was true in my day as well.

[Marlin]

Excellent synopsis it was true in my day as well.

Well maybe not the PT part we had a few chiefs we nicknamed "Shut Light" because they blocked out all the light from behind while passing through a watertight hatch.

[GLW]

There were a lot of enlisted nukes showing up to ustafish with degrees. Asking them about it, it was a combination of:

1) Bad job market. Even a competitive degree isn't enough, you need experience and if you didn't use your spare time to get an internship in college, well...
2) They needed money pronto, and officer applications can take up to a year from start to getting paid. They could enlist and be paid by next month plus get student loan repayments............

Excellent synopsis it was true in my day as well.

1977-1982 all over again,...

but not me!!!!!

I enlisted for the adventure,....

and the really cool medal my uncle had in his picture case: